People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[Ron Swanson]

Ridiculous. Randle just had an all NBA season as a 1st option. Contenders don't want him as a key sidekick. Love had more offensive talent than Grant. Duh. But volume scoring isn't as additive.

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Not even in the same stratosphere. You know better than this:

Randle: 24/10/6 on 56.7% TS, 19.7 PER, .140 WS/48, +0.3 on/off (on some complete outlier shooting splits of 41% 3PT and 81% FT)
Love: 26/12/4 on 59% TS, 26.9 PER, .245 WS/48, +10.9 on/off

Not arguing they are same exact player, as you know. Am arguing that just stacking up primary options leads to a sum less than the parts. Grant as a 3rd option who is a great defender is going to be more valuable to virtually every contender.

And it's okay to acknowledge Love as a superior talent but Grant more valuable in this context. Have we learned zero from Draymond?

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The point is I brought up how T-Wolves K-Love legitimately was an All-NBA, team-lifting impact guy and not just an empty stat-stuffer on a bad team, and that ability/value didn't just magically "go away" because his usage got neutered playing next to Kyrie and Lebron. Hell, he was still a great impact guy even as a non-ideal "3rd option" when he was on the Cavs (+7.8, +5.8, +9.3 on/off, #1 among PF's in RPM for '16-17). It's fine if you disagree with the numbers, but don't sit there and gaslight everyone by bringing up Julius **** Randle as some sort of rational example about how "offense-first guys aren't impactful as tertiary/secondary options". C'mon man.

[Stalwart]

I think Cousy was clearly a better player relative to era. Havlicek is at no worse equivalent of not better. Sam Jones and Tommy Heinsohn are both comparable. Then you still have guys like Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, Bailey Howell who weren't far off from a Scottie Pippen. Russell had about 4 or 5 Scottie Pippens.

Robinson wasn't far off from a young or old Pippen in 99. Kawhi Parker, and Ginobili weren't far off from Pippen either. So yeah, as Im thinking about it both Russell and Duncan had 4 or 5 Scottie Pippen-ish level players for the totality of their primes. But lets all focus on Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong.

I don't think you can make the Cousy argument unless you ignore the postseason where Cousy consistently laid eggs and by the time Russell got there, he had slipped to an inefficient regular season player as well except maybe in Russell's rookie year. Not that Cousy got worse but that shooting efficiency in the NBA was rapidly changing and Cousy wasn't keeping up. Pre-Russell you can make an argument that Cousy was the best or close to the best guard in the NBA but by 58 he was an inefficient postseason negative.

70sfan and I recently took a look at the 1962 NBA Finals. And what immediately jumped out to me was Bob Cousy. He seemed to be at another level in terms of ball handling, creativity, and playmaking. It was Cousy who consistently pushed the ball up the court and got the offense moving and set up his teammates for open shots. He looked like the clear difference maker for the Celtics offense. Yet, when you check the box score he only scored 8 points on 23% shooting. The point is I don't think you can point to his fg% and declare him a net negative. From what I've seen he's looked like a tremendous net positive despite his inefficiency. And that was in 1962 when the rest of the league should have caught up to him already.

Besides Cousy was the actual MVP of the league during one of Russell's championships. You don't get much better than that.

[AEnigma]

While we are on the subject of MVP level play:

Pippen — 0.716 MVP Shares (peak finish at third), 3 first-team all-NBA, 2 second-team all-NBA, 2 third-team all-NBA; also 0.5 DPoY shares, with back-to-back finishes at second.

Wade — 0.793 MVP Shares (peak finish at third), 2 first-team all-NBA, 3 second-team all-NBA, 3 third-team all-NBA.

Davis — 0.68 MVP Shares (peak finish at third), 4 first-team all-NBA; also 0.892 DPoY shares, with peak finishes at second and third.

Kyrie has none or nearly none, and Kevin Love’s 0.068 (peak finish at sixth in 2012) marks him right next to Sam Jones.

2020 Davis is definitely the best single season for a teammate of either, but Pippen is not exactly falling short comparatively with his prime.

[Cavsfansince84]

The point is I brought up how T-Wolves K-Love legitimately was an All-NBA, team-lifting impact guy and not just an empty stat-stuffer on a bad team, and that ability/value didn't just magically "go away" because his usage got neutered playing next to Kyrie and Lebron. Hell, he was still a great impact guy even as a non-ideal "3rd option" when he was on the Cavs (+7.8, +5.8, +9.3 on/off, #1 among PF's in RPM for '16-17). It's fine if you disagree with the numbers, but don't sit there and gaslight everyone by bringing up Julius **** Randle as some sort of rational example about how "offense-first guys aren't impactful as tertiary/secondary options". C'mon man.

