Eurobasket 2022 Finals : SPAIN are European champions!!!

[Pachinko_]

Important point made.

While I we may read a few niche opinions about FIBA>NBA (aesthetically) and that's fine, since it's just about "taste" and subjectivity, it's still very outlandish.

If FIBA style basketball was indeed better on the eye or a better brand of the sport, it would draw more viewers. It appears that basketball in Europe makes huge losses (Real, Barcelona lose tens of millions of euros) and I see that clubs in Greece, Turkey, Russia... likely are just banked by the owners.

That highly suggests that there isn't a market there for it (paying fans, tv money)... there isn't an audience to match the spending of the big clubs.

I guess you can even point out this whole "let's give citizenship to foreign guy to play for our team"... which points to countries not having enough talent (people playing) to draw from.

Imagine you had someone who never watched basketball and landed here from Mars. You showed them Euroleague basketball. And NBA basketball. More likely than not... they'd prefer the latter. The reasons are obvious... athleticism and skill. It doesn't even feel like the same sport at times.

I think some may just get caught up in the moment as they're watching an international tournament, where it's tense and it's one and done... and then they draw comparisons to NBA where we have 82 games in a regular season and then 7 game series. I guess to sum up my point... if anyone genuinely thinks FIBA>NBA, they probably should be aware of how much of a niche opinion that is.

I say to those who love FIBA: Just enjoy it. You don't have to compare the two brands of the sport and provoke reactions and leave folks like me dumbfounded.

As a strong supporter of the niche opinion I'll take a moment to explain.

First of all if you narrow down the audience to only the hardcore basketball fans and exclude the casuals (like the Martians in your post above) you will find that among the fanatics my opinion is not as niche as you'd think, there are many of us out there. Why?

Because, to use a metaphor, when I want to eat beef I only want to eat beef, I don't want to eat the whole cow with the bones and everything. The regular season in the NBA is full of games that are a total waste of my time. So why can't I only watch the good games? Because I don't know which ones they are! I mean, the NBA literally insentivises losing, how do I know which team has just made a decision to start losing from now on? I don't. Why would I want to watch a game that one (or both) teams have decided they want to lose? I wouldn't.

Furthermore, the NBA has a totally unrealistic number of games that once upon a time teams and players tried to win as many as they can (I mean hell, they even tried hard in all star games back then), but clearly not any more. And you can see it by the numbers of stars and starters who are clearly on a resting rotational schedule. I mean if you are really a fanatic, you know that Giannis is not regularly injured one game out of five that he consistently misses the last 3 years. He's just resting. Because winning a random game in November means next to nothing to him ot his team. Why would I want to watch a game that my team doesnt really GAF about? I wouldn't.

If you really are a fanatic, you can easily detect the variances in effort levels from game to game. Do me a favour and watch the 10min highlights on YouTube from the regular season games between BOS and MIL last year, and then immediately watch the highlights from the 7 game series those teams played a few months later. It makes the former look like a bad joke, little more than a friendly game type effort. Why do I want to watch a friendly during some ungodly hour because I'm overseas? I don't. Mind you, this is not me being stubborn or trying to prove a point, I am literally catching myself being unable to watch half of the games, I try and I can't, it's boring to me. Did I get bored when Doncic was shooting himself with painkiller injections to win a do or die FIBA game? No. That's the type of effort (and game) I want to see.

I'm not even getting into the refs and finger - **** the rules of the game, forget it, that's a whole other chapter.

Now, you want to eat the entire cow? Sure. Maybe you want to watch the rookies, or a guy from your country? sure. I'm not judging, I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just explaining myself: its not enough for me to watch a game because it's the best players, I just don't have the patience for meaningless games or games without a certain level of effort, importance and competitiveness.

Maybe I should only watch the playoffs? Yea, I probably will do that.

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

[Chuck Diesel]

Important point made.

While I we may read a few niche opinions about FIBA>NBA (aesthetically) and that's fine, since it's just about "taste" and subjectivity, it's still very outlandish.

If FIBA style basketball was indeed better on the eye or a better brand of the sport, it would draw more viewers. It appears that basketball in Europe makes huge losses (Real, Barcelona lose tens of millions of euros) and I see that clubs in Greece, Turkey, Russia... likely are just banked by the owners.

That highly suggests that there isn't a market there for it (paying fans, tv money)... there isn't an audience to match the spending of the big clubs.

I guess you can even point out this whole "let's give citizenship to foreign guy to play for our team"... which points to countries not having enough talent (people playing) to draw from.

