Eurobasket 2022 Finals : SPAIN are European champions!!!

[sunsbg]

Ideally they should get rid of this naturalization BS and countries will put emphasis on developing their own youth rather than go the easy way of buying an American player to represent a country he doesn't know anything about.

[Chuck Diesel]

As Europe’s best hoops journalist Dontas Urbanas said on his podcast today, take your complaints to your country’s national basketball administration and demand they implore FIBA to make a change. Continuing to bitch year after year into the ether has proven useless & ruins the vibe for everyone who’s just trying to enjoy basketball.

[raptor jesus]

I, for one, enjoy seeing these obscure journeymen guys like Lorenzo Brown get some shine in international competition. Also, if your team is getting torched by Lorenzo Brown, the first place you should look probably isn't the FIBA rulebook - it's the mirror.

[homecourtloss]

Lorenzo Brown has represented both the U.S. and Spain very well. Happy for him. Americans have done nothing but enhance the quality of this tournament for 30 years, both on the court and from the sideline, and all Euros do is bitch about them. Change the rules or develop some players of your own.

Lorenzo Brown is an above average main rotation point guard in the EuroLeague. There are probably hundreds of American players that have played in Europe that were better than him.

Out of those hundreds of better Americans than Brown that have played in Europe since World War II, only two (Wayne Brabender / Nikos Galis) have won a EuroBasket MVP, and that happened decades ago.

You make it sound like every EuroBasket MVP was American............when it was two players over nine decades. A whole 2 Americans in 9 decades........

Nice try, but you still really need to work on your trolling shtick.

What was he in the NBA?

[lambchop]

Lorenzo Brown has represented both the U.S. and Spain very well. Happy for him. Americans have done nothing but enhance the quality of this tournament for 30 years, both on the court and from the sideline, and all Euros do is bitch about them. Change the rules or develop some players of your own.

Lorenzo Brown is an above average main rotation point guard in the EuroLeague. There are probably hundreds of American players that have played in Europe that were better than him.

Out of those hundreds of better Americans than Brown that have played in Europe since World War II, only two (Wayne Brabender / Nikos Galis) have won a EuroBasket MVP, and that happened decades ago.

You make it sound like every EuroBasket MVP was American............when it was two players over nine decades. A whole 2 Americans in 9 decades........

Nice try, but you still really need to work on your trolling shtick.

What was he in the NBA?

NBA performance isn't a good indicator of how good a player might be in FIBA play. Brown is too short to/ not athletic enough for his style of play to translate to the NBA. Those close range pullups in traffic are getting blocked in the league. Someone like Kawhi can do that in the NBA but not brown.

However, against less athletic guys like in Eurobasket he has been dominant with that. Will be interesting to see if he can pull that off against the French team. Shouldn't be an issue against Heurtel.

[thomchatt3rton]

I root for France (France and Greece) but it’s hard to pick them tomorrow. They’re so unpredictable.

They have very good talent and can play absolute lockdown defense when they want to.

But they have a tendency to beat themselves: to waste possessions, and to make bad decisions.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Dirk]

Lorenzo Brown is an above average main rotation point guard in the EuroLeague. There are probably hundreds of American players that have played in Europe that were better than him.

Out of those hundreds of better Americans than Brown that have played in Europe since World War II, only two (Wayne Brabender / Nikos Galis) have won a EuroBasket MVP, and that happened decades ago.

You make it sound like every EuroBasket MVP was American............when it was two players over nine decades. A whole 2 Americans in 9 decades........

Nice try, but you still really need to work on your trolling shtick.

What was he in the NBA?

NBA performance isn't a good indicator of how good a player might be in FIBA play. Brown is too short to/ not athletic enough for his style of play to translate to the NBA. Those close range pullups in traffic are getting blocked in the league. Someone like Kawhi can do that in the NBA but not brown.

However, against less athletic guys like in Eurobasket he has been dominant with that. Will be interesting to see if he can pull that off against the French team. Shouldn't be an issue against Heurtel.

Isn't Shane Larkin a huge star in Europe?

He didn't look like the prototype that would flourish over there.

Honestly, a small minority of users do a disservice to FIBA, because they have this delusional idea of FIBA > NBA, when simply by looking at the NBA scrubs that are signed by these countries to play for them would hint at the massive gulf in level between FIBA and NBA.

