Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden?

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Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#1 » by coastalmarker99 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:49 am

This is an incredibly tough question to answer.

Harden has beat CP3 in the playoffs twice but his performances in big games are just terrible.


While on the other hand, CP3 has blown five 2-0 series leads in the playoffs while disappearing when his teams have needed him the most.


Examples include him scoring just 4 points in the final 3 quarters in a deciding game 7 at home against the Jazz.

And just scoring one point in a game seven at home through three and a half quarters while his team was getting blown out before he stat padded.
Reggie Jackson is amazing and a killer in the clutch that's all.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#2 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:14 am

Chris Paul is more consistent when he plays although I guess you could argue he is more of a choker in the sense he is more likely to get injured. Though, your post seems to suggest a mental aspect to things, therefore CP3's physical shortcomings probably don't matter much here. Anyways some highlights


Chris Paul's Playoff Peaks

3-year Backpicks BPM-7.4

5-year Backpicks BPM All-time Rank- #3

5-year BPM-9.60

3-year PS On/Off-16.8

3-year PS AuPM-5.2

3-year LEBRON-7.86

(14-18) PS RAPM-3.50
(15-19) PS RAPM-3.14



Harden's Playoff Peaks

3-year Backpicks BPM-7.3

5-year Backpicks BPM All-time Rank- #14 (could be higher but was calculated as of March 3, 2020)

5-year BPM-7.82

3-year PS On/Off-16.8

3-year PS AuPM-4.8

3-year LEBRON-5.28

(14-18) PS RAPM-2.06
(15-19) PS RAPM-2.15



Chris Paul's team offenses haven been great, posting a playoff offensive relative efficiency of +5.7 from 2013-17 and a 3-year offensive peak of 7.7 (15-17). Harden's peak as a Rocket, when he was the lead man on playoff offenses, was a +3.9 from 17-19.

Paul has done this repeatedly too. The longevity is impressive. For instance, Paul has the 2nd most postseason runs over +4 in AuPM per game since 1997 with 7, with Curry next up with 6. Keep in mind a +4 is around the area of what you would expect for a top 5 guy, so that is significant added value and has been able to do this type of thing repeatedly.

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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#3 » by 70sFan » Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:18 am

You, as a huge Wilt fan, should stop calling players "chokers". It was used against Wilt throughout the years (undeservedly so), simply because it's easier to just call someone that way instead of actually analyzing the problem.

Harden and Paul are two of the greatest players in NBA history. No top 50 player is a choker.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#4 » by coastalmarker99 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:40 am

70sFan wrote:You, as a huge Wilt fan, should stop calling players "chokers". It was used against Wilt throughout the years (undeservedly so), simply because it's easier to just call someone that way instead of actually analyzing the problem.

Harden and Paul are two of the greatest players in NBA history. No top 50 player is a choker.


13 years into his career, can anyone name a single notable playoff moment or performance that Harden's had?

The only one I can think of is the dagger 3 he hit in Game 5 of the 2012 WCF while on OKC.

Outside of that? I literally can't think of another one.

You can honestly make the case that Harden's the worst superstar playoff performer in league history.


Sure, you could argue Malone, Robinson, Ewing CP3.

But I'd still rank Harden below all of them and anybody else.

Almost any time he has a great playoff performance, it's either early in the playoffs or early in the series.

Almost without fail, the further a series goes or the further his team advances in the playoffs, the worse Harden gets.


His list of playoff failures is honestly remarkable.

Just for emphasis on how uniquely terrible Harden is in the playoffs, here's how he stacks up to his contemporaries.

Playoff games shooting under 20% (minimum 10 attempts)

LeBron: 1
Curry: 1
Durant: 0
Kawhi: 0
Westbrook: 1

Harden: 9
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#5 » by Dooley » Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:46 am

I don't love the construct of "choker" and I think being a so-called choker is nearly always a product of variance and the fact that only one team can ultimately win.

That said, CP3.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#6 » by coastalmarker99 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:46 am

70sFan wrote:You, as a huge Wilt fan, should stop calling players "chokers". It was used against Wilt throughout the years (undeservedly so), simply because it's easier to just call someone that way instead of actually analyzing the problem.

Harden and Paul are two of the greatest players in NBA history. No top 50 player is a choker.


When CP3 happens to blow it over and over and over again in the playoffs I think it's validated to use the word choker to describe him.

;t=82s




In 2020 Cp3 didn't score a single point in the last 7 min and 11 seconds of that game seven and he missed a easy bunny to tie the game with 30 seconds left.

He once again disappeared when it mattered most in a 2-point loss.

The number of people protecting his legacy is crazy even though anyone else having his playoff failures would of been the laughing stock of the league yearly
Reggie Jackson is amazing and a killer in the clutch that's all.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#7 » by 70sFan » Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:51 am

I get it, you don't like these two. You should stop this terminology though, it's insulting and brings no analytical value.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#8 » by coastalmarker99 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:55 am

70sFan wrote:I get it, you don't like these two. You should stop this terminology though, it's insulting and brings no analytical value.


CP3 went from shooting 14/14 in the closeout game against New Orleans and played really well in G1/G2 against Dallas.

Then in a Game 7 at home as the best team in the league by far, going into the 4th quarter, this was the situation:

Mavericks up 42 (92-50)

Chris Paul: 3 points (1-5 FG, 1-2 FT), 2 assists, 1 rebound

He then stays in the game in the 4th quarter, down 42, and gets 7 points and 2 assists to pad his stats up to having 10/4.