Imagine you had someone who never watched basketball and landed here from Mars. You showed them Euroleague basketball. And NBA basketball. More likely than not... they'd prefer the latter. The reasons are obvious... athleticism and skill. It doesn't even feel like the same sport at times.

I think some may just get caught up in the moment as they're watching an international tournament, where it's tense and it's one and done... and then they draw comparisons to NBA where we have 82 games in a regular season and then 7 game series. I guess to sum up my point... if anyone genuinely thinks FIBA>NBA, they probably should be aware of how much of a niche opinion that is.

I say to those who love FIBA: Just enjoy it. You don't have to compare the two brands of the sport and provoke reactions and leave folks like me dumbfounded.

As a strong supporter of the niche opinion I'll take a moment to explain.

First of all if you narrow down the audience to only the hardcore basketball fans and exclude the casuals (like the Martians in your post above) you will find that among the fanatics my opinion is not as niche as you'd think, there are many of us out there. Why?

Because, to use a metaphor, when I want to eat beef I only want to eat beef, I don't want to eat the whole cow with the bones and everything. The regular season in the NBA is full of games that are a total waste of my time. So why can't I only watch the good games? Because I don't know which ones they are! I mean, the NBA literally insentivises losing, how do I know which team has just made a decision to start losing from now on? I don't. Why would I want to watch a game that one (or both) teams have decided they want to lose? I wouldn't.

Furthermore, the NBA has a totally unrealistic number of games that once upon a time teams and players tried to win as many as they can (I mean hell, they even tried hard in all star games back then), but clearly not any more. And you can see it by the numbers of stars and starters who are clearly on a resting rotational schedule. I mean if you are really a fanatic, you know that Giannis is not regularly injured one game out of five that he consistently misses the last 3 years. He's just resting. Because winning a random game in November means next to nothing to him ot his team. Why would I want to watch a game that my team doesnt really GAF about? I wouldn't.

If you really are a fanatic, you can easily detect the variances in effort levels from game to game. Do me a favour and watch the 10min highlights on YouTube from the regular season games between BOS and MIL last year, and then immediately watch the highlights from the 7 game series those teams played a few months later. It makes the former look like a bad joke, little more than a friendly game type effort. Why do I want to watch a friendly during some ungodly hour because I'm overseas? I don't. Mind you, this is not me being stubborn or trying to prove a point, I am literally catching myself being unable to watch half of the games, I try and I can't, it's boring to me. Did I get bored when Doncic was shooting himself with painkiller injections to win a do or die FIBA game? No. That's the type of effort (and game) I want to see.

I'm not even getting into the refs and finger - **** the rules of the game, forget it, that's a whole other chapter.

Now, you want to eat the entire cow? Sure. Maybe you want to watch the rookies, or a guy from your country? sure. I'm not judging, I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just explaining myself: its not enough for me to watch a game because it's the best players, I just don't have the patience for meaningless games or games without a certain level of effort, importance and competitiveness.

Maybe I should only watch the playoffs? Yea, I probably will do that.

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

My man. I’m not sure if you have the capability to watch NBA games on demand but if you do I highly recommend Wikihoops.com. It will show you the highest and lowest rated contests of the night/week/month spoiler free, so you can chomp straight into the beefiest beef and avoid the hooves & teeth. Also shaves watch time down to about 90 min. Unless it’s a huge playoff game I don’t have the capacity to watch live anymore. The best NBA game of the night will almost always beat the best Euroleague game of the night in my opinion.

[minami]

I am from Finland. My observation from the Lithuania vs Spain game was this. The game was very close, but Spain had a difference making player in Lorenzo Brown, who isn't Spanish and who has no connections to Spain. By a special request by the Spanish basketball federation Spanish ministry did the unhonorable thing of giving this American player an express Spanish passport. Great ministry! Spanish players wouldn't be in this tournament anymore without this American player. Lithuania would be playing for medals now instead of Spain, because on the next round Lithuania would have beaten Finland in my opinion.

You just forgot the Spanish Inquisition in your weird post, and I say this as lover of Finland (especially its women tbh).

*Really loved the "unhonorable Spanish Ministry" bit!

[Pachinko_]

My man. I’m not sure if you have the capability to watch NBA games on demand but if you do I highly recommend Wikihoops.com. It will show you the highest and lowest rated contests of the night/week/month spoiler free, so chomp straight into the beefiest beef avoid the hooves & teeth. Also shaves watch time down to about 90 min. Unless it’s a huge playoff game I don’t have the capacity to watch live anymore. The best NBA game of the night will almost always beat the best Euroleague game of the night in my opinion.