Anyway, if Don Lorenzo finishes the job tomorrow and becomes MVP, it'll be a really bad look for Fiba and Eurobasket. A great testament to Scariolo's ability though and Spain's competitive DNA. I read that Spain weren't supposed to even make it past the 1st elimination round, so they're a bit of a cinderella story and will become local legends if they win it feels like.

[Nuntius]

What was he in the NBA?

NBA performance isn't a good indicator of how good a player might be in FIBA play. Brown is too short to/ not athletic enough for his style of play to translate to the NBA. Those close range pullups in traffic are getting blocked in the league. Someone like Kawhi can do that in the NBA but not brown.

However, against less athletic guys like in Eurobasket he has been dominant with that. Will be interesting to see if he can pull that off against the French team. Shouldn't be an issue against Heurtel.

Isn't Shane Larkin a huge star in Europe?

He didn't look like the prototype that would flourish over there.

Honestly, a small minority of users do a disservice to FIBA, because they have this delusional idea of FIBA > NBA, when simply by looking at the NBA scrubs that are signed by these countries to play for them would hint at the massive gulf in level between FIBA and NBA.

Anyway, if Don Lorenzo finishes the job tomorrow and becomes MVP, it'll be a really bad look for Fiba and Eurobasket. A great testament to Scariolo's ability though and Spain's competitive DNA. I read that Spain weren't supposed to even make it past the 1st elimination round, so they're a bit of a cinderella story and will become local legends if they win it feels like.

There is no reasonable argument about whether or not the NBA is the strongest league in the world. It clearly is. That's why the best international players play in the NBA. It is the strongest and richest league in the world so it will naturally draw the best players. Yes, there are a couple of stans who will try to claim otherwise in their crusader to prove that their beloved player is the best ever but, as I said, that's not a reasonable argument.

That said, there is a significantly larger (still a minority but it's more than just a couple of stans) percentage of posters in here who claim that they prefer the style and the rule-set of FIBA games more than the style and the rule-set of the NBA game. And, frankly, that argument isn't even mainly pushed by European posters. It is mainly pushed by Americans who do not like the current format of the NBA (either they deem the game "too soft", they don't like the way it's reffed, they don't like the emphasis on 3-point shooting, you name it).

I believe that we need to differentiate between the two arguments.

[minami]

As a spaniard I´m also 'not totally comfortable' with the Brown´s thing for the obvious reasons (though not 'my fault' at all, this happening since ages across the sports, and actually not that clearly 'a game changer/competitively unfair' given both Rubio and Llull are out for health reasons), but really wish the 'asterisk brigade' bore off tomorrow while walking their dogs - or whatever life they have left out of this (not my words) 'irrelevant' basketball event. There is some pretty great basketball happening imo, and there is no need to steal the whole show because fricking Lorenzo Brown delivered along with second tiers from Spain while Jokic, Doncic, Giannis et al just didn´t.

*I still find a decaying Spain doing this to be pretty epic, Scariolo´s trick regarding Brown included!

[minami]

May the best win tomorrow, but I´m pretty much ok at this point as a fan.

[Taikuri]

One, is the people who thinks like:
"Ey... if they have Harden + KD + Irving, and each of them usually score 30 ppg, when combined and added to the rest of the team, the Nets are probably scoring 160+ points each night, and winning the ring easy"

Then there are other people who actually understands how basketball works.
Basketball is not just the addition of each player skills in the team: Chemistry, adjustment, confidence, coaching, heart, strategy, experience... matters. And many more. Germany had the best players on the paper, I give you that.
But when there are 4 teams who have made their way to the semifinals, saying one of them has 99% chances of winning it all is, let's say to be polite, too risky.
It's not only that they haven't won the Tournament... they have been unable to win even the semifinal. And, in a world were Germany would have defeated Spain, doesn't matter that they already beat France by 13 points before, in the groups stage. They can totally lose the re-match, where a lot of adjustments would be made, and probably each team has learnt a lot since, and their confidence can be higher or lower... Or maybe just coaches didnt show all their cards on the groups stage game?

Never underestimate the heart of a champion.