I'm not sure how we know this for certain. Because really what it comes down to imo is can a guy lead a team to roughly 52+ wins as the best player on that team and until a guy does that we don't really know that he can. It's also typically more true(being an empty box score type) of players who are bad defensively which Love definitely was. Am I convinced that Kevin Love could lead a team to 52+ wins had he stayed in Minnesota and they got another all star to pair with him with a couple other good role players? No, not really.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Well, that's why I said over Cavs Love and in some situations, not all. I think Love wasn't the same player after 2014 when he lost mass. He was still a very good offensive third option who provided excellent spacing and shooting, but his defense was never strong and he couldn't create from the post anymore. I think peak Grant was a better player than this version of Love.

This always seems like a very convenient pro-Lebron narrative. Not accusing you of that per say, but I don't see the evidence that Love suddenly dropped off the second he became a Cav, as much as playing with Lebron forced him into a less optimized role. He slimmed down precisely because they wanted him to be a glorified floor-spacer, and in playing further away from the basket, mitigated two of his greatest strengths, re: offensive rebounding & his play-making ability out of the high post. It's one of the reasons I'm not nearly as high on pre-2018 Lebron as an overall floor general. I don't think he really understood how to maximize his front court teammates (Bosh included) until a player like Davis' caliber came to LA and he happily accepted a more facilitating role.

I think part of what it was with Love(as well as Bosh to some degree) is its very hard for a player who spent years as a #1 option/franchise type player to suddenly embrace being a #2 or #3 role(in their cases it was a clear #3). Most players who are great at being a #3 grow into that role and not the other way around. Be it Worthy or Manu/Parker or whoever. So they don't feel like they are being held back or going backwards by taking it on. In the case of Love, I don't think he mentally fully adjusted until after LeBron left and I think this is part of if you recall he had real mental issues that developed in those years. I don't see it as being LeBron's fault per se. It's just hard for a guy in his prime to willingly embrace it. At least with Bosh though he focused more on defense. Love tried to focus on becoming a great 3 pt shooter but it was inconsistent.

The 16 and 17 Cavs had the 2nd greatest 2-year PS Offense Cavs (16 and 17 PS) was made up of elite shooters, and therefore it is hard to see them doing much better. Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love posted career-best marks in scaled APM in 2017 because I do believe Lebron's passing (especially skip passing) generates some of the best looks for shooters ever. To me, just because Kevin Love's box-score profile was lesser, doesn't mean he was automatically less valuable as a player.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think part of what it was with Love(as well as Bosh to some degree) is its very hard for a player who spent years as a #1 option/franchise type player to suddenly embrace being a #2 or #3 role(in their cases it was a clear #3). Most players who are great at being a #3 grow into that role and not the other way around. Be it Worthy or Manu/Parker or whoever. So they don't feel like they are being held back or going backwards by taking it on. In the case of Love, I don't think he mentally fully adjusted until after LeBron left and I think this is part of if you recall he had real mental issues that developed in those years. I don't see it as being LeBron's fault per se. It's just hard for a guy in his prime to willingly embrace it. At least with Bosh though he focused more on defense. Love tried to focus on becoming a great 3 pt shooter but it was inconsistent.

The 16 and 17 Cavs had the 2nd greatest 2-year PS Offense Cavs (16 and 17 PS) was made up of elite shooters, and therefore it is hard to see them doing much better. Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love posted career-best marks in scaled APM in 2017 because I do believe Lebron's passing (especially skip passing) generates some of the best looks for shooters ever. To me, just because Kevin Love's box-score profile was lesser, doesn't mean he was automatically less valuable as a player.

Love was not that great in either playoff run. He had a series here and there where his shooting was good but as a Cavs fan I'd have preferred someone who could do more than he could and show up bigger in the finals. I don't think a #3 option role really suited him that well.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think part of what it was with Love(as well as Bosh to some degree) is its very hard for a player who spent years as a #1 option/franchise type player to suddenly embrace being a #2 or #3 role(in their cases it was a clear #3). Most players who are great at being a #3 grow into that role and not the other way around. Be it Worthy or Manu/Parker or whoever. So they don't feel like they are being held back or going backwards by taking it on. In the case of Love, I don't think he mentally fully adjusted until after LeBron left and I think this is part of if you recall he had real mental issues that developed in those years. I don't see it as being LeBron's fault per se. It's just hard for a guy in his prime to willingly embrace it. At least with Bosh though he focused more on defense. Love tried to focus on becoming a great 3 pt shooter but it was inconsistent.