I'll definitely try that, I didn't even know its an option, thanks

It's hard to explain sometimes what I'm even trying to say, I have to go back to how those leagues and tournaments came to be. The NBA was designed for the American market, and America has a deep love for the game, much deeper than Europe, and a massive market to boot with countless people ready to pay crazy ticket prices. They have all those big cities thirsty for basketball, and they want to parade every single star from each city, at least once or twice a year. And why wouldn't they? But that is not a competition any more, that's a travelling show. And it works great for that huge and deep market, but it's impossible to pretend that all those games matter for some reason other than just making sure everybody has paid to see every star enough times a year. And that's perfectly fine, and it works exactly as designed, it's just not for me. Not all of it anyway


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[minami]

I am from Finland. My observation from the Lithuania vs Spain game was this. The game was very close, but Spain had a difference making player in Lorenzo Brown, who isn't Spanish and who has no connections to Spain. By a special request by the Spanish basketball federation Spanish ministry did the unhonorable thing of giving this American player an express Spanish passport. Great ministry! Spanish players wouldn't be in this tournament anymore without this American player. Lithuania would be playing for medals now instead of Spain, because on the next round Lithuania would have beaten Finland in my opinion.

You just forgot the Spanish Inquisition in your weird post, and I say this as lover of Finland.

*Really loved the "unhonorable Spanish Ministry" bit!

[minami]

Not a single mention of France btw, or just any actual basketball. This is so weird.

[Chuck Diesel]

Not a single mention of France btw, or just any actual basketball. This is so weird.

Getting back to hoops and France, gotta say it’s been an absolute pleasure to watch Tommy “French Chocolat“ Heurtel do his thing as Les Bleus‘s main playmaker. He seems forever entangled in mysterious personality conflicts that have him in and out of favor with whatever team he’s on (including the national team in the past) but when he’s given space to operate and keys to the offense there aren’t many point guards in Europe more fun to watch than Heurtel. He might throw the ball all over the place but god damn is it entertaining. Boules énormes.

[durden_tyler]

France favored by 3.5 points. Considering Spain's "upset" of Germany this is really tough. Which France team will show up?

[durden_tyler]

Ideally they should get rid of this naturalization BS and countries will put emphasis on developing their own youth rather than go the easy way of buying an American player to represent a country he doesn't know anything about.

Then expect the divide between the American teams vs the world to be even wider. This is sort of fair in my eyes, at least give the other countries a handicap, extra advantage just so to make it more interesting.

[knicksfan974]

Lorenzo Brown holding that Eurobasket MVP trophy will be the perfect conclusion of what a clown show the Fiba has become.

Embiid never lived in France nor has any roots in France. Apparently speaking French language is good enough reason to naturalize a player. Well does this also mean that Canada can naturalize any French player and vice verca. There are many French speaking countries in the world. It's also not the hardest language to learn for anyone, so I guess that France can naturalize anyone if they choose to learn to speak French. Let English speaking countries do the same. People who are born with English as their first language can be taken by any other English speaking country. The rule is one naturalized player per team. So this Embiid in team France logic would also mean that team UK should get some NBA superstar who isn't good enough to be on USA's best on best team and so on. I'm aware that anyone can naturalize anyone who hasn't represented another country on men's level, but my point is that there is no honor in that

I believe this is somewhat false. He might not have lived in France (this I do not know for sure), but he has, at least to my knowledge, actual ties to France, has close family living there etc. Definitely not the same case as for example Lorenzo Brown. To my understanding France has no history of signing foreigner mercenaries, as they have such great talent pool themselves. I for one do not classify Embiid as a merc. Dude will fit flawlessy with the French team (language-, culture- and basketball skillset-wise) and will lift them to be one of the bigger favorites for the '23 World Cup and the '24 Olympics.

[rocketsfan100]

France will gladly take Embiid. Anyone who believes otherwise then good for them

[bravor]

That remains to be seen. Collet kinda skiped the answer (since most media asked him that question, 'will you take him' a hundred times already when the topic was hot) but he said that if he was to obtain french nationality, he might do it. We'll see.
But the whole situation comes from Embiid himself. No one here has been asking him anything, he's the one who started this stuff a few years ago, and we had our share of bad press from the very same narrow minded trollls from over the world.

For my part, i wished he could have sticked to the hardest - in terms of expectations to reach the olympics because there are other african countries like Senegal or Egypt and others who are more reliable on the court - commitment, playing for Cameroon. The whole thing has more to do with Embiid wanting to play in the olympics while going for the easy way.