Well, it was a tongue in cheek post. Of course before the game I thought there is a better chance than 1% for Spain to win that game, but I did think that Germany was a massive favorite. I guess my tongue in cheek exaggeration came from the fact that I just dislike it when Spain has a full American there with no link to Spain. Don't tell me "it's in the rules". It's completely honorless move from Spain. Lorenzo Brown happens to be Spain's MVP. This American carried Spain to medals. Two months ago he wasn't Spanish. Is it actually instead of team Spain, team USA+some dudes from Spain or what is it? It's a mess. If some Spanish people feel happy about their medal, well in my opinion it's a fake medal. Just think where this Spanish team would be without Lorenzo Brown. Not on medals, that's for sure.

[Dirk]

NBA performance isn't a good indicator of how good a player might be in FIBA play. Brown is too short to/ not athletic enough for his style of play to translate to the NBA. Those close range pullups in traffic are getting blocked in the league. Someone like Kawhi can do that in the NBA but not brown.

However, against less athletic guys like in Eurobasket he has been dominant with that. Will be interesting to see if he can pull that off against the French team. Shouldn't be an issue against Heurtel.

Isn't Shane Larkin a huge star in Europe?

He didn't look like the prototype that would flourish over there.

Honestly, a small minority of users do a disservice to FIBA, because they have this delusional idea of FIBA > NBA, when simply by looking at the NBA scrubs that are signed by these countries to play for them would hint at the massive gulf in level between FIBA and NBA.

Anyway, if Don Lorenzo finishes the job tomorrow and becomes MVP, it'll be a really bad look for Fiba and Eurobasket. A great testament to Scariolo's ability though and Spain's competitive DNA. I read that Spain weren't supposed to even make it past the 1st elimination round, so they're a bit of a cinderella story and will become local legends if they win it feels like.

There is no reasonable argument about whether or not the NBA is the strongest league in the world. It clearly is. That's why the best international players play in the NBA. It is the strongest and richest league in the world so it will naturally draw the best players. Yes, there are a couple of stans who will try to claim otherwise in their crusader to prove that their beloved player is the best ever but, as I said, that's not a reasonable argument.

That said, there is a significantly larger (still a minority but it's more than just a couple of stans) percentage of posters in here who claim that they prefer the style and the rule-set of FIBA games more than the style and the rule-set of the NBA game. And, frankly, that argument isn't even mainly pushed by European posters. It is mainly pushed by Americans who do not like the current format of the NBA (either they deem the game "too soft", they don't like the way it's reffed, they don't like the emphasis on 3-point shooting, you name it).

I believe that we need to differentiate between the two arguments.

Important point made.

While I we may read a few niche opinions about FIBA>NBA (aesthetically) and that's fine, since it's just about "taste" and subjectivity, it's still very outlandish.

If FIBA style basketball was indeed better on the eye or a better brand of the sport, it would draw more viewers. It appears that basketball in Europe makes huge losses (Real, Barcelona lose tens of millions of euros) and I see that clubs in Greece, Turkey, Russia... likely are just banked by the owners.

That highly suggests that there isn't a market there for it (paying fans, tv money)... there isn't an audience to match the spending of the big clubs.

I guess you can even point out this whole "let's give citizenship to foreign guy to play for our team"... which points to countries not having enough talent (people playing) to draw from.

Imagine you had someone who never watched basketball and landed here from Mars. You showed them Euroleague basketball. And NBA basketball. More likely than not... they'd prefer the latter. The reasons are obvious... athleticism and skill. It doesn't even feel like the same sport at times.

I think some may just get caught up in the moment as they're watching an international tournament, where it's tense and it's one and done... and then they draw comparisons to NBA where we have 82 games in a regular season and then 7 game series. I guess to sum up my point... if anyone genuinely thinks FIBA>NBA, they probably should be aware of how much of a niche opinion that is.

I say to those who love FIBA: Just enjoy it. You don't have to compare the two brands of the sport and provoke reactions and leave folks like me dumbfounded.

[Taikuri]

Lorenzo Brown holding that Eurobasket MVP trophy will be the perfect conclusion of what a clown show the Fiba has become.

My feeling is that if Spain wins gold and Lorenzo brown scores 40 points and 10 assists, FIBA will still give the MVP trophy to Willy Hernangomez, just to save face.