How else could you describe his meltdown against the Mavs besides him choking?


Zeke who won 2 rings and would have won 3 in a row if not for a complete robbery in 1988.


Said it best Chris Paul tries to have these perfect stat line games but when you need him he’s either hurt or just disappears.








If CP3 had the mindset and killer instinct of Zeke he would have been even better
Reggie Jackson is amazing and a killer in the clutch that's all.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#9 » by AEnigma » Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:59 am

Definitely in the top five worst chokes I have ever seen from a 36-year-old all-NBA player. :blank:

Isiah went 4/12 in the deciding game 7 in 1988. He only scored ten points, and Detroit lost by three. Sure looks like a choke to me.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#10 » by 70sFan » Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:06 am

I shouldn't have wasted my time...
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#11 » by coastalmarker99 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:18 am

Nobody can refute my points about CP3 and it makes you fanboys of his seethe.

I can not believe that people on this site were still saying in the year 2022 that CP3 was better than Curry all-time

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2190690

Hell Curry's run from 2015 to 2019 is better than CP3's entire career.

Cp3 in the post season

10 blown playoff leads

7 losses with HCA

5 blown 2-0 leads

3 missed playoffs

1 blown 3-1 lead

and most notably of all 0 rings
Reggie Jackson is amazing and a killer in the clutch that's all.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#12 » by Dutchball97 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:41 am

coastalmarker99 wrote:Nobody can refute my points about CP3 and it makes you fanboys of his seethe.

I can not believe that people on this site were still saying in the year 2022 that CP3 was better than Curry all-time

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2190690

Hell Curry's run from 2015 to 2019 is better than CP3's entire career.

Cp3 in the post season

10 blown playoff leads

7 losses with HCA

5 blown 2-0 leads

3 missed playoffs

1 blown 3-1 lead

and most notably of all 0 rings


One of these days you're going to find out basketball is actually played in a 5v5 format instead of 1v1 and thing are going to make so much more sense to you then.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#13 » by Chronz » Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:13 pm

When has cp3 ever choked? He's always lost to superior teams.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#14 » by No-more-rings » Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:33 pm

Cp3 is probably the better player and talent, but there’s no question he’s underachieved in his career compared to a lot of other guys Harden included.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#15 » by Homer38 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:36 pm

Chronz wrote:When has cp3 ever choked? He's always lost to superior teams.


Not in 2015 and 2022
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#16 » by Lost92Bricks » Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:28 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Cp3 is probably the better player and talent, but there’s no question he’s underachieved in his career compared to a lot of other guys Harden included.

His teammates haven't been good enough and successful enough for you to say that.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#17 » by Sark » Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:34 pm

AEnigma wrote:Definitely in the top five worst chokes I have ever seen from a 36-year-old all-NBA player. :blank:

Isiah went 4/12 in the deciding game 7 in 1988. He only scored ten points, and Detroit lost by three. Sure looks like a choke to me.



C'mon man, that's the game after he put up 43, with 25 in the 3rd quarter, on a badly sprained ankle.

The fact that he even played is a miracle. Definitely not a choke, if you actually use context.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#18 » by Jaivl » Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:54 pm

coastalmarker99 wrote:
70sFan wrote:You, as a huge Wilt fan, should stop calling players "chokers". It was used against Wilt throughout the years (undeservedly so), simply because it's easier to just call someone that way instead of actually analyzing the problem.

Harden and Paul are two of the greatest players in NBA history. No top 50 player is a choker.


13 years into his career, can anyone name a single notable playoff moment or performance that Harden's had?

Outplaying prime Curry and Durant in a playoff series is pretty nice.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#19 » by Chronz » Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:06 pm

Homer38 wrote:
Chronz wrote:When has cp3 ever choked? He's always lost to superior teams.


Not in 2015 and 2022

Old man CP3 shouldn't be mentioned, its amazing what hes been able to do for that franchise at such an advanced age, anything he does from here on out is just extra gravy. And even then it took a guy we may one day be looking at as a TOP-12 guy to oust him. And for whatever its worth, theres rumors that he was playing thru covid...

As for 2015, that series alone should tell you how much of a team game this is. The other guy in that series was James Harden and the Rockets legit survived because they benched him in the most critical moment. Harden choked harder than CP3 ever could but his team won because they sat his choking ass down. Then lets consider the added context, CP3 was coming off an injury after hitting the game winning jumper to dethrone the champs, in a HEATED 7 game slugout that left both teams utterly depleted, it was so unfair the NBA changed the playoff format to ensure a series like that never happens again so early in the playoffs. CP3's series against the Spurs already ensures a quality playoff run. If thats your best example of CP3 choking then I think we have our answer here.

Harden is EASILY the bigger choker. This dude didn't just lose to inferior teams, hes outright MIA in several runs.

Look at some of his early first round flameouts, his choking in the Finals as a bench player, his no shows against the quality teams above the 1st round.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#20 » by AEnigma » Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:15 pm

Sark wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Definitely in the top five worst chokes I have ever seen from a 36-year-old all-NBA player. :blank:

Isiah went 4/12 in the deciding game 7 in 1988. He only scored ten points, and Detroit lost by three. Sure looks like a choke to me.

C'mon man, that's the game after he put up 43, with 25 in the 3rd quarter, on a badly sprained ankle.

The fact that he even played is a miracle. Definitely not a choke, if you actually use context.

Oh so we are allowing context and injury excuses for Isiah?

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