Honnestly the current staff is probably more focus on Victor than on Embiid and on other prospects as well since we have to replace De Colo, Batum & cie. Its not like we dont have any legit material (would they be in the nba or not) to feed our NT.

As for our 'attractivity', it does not sum up to Embiid though. We do have players who have ties (and most of the people are clueless about it) with France from over the world. It does not limit to basketball (aussies could speak about it since one of their best young athlete - Zhoya - who had been developed by AIS chose his mother's country internationally, France).
But in female basketbal we have two american born (maybe more) who also asked to play for our nt because of their family roots (and only one of them is allowed, which is good as it is). in men basketball, Tarpey is born here but he left early and made his whole development as a player in the states. Yet for some reason (his family first, his dad having the double nationality) he wanted to play for France. Young players chose who they want to play for, as long as they have roots/history with our country, i dont see why we would not select them.

Last but not least, a LOT of african teams have french born, raised (and developed) players that play for their NT. Dutch team has a french born player playing for them (De Jong), Aaron Cel is born and raised as a french and the list probably goes on. It does not work in one sense, and its even worst in football (soccer).
It would be nice to analyze this stuff on both sides when we start this debate, especially from fans who are feeling discomfort because of their own federation(s).

[Sane]

No one cares about race until the media inflames it. If you commit to a country and that country commits to you, that's citizenship. That's for more a citizenship than a person who in no control of their own was born into a country and acted proud to be from it.

All the teams are going to become mixed race. All these changes are going to take place faster and sooner. There's not a purity being protected. There's an old way disappearing, and it's for the better. Once upon a time, the world saw the entire American national basketball team or the French world cup winning team as a team that should be African . Where are those people now? Who even cares about those voices?

If it's that easy Finland, go ahead and find a Lorenzo Brown. There's a reason he chose Spain and not Finland. It's because it's more profitable, a better social life and a better league. Spain chose Brown because he's good enough to play and even start. Do the same, people will flock to you and plant real roots there. Finland is a lovely country with the most welcoming people, but sadly one of the least diverse on the planet in 2022 and it is hard for a man of any color to constantly have to overcome a shyness/discomfort from people who are not used to living in diverse societies. I'm a loud good looking shaved head black bearded middle easterner with piercings and tattoos, I was not welcome there until my American(ish) accent was heard (and that's not ok). But once I got through that fear of theirs, the people underneath were absolutely incredible. They had just never come out to play.

Nothing personal about Finland, could be any number of countries in the world. Was just the example I saw here where a Finnish poster sincerely shared his disappointment as though Finland not winning is someone else's fault.

One day everyone will be kind of an FA for national teams because immigration will never reduce on earth for at least another few hundred years. Everyone will be able to trace their connections to somewhere or the other or all the way back to Africa thus everyone will be able to make a case for multiple countries.

This is a sport. The trophy for winning as the purest might be given out elsewhere but not here. This sport is not about accentuating and highlighting differences in people. It's about bringing people together because they are the same. Through the struggle of sport, we find a common value that transcends all that bull: we all struggle and that is the core of our being. The struggle to thrive and grow is One.

If you're going to sit back and watch teams do this while being unhappy, you are going to be incrementally more unhappy every day for the rest of your life about this. Does it make sense you would put yourself on that path? Your choice, but seems crazy to me.

[edededtut]

Is the ”finnish lorenzo brown” willing to live in Finland for five years and learn Finnish or Swedish?

Finnish officials are not giving passports to folks just because they are good in basketball. Not for something as trivial as sports.

[Pachinko_]

So why does Embiid want to play for France anyway? Nothing better to do in the summer?

[Mavrelous]

What was he in the NBA?

NBA performance isn't a good indicator of how good a player might be in FIBA play. Brown is too short to/ not athletic enough for his style of play to translate to the NBA. Those close range pullups in traffic are getting blocked in the league. Someone like Kawhi can do that in the NBA but not brown.

However, against less athletic guys like in Eurobasket he has been dominant with that. Will be interesting to see if he can pull that off against the French team. Shouldn't be an issue against Heurtel.

Isn't Shane Larkin a huge star in Europe?

He didn't look like the prototype that would flourish over there.

Honestly, a small minority of users do a disservice to FIBA, because they have this delusional idea of FIBA > NBA, when simply by looking at the NBA scrubs that are signed by these countries to play for them would hint at the massive gulf in level between FIBA and NBA.

Anyway, if Don Lorenzo finishes the job tomorrow and becomes MVP, it'll be a really bad look for Fiba and Eurobasket. A great testament to Scariolo's ability though and Spain's competitive DNA. I read that Spain weren't supposed to even make it past the 1st elimination round, so they're a bit of a cinderella story and will become local legends if they win it feels like.