The only reason I'd want Spain to win that final is for that to make FIBA to wake up when they finally realize that this is doing too much damage to international basketball. I wish that FIBA would put in more details into this player naturalization rule, so there has to be some kind of small connection from a player to a specific country. Just a small link to a country is enough for me. It would be a good start.

In reality I hope that France takes the final, although I'm going to dislike team France+Embiid next year. All it does is it challenges team USA better, but it just does harm to other teams in the competition. Embiid never lived in France nor has any roots in France. Apparently speaking French language is good enough reason to naturalize a player. Well does this also mean that Canada can naturalize any French player and vice verca. There are many French speaking countries in the world. It's also not the hardest language to learn for anyone, so I guess that France can naturalize anyone if they choose to learn to speak French. Let English speaking countries do the same. People who are born with English as their first language can be taken by any other English speaking country. The rule is one naturalized player per team. So this Embiid in team France logic would also mean that team UK should get some NBA superstar who isn't good enough to be on USA's best on best team and so on. I'm aware that anyone can naturalize anyone who hasn't represented another country on men's level, but my point is that there is no honor in that

[wco81]

I think it would be fun to have US vs. the World competition. Or maybe North America vs. the World.

Only problem with that is it might just be another exhibition, like the All Star Game, so there would be no defense played, people would prioritize avoiding injuries.

[Taikuri]

To make things worse the Fiba has given too many spots for other continents in their world championship tournament, when it's clear these European teams need to have more spots reserved to them than they do now. Therefore some quite strong European teams may be reduced to playing one tournament per 4 years now, which is why nearly every team has now signed a foreigner, to be able to compete in this dumb new Fiba format.

That's very true. The countries that abuse this rule in the worst way, such as Slovenia, Croatia and Spain to mention a few, their main goal is to actually get these naturalized players to help their national teams to get past the qualifiers. This leaves some teams who are not abusing this rule out of these tournaments. So these "more honest teams" have to start cheating as well to match this cheating that is going on. The rules right not allow cheating and we can see which countries are the worst and most blatant in abusing this rule. Spain went to ask their ministry if it's OK to give Lorenzo Brown a passport on short notice and the ministry said, "no problem, nothing wrong with that".

Next up on FIBA's rule book. One player per team is allowed to use doping. Is this a lot worse? In my opinion it's not.

[Taikuri]

The 1 american/team rule has been there forever, remember Anthony Randolph playing for Slovenia, or McCaleb for Macedonia FYROM, like it or not doesn't make sense complaining now.

Everyone remembers them. It makes sense to complain about it now and forever until they do something about it. It will continue to be a topic of discussion until then. Eventually FIBA will do something about it. Me and many others are wondering what is taking so long in doing something about it.

Problem for me aren't cases where someone's one grand parent has a connection to another country, so that person's grandson can represent another country. That's actually fine with me, because there are far worse cases who never spent one second in another country and some of them even have admitted that they don't know where their new country is on the world map, but they will still take the passport, because they will get paid.

[minami]

I say to those who love FIBA: Just enjoy it

We are "just" trying to do it thanks, as seemingly does Dirk attending last night. Most of us Europeans are not pretending the Eurobasket or FIBA is on a higher level than the NBA at all, even if there´s something perversely rewarding at the sight of NBA stars and MVP´s failing at FIBA every time lately, or a bunch of unknown spaniards putting some fear on Lebron´s face at two consecutive Olympics. Just let us be/dream, and respect a 'culture' which also happens to be a significant feeding ground for NBA´s stardom.

You don't have to compare the two brands of the sport and provoke reactions

I have not read the whole argument and think (again) that obviously the NBA is on a significantly higher level than FIBA, but "comparing the two brands" is exactly what you´re doing in your post. I do of course welcome a healthy debate but this thread is imo suffocatingly crowded/owned by people who seem to borderline hate this Eurobasket event for a variety of reasons, the actual game almost totally lost in the dark side-alleys.

[Taikuri]

Well, I think to a lot of people, Slovenian gold definitely has an asterisk because of Randolph. Same with Russian one and Holden. All these medals have huge Asterisks, always had been. Spain knew what they were doing and what people will say, this is not new.