The 16 and 17 Cavs had the 2nd greatest 2-year PS Offense Cavs (16 and 17 PS) was made up of elite shooters, and therefore it is hard to see them doing much better. Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love posted career-best marks in scaled APM in 2017 because I do believe Lebron's passing (especially skip passing) generates some of the best looks for shooters ever. To me, just because Kevin Love's box-score profile was lesser, doesn't mean he was automatically less valuable as a player.

Love was not that great in either playoff run. He had a series here and there where his shooting was good but as a Cavs fan I'd have preferred someone who could do more than he could and show up bigger in the finals. I don't think a #3 option role really suited him that well.

I don't know if I agree with that. His 17 PS run was pretty solid and when you consider he was a 3rd option arguably terrific.

In round 1, he averaged 18.4 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of 4.3%.

In round 2, he averaged 19.8 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of 9.8%.

In round 3, he averaged 26.3 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of 13.8%.

In the Finals, he averaged 17.9 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of -0.40%.

The only round he struggled was the Finals against GSW, which was just a repeat of the season prior, as GSW is a bad matchup for him considering they are incredibly switchable and can potentially tire him out when he is playing defense. I would like to see the amount of 3rd options offensively who put up better scoring numbers than this, because I imagine Love's performance is in the upper quartile.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't know if I agree with that. His 17 PS run was pretty solid and when you consider he was a 3rd option arguably terrific.

In round 1, he averaged 18.4 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of 4.3%.

In round 2, he averaged 19.8 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of 9.8%.

In round 3, he averaged 26.3 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of 13.8%.

In the Finals, he averaged 17.9 pts per 75 possessions on a rTS% of -0.40%.

The only round he struggled was the Finals against GSW, which was just a repeat of the season prior, as GSW is a bad matchup for him considering they are incredibly switchable and can potentially tire him out when he is playing defense. I would like to see the amount of 3rd options offensively who put up better scoring numbers than this, because I imagine Love's performance is in the upper quartile.

The thing is we needed him to be good or great against the better teams. That's when his weaknesses seemed to overtake his strengths and that's part of putting him in that #3 scoring role. Like I said, I don't think having him in that role is a good way to build a team. I mean sure he can do it but it's not an optimal way to build imo. He's better served being a #2 who can play in the post more.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I've said this before, Love just wasn't a good fit on that Cleveland roster in the sense that having your 3 best players all be offensively oriented is going to create major redundancies, especially in the case of Love and Irving being 90% offense. Love's decline in production had little to do with his abilities or "Lebron-ball", having 3 offensively oriented players is just poor roster construction. Someone like Ibaka would've been vastly better in Love's role even though he's a worse player in a vacuum.

Even in an ideal case like the Warriors in 17, all their production declined a decent amount when KD joined and Klay also basically does nothing but shoot, Love's abilities were more expansive than that.

And in that sense, Grant is inarguably a better 3rd option in his context, (and almost certainly on the Cavs) than Love. But that doesn't necessarily make Grant a better player in isolation.

Yup, I think you could argue very easily this is more so the case, than anything else. Lebron gets criticized similarly for not being able to gel with Chris Bosh and minimizing his role, although it probably was more so that Bosh was a 3rd option, than anything else.

For example,

Chris Bosh as a first option on the Raptors (07-10)

▫️ 24.8 pts/75
▫️ +3.9 rTS%

Bosh as a 2nd option on the heat 11-14 (with wade OFF, but Bron ON)

▫️ 22.6 pts/75
▫️ +8.4 rTS%

The minutes with Wade off, but Bosh on was a 2197 minute sample, so not exactly an insignificant amount of time. Bosh when he was a 2nd option in Miami arguably put up better scoring numbers than he did as a #1 option in Toronto.

[euroleague]

For me, I'd have to see his 91-93 peak in a completely different manner than I do. I was very young when I watched that and don't remember him dominating that much. I remember 96-98 much more clearly - he just wasn't that great. He was, in basketball terms, not that different in terms of impact and scoring from Karl Malone as a player. MJ played less respectfully, and was far more of a bully on the court - he'd rub it in opponent faces, commit offensive fouls, and use questionable tactics to get ahead... and that's really how he won those series against the Jazz. That, and his team was just more talented than Malone's.