Most of the European talent is in bigs and big guards, in small guards the US have way way more talent, my guess is that football is sucking all the normal height people in Europe.

[sisibilio]

Not a single mention of France btw, or just any actual basketball. This is so weird.

Getting back to hoops and France, gotta say it’s been an absolute pleasure to watch Tommy “French Chocolat“ Heurtel do his thing as Les Bleus‘s main playmaker. He seems forever entangled in mysterious personality conflicts that have him in and out of favor with whatever team he’s on (including the national team in the past) but when he’s given space to operate and keys to the offense there aren’t many point guards in Europe more fun to watch than Heurtel. He might throw the ball all over the place but god damn is it entertaining. Boules énormes.

The thing is, even without the off-court issues, whatever those are, he's super inconsistent, he can win you a game by himself or taking you out if he's on a bad day. Not the steady presence you want to give him the keys of the team.

[lambchop]

NBA performance isn't a good indicator of how good a player might be in FIBA play. Brown is too short to/ not athletic enough for his style of play to translate to the NBA. Those close range pullups in traffic are getting blocked in the league. Someone like Kawhi can do that in the NBA but not brown.

However, against less athletic guys like in Eurobasket he has been dominant with that. Will be interesting to see if he can pull that off against the French team. Shouldn't be an issue against Heurtel.

Isn't Shane Larkin a huge star in Europe?

He didn't look like the prototype that would flourish over there.

Honestly, a small minority of users do a disservice to FIBA, because they have this delusional idea of FIBA > NBA, when simply by looking at the NBA scrubs that are signed by these countries to play for them would hint at the massive gulf in level between FIBA and NBA.

Anyway, if Don Lorenzo finishes the job tomorrow and becomes MVP, it'll be a really bad look for Fiba and Eurobasket. A great testament to Scariolo's ability though and Spain's competitive DNA. I read that Spain weren't supposed to even make it past the 1st elimination round, so they're a bit of a cinderella story and will become local legends if they win it feels like.

Most of the European talent is in bigs and big guards, in small guards the US have way way more talent, my guess is that football is sucking all the normal height people in Europe.

The guard thing is really country specific. In Spain the players are actually very short overall. They actually have "amazing" point guards that are simply to short to be real pros. I talking about guys who are Kay Felders aka shorter than players like IT. But, of course, these guys like IT (pre-injury) or Felder are very athletic and have generally pretty strong physically.

Also, in Spain coaches will insist that the shortest players play point guard, regardless of skillset. It's not like the US where 6'7 guys play point, unless they somehow make it to the pro team at age 14/15 and are forced to play PG because they're still too weak to play other positions.

In Germany positions are more skill based, but the player pool is way smaller than in some other countries. Serbia also seems to be skill based, but I haven't lived or played there so I can't tell for sure. But now after Nikola Jokic with guard skills also have Nikola Jovic who is a 6'11 guard/wing. That would be unthinkable in Spain (although that kinda was the case with Pau Gasol years ago).

[the_urre14]

Not a single mention of France btw, or just any actual basketball. This is so weird.

Getting back to hoops and France, gotta say it’s been an absolute pleasure to watch Tommy “French Chocolat“ Heurtel do his thing as Les Bleus‘s main playmaker. He seems forever entangled in mysterious personality conflicts that have him in and out of favor with whatever team he’s on (including the national team in the past) but when he’s given space to operate and keys to the offense there aren’t many point guards in Europe more fun to watch than Heurtel. He might throw the ball all over the place but god damn is it entertaining. Boules énormes.

Heurtel is one of the most talented guards in Europe this decade, but he has always been under scrutinity. When he has a good day, he is one of the most fun and best guards in european basketball, there are not many players with his ability to play the p&r. Unluckyly for him (and for the fans), he has big flaws in his game that I think made him underachieve during his career. He is kind of a solo artist in his way. Yes, he gives a lot of dimes, but the way he does it is having a very high usage and kind of playing his way, out of the team dynamic. Also, he is kind or a hit or bust player, he either wins the game or losses it. When he played in my team, Baskonia, we kind of used a word to describe this hit or bust, "Heurtelada". Apart from his negative basketball qualities, the most important factor in his underachievement has been his character. Hi has had problems in every club he has been in, with teammates, coaches, board... I don´t think there´s a club where he has left and the fans or the organization itself misses him. It´s a pity. As a neutral watching a game where he plays, I agree that is one of the best players to enjoy watching.

[txusto]

Maybe it's time to talk about the Final...