Sorry, but it isn't our fault Spain didnt decide to ride this tournament the respectable route. Yes, not one player wins tournaments,
but Brown was incredibly instrumental to winning, maybe Spain would have won without Brown, but we will never know this, and this is not out fault.

Yes, guys like Diaz and other Spanish players need all respect they could get, but guys like Arnas Butkevicius, Kostas Papanikolau, Krunoslav Simon, Lauri Markannen, also do, all these players played their hearts out also, the difference that most of these teams didnt recruit a closer star player at the last second just to boost their chances.

Spain team is great, but this is prime example of ''A Spoonful of Tar Spoils a Barrel of Honey '', this is exactly what it is.

I am sorry, I dont want this thread to get mean, but thats just how I feel and I know I am not the only one.

I am from Finland. My observation from the Lithuania vs Spain game was this. The game was very close, but Spain had a difference making player in Lorenzo Brown, who isn't Spanish and who has no connections to Spain. By a special request by the Spanish basketball federation Spanish ministry did the unhonorable thing of giving this American player an express Spanish passport. Great ministry! Spanish players wouldn't be in this tournament anymore without this American player. Lithuania would be playing for medals now instead of Spain, because on the next round Lithuania would have beaten Finland in my opinion.

[Battletrigger]

To make things worse the Fiba has given too many spots for other continents in their world championship tournament, when it's clear these European teams need to have more spots reserved to them than they do now. Therefore some quite strong European teams may be reduced to playing one tournament per 4 years now, which is why nearly every team has now signed a foreigner, to be able to compete in this dumb new Fiba format.

That's very true. The countries that abuse this rule in the worst way, such as Slovenia, Croatia and Spain to mention a few, their main goal is to actually get these naturalized players to help their national teams to get past the qualifiers. This leaves some teams who are not abusing this rule out of these tournaments. So these "more honest teams" have to start cheating as well to match this cheating that is going on. The rules right not allow cheating and we can see which countries are the worst and most blatant in abusing this rule. Spain went to ask their ministry if it's OK to give Lorenzo Brown a passport on short notice and the ministry said, "no problem, nothing wrong with that".

Next up on FIBA's rule book. One player per team is allowed to use doping. Is this a lot worse? In my opinion it's not.

It's not in Europe where you usually see those magic muscle gains in two months of off-season.

[Battletrigger]

Well, I think to a lot of people, Slovenian gold definitely has an asterisk because of Randolph. Same with Russian one and Holden. All these medals have huge Asterisks, always had been. Spain knew what they were doing and what people will say, this is not new.

Sorry, but it isn't our fault Spain didnt decide to ride this tournament the respectable route. Yes, not one player wins tournaments,
but Brown was incredibly instrumental to winning, maybe Spain would have won without Brown, but we will never know this, and this is not out fault.

Yes, guys like Diaz and other Spanish players need all respect they could get, but guys like Arnas Butkevicius, Kostas Papanikolau, Krunoslav Simon, Lauri Markannen, also do, all these players played their hearts out also, the difference that most of these teams didnt recruit a closer star player at the last second just to boost their chances.

Spain team is great, but this is prime example of ''A Spoonful of Tar Spoils a Barrel of Honey '', this is exactly what it is.

I am sorry, I dont want this thread to get mean, but thats just how I feel and I know I am not the only one.

I am from Finland. My observation from the Lithuania vs Spain game was this. The game was very close, but Spain had a difference making player in Lorenzo Brown, who isn't Spanish and who has no connections to Spain. By a special request by the Spanish basketball federation Spanish ministry did the unhonorable thing of giving this American player an express Spanish passport. Great ministry! Spanish players wouldn't be in this tournament anymore without this American player. Lithuania would be playing for medals now instead of Spain, because on the next round Lithuania would have beaten Finland in my opinion.

You will never know how I hate to defend Spain in a international forum.

But you are talking about hipotheticals like they'd be facts, and that is a fallacy.

I cannot give an opinion about the Spanish ministry, I don't know if he is good or bad, but of course he has achieved his goal, Spain will be gold or silver.

And man, make you a favour and don't say in the same post that you are from Finland and then talk about unhonorable. You have been a neutral country for decades because that was profitable for your country but at the first danger sight you ask a express NATO membership.