Shaq was just on another level. He also bullied, but not in a disrespectful manner.

I just don't think peak MJ was nearly as good as Shaq, watching the players and how they affected the game offensively. "Jordan rules" shut down MJ - Shaq was double teamed every play, and all that did was slow him down a bit.

[70sFan]

Was Tim Duncan's path laid out for him? What about Magic? Bird? Steph? Russell? Kareem? All of these guys had teams, coaches, and systems built around them. All of these guys had teammates better than Scottie Pippen. You guys will scoff at Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love as superstar teammates but will bring up Ron Harper.

I don't think Russell ever played with a better player than Pippen. I guess you can argue Pippen vs Hondo or Cousy, but it's far from clear choice. Same with Duncan, old Robinson isn't clear cut better than peak Pippen. McHale vs Pippen is also a close conversation.

I think Cousy was clearly a better player relative to era. Havlicek is at no worse equivalent of not better. Sam Jones and Tommy Heinsohn are both comparable. Then you still have guys like Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, Bailey Howell who weren't far off from a Scottie Pippen. Russell had about 4 or 5 Scottie Pippens.

Robinson wasn't far off from a young or old Pippen in 99. Kawhi Parker, and Ginobili weren't far off from Pippen either. So yeah, as Im thinking about it both Russell and Duncan had 4 or 5 Scottie Pippen-ish level players for the totality of their primes. But lets all focus on Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong.

Yeah, if you think that Frank Ramsey, Tom Heinsohn or Bailey Howell were Pippen level players, then we have nothing else to talk about.

[Stalwart]

I don't think Russell ever played with a better player than Pippen. I guess you can argue Pippen vs Hondo or Cousy, but it's far from clear choice. Same with Duncan, old Robinson isn't clear cut better than peak Pippen. McHale vs Pippen is also a close conversation.

I think Cousy was clearly a better player relative to era. Havlicek is at no worse equivalent of not better. Sam Jones and Tommy Heinsohn are both comparable. Then you still have guys like Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, Bailey Howell who weren't far off from a Scottie Pippen. Russell had about 4 or 5 Scottie Pippens.

Robinson wasn't far off from a young or old Pippen in 99. Kawhi Parker, and Ginobili weren't far off from Pippen either. So yeah, as Im thinking about it both Russell and Duncan had 4 or 5 Scottie Pippen-ish level players for the totality of their primes. But lets all focus on Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong.

Yeah, if you think that Frank Ramsey, Tom Heinsohn or Bailey Howell were Pippen level players, then we have nothing else to talk about.

This coming from someone who compares Horace Grant to Kevin Love

[70sFan]

I think Cousy was clearly a better player relative to era. Havlicek is at no worse equivalent of not better. Sam Jones and Tommy Heinsohn are both comparable. Then you still have guys like Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, Bailey Howell who weren't far off from a Scottie Pippen. Russell had about 4 or 5 Scottie Pippens.

Robinson wasn't far off from a young or old Pippen in 99. Kawhi Parker, and Ginobili weren't far off from Pippen either. So yeah, as Im thinking about it both Russell and Duncan had 4 or 5 Scottie Pippen-ish level players for the totality of their primes. But lets all focus on Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong.

Yeah, if you think that Frank Ramsey, Tom Heinsohn or Bailey Howell were Pippen level players, then we have nothing else to talk about.

This coming from someone who compares Horace Grant to Kevin Love

At very least, I can say that I watched a lot of games both from Grant and Love. You, on the other hand, probably don't know the difference between Bill Sharman and Frank Ramsey...

[Stalwart]

Yeah, if you think that Frank Ramsey, Tom Heinsohn or Bailey Howell were Pippen level players, then we have nothing else to talk about.

This coming from someone who compares Horace Grant to Kevin Love

At very least, I can say that I watched a lot of games both from Grant and Love. You, on the other hand, probably don't know the difference between Bill Sharman and Frank Ramsey...

Ok, so what was the big gap between Pippen and Tommy Heinsohn and Bailey Howell? I agree that Pippen was the better player btw. But what makes Pippen so next level that names like Howell and Heinsohn can't even be mentioned with his?

[coastalmarker99]

John Havlicek (67-69 Playoffs)
46 GP
26.0 PPG
9.0 RPG
6.0 APG
45.0 FG% (22.0 FGA)
83.3 FT% (8.0 FTA)
51.7 TS% (+3.3 rTS%)

- Elite Shooter/Defender
- 2 Championships
- 1968 Playoff GP, FGM, Points, And Assists Leader


As a rookie, Heinsohn led the Celtics in playoff scoring with 22.9 ppg (in Game 7 of the '57 Finals, he had 37 points and 23 rebounds), becoming the only rookie to ever lead a championship team in scoring in either the regular or postseason.

He also led 4 more Boston championship squads in scoring, during the regular or post-season.

Heinsohn also won the '57 Rookie Of The Year over teammate Bill Russell.

Not only was Heinsohn an underrated defender but he could make some fantastic passes when given the opportunity.

Roy Leenig, his coach at Holy Cross, called Heinsohn the "greatest playmaker for a big man I've ever seen."


Sharman was one of the greatest FT shooters of all-time (career 88%, record 7x leader in FT%, top-tier of FT+, and the ball wasn't even properly "rounded" until the late-50s or made with 8 panels until '70), he was arguably the best mid-range and outside shooter of his time.

His career 43% FG% was very high for a guard at the time (Sharman's career stats), and the only other guard back then with similar FG% and FT% was Larry Costello who entered the league in 1954 (44% FG, 84% FT), but he only played 3 seasons in the 50's before playing the majority of his career in the 60's.

Beyond the great shooting, Sharman was considering one of the absolute best lock-down perimeter defenders of the time, and he was a feisty/fiery guy who got in a ton of fights ("Battling Bill" was one of his nicknames - nearly came to blows with at least one of the Laker players when he was LA's coach during their epic '72 season).

He was also considered a good passer, and was one of the most athletic guys of the 50's (he played pro baseball as well), in part because he was an ahead-of-his-time exerciser, sticking to a daily routine of stretching & exercising, which was highly unusual at the time.

[70sFan]

This coming from someone who compares Horace Grant to Kevin Love

At very least, I can say that I watched a lot of games both from Grant and Love. You, on the other hand, probably don't know the difference between Bill Sharman and Frank Ramsey...

Ok, so what was the big gap between Pippen and Tommy Heinsohn and Bailey Howell? I agree that Pippen was the better player btw. But what makes Pippen so next level that names like Howell and Heinsohn can't even be mentioned with his?

Pippen was significantly better help and man defender, playmaker, ball-handler and passer than Heinsohn. He was also a better rebounder, despite the raw numbers because the pace and different positions have to be taken into account. He drew fouls better as well. What makes Heinsohn even comparable? His scoring? Heinoshn wasn't even better scorer than Pippen:

1991-95 Pippen: 20.4 pp75 on +1.2 rTS%
1959-63 Heinsohn: 19.7 pp75 on -0.4 rTS%

There are levels to that, Heinsohn has only shooting over Pippen and the gap isn't really big. Sure, you may argue that Heinsohn was a better tough shot maker, I will agree with that. Again though, Heinoshn supposedly played with 4 Pippen-level players and he couldn't even score at above league average efficiency at not very high volume. Tom was a good player and had his value, but Pippen is at worst top 40 player ever.

Do you even know how Heinsohn played? Or all you know about him is his basketball-reference page?

[coastalmarker99]

Bill Russell's All NBA Teammates:

1957= Two 1st Tm
1958= Two 1st Tm
1959= Two 1st Tm
1960= One 1st Tm, One 2nd
1961= One 1st Tm, One 2nd
1962= Two 2nd Tm
1963= Two 2nd Tm
1964= Two 2nd Tm
1965= One 2nd Tm
1966= Two 2nd Tm
1967= One 2nd Tm
1968= One 2nd Tm
1969= One 2nd Tm


Wilt Chamberlain's All NBA Teammates:

1960= None
1961= None
1962= None
1963= None
1964= None
1965= One 2nd Tm
1966= One 2nd Tm
1967= One 2nd Tm
1968= One 2nd Tm
1969= One 1st Tm, One 2nd
*1970*(injured)= One 1st Tm
1971= One 1st Tm
1972= One 1st Tm
1973= One 1st Tm


Jordan's All NBA Teammates:

1992= One 2nd Tm
1993= One 2nd Tm
1995= One 1st Tm
1996= One 1st Tm
1997= One 2nd
1998= one 3rd.

[coastalmarker99]

I have no issue with anyone taking Russell over Jordan

But I just think Mike was a better 2-way player, and unlike Russell, had no weakness utterly dominating on both ends of the floor.

The fact that he is 6 and 0 in the finals with 6 FMVPs, 5 league MVPs, 10x scoring titles, DPOY, 9x all-defensive teams and 30 PPG career average that only went up during the playoffs with a career 50% clip on midrange & dunks is insane.


It also helps that he was the clear-cut best player of his era, unlike Russell, despite his 11 rings.

As Wilt was voted First Team All-NBA, and ahead of Russell, in '60, '61, '62, '64, '66, '67, and '68...

While Russell only beat him out in '63 and '65 (and neither were voted either first or second team in '69.)

Also In published lists (primarily books and mags but I've included Rosen's, ESPN's composite rankings and the AP Player of the Century poll) it goes 12-7 in favour of Chamberlain in terms of who is ranked higher between him and Russell.

Remove the aforementioned internet/AP rankings and it's 10-6.

Futhermore

Did you know in 1999, ESPN's "panel of experts" came out with their 100 greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

It is interesting, though in the NBA department, that Wilt came in second behind MJ (no surprise, since MJ had just come off a title run and retired.)

With Magic 3rd, Russell 4th, and Kareem 5th.

[coastalmarker99]

1995 Knicks forum post ranks the best centers ever

Thought this was kind of interesting as a NBA history buff to see how ordinary NBA fans felt at the time

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.sports.basketball.pro.ny-knicks/c/TDNxkJDFWhE/m/mQvBLfdOumQJ?pli=1

(5th best gets one point where fourth best gets two points, third best gets 3 points)

Wilt Chamberlain 147 pts.
Kareem Abdul Jabbar 136pts.
Hakeem Olajuwon 110 pts.
Bill Russell 107 pts.
Moses Malone 25 pts.


It's easy to forget now with how well Kareem's reputation has aged and to an extent how poorly Wilt's reputation has but back then Wilt > Kareem and Russell was close to the majority opinion.


Everybody I can remember was debating Wilt vs Jordan for goat in the 1990s there is a reason why Jordan and Wilt argued with each other for hours as to who was the goat at the NBA's 50 all-time event.

Hell even Russell himself admitted at the event that Wilt was the Goat.

"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at the 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honoured its 50 greatest players.

"He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

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[tone wone]

Horace Grant was a legitimate All-Defense caliber PF while providing efficient 3rd-4th option offense, but Kevin Love was a legitimate All-NBA PF and put-up a Top-10 PF peak season of the 2010's literally right before he got traded to Cleveland. Both of you guys are being hyperbolic to prop-up agendas here IMO.

Well, that's why I said over Cavs Love and in some situations, not all. I think Love wasn't the same player after 2014 when he lost mass. He was still a very good offensive third option who provided excellent spacing and shooting, but his defense was never strong and he couldn't create from the post anymore. I think peak Grant was a better player than this version of Love.

This always seems like a very convenient pro-Lebron narrative. Not accusing you of that per say, but I don't see the evidence that Love suddenly dropped off the second he became a Cav, as much as playing with Lebron forced him into a less optimized role. He slimmed down precisely because they wanted him to be a glorified floor-spacer, and in playing further away from the basket, mitigated two of his greatest strengths, re: offensive rebounding & his play-making ability out of the high post. It's one of the reasons I'm not nearly as high on pre-2018 Lebron as an overall floor general. I don't think he really understood how to maximize his front court teammates (Bosh included) until a player like Davis' caliber came to LA and he happily accepted a more facilitating role.

Love wasnt forced into anything. He was a supposely star bigman who couldnt finish in traffic. Like, the dude couldnt make layups. His entire interior game was completely neutered by like-sized defenders....if it wasn't a clear mismatch, he couldnt do a thing in the paint other than flop around for fouls. Thats not someone who deserves more primacy over 2 vastly superior creators like Lebron and Kyrie. He deserves credit for improving his mobility after 2016; he became much better at attacking closeouts (though he still couldn't finish in traffic) making him a bit more dynamic than the previous 2 seasons.

Overall, you're talking about a player with a very narrow scope of effectiveness...weak interior game; very little off the dribble. High volume 3pt shooting was the thing he brought against all teams; and the Cavs did an excellent job of leveraging that shooting....hence his strong on-off numbers.