Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did

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Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#1 » by coastalmarker99 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:35 am

In this hypothetical scenario.

A 35 to 36-year-old Kareem decides to retire after being destroyed and Swept by Moses in the 1983 finals.


As a result, his resume would now look like this.

3 rings

5 finals appearances

1 finals MVP

6 MVP's

8 x all NBA first team.

4 x all NBA second team.

5× NBA All-Defensive First Team

5× NBA All-Defensive Second Team


29810 points which would see him now be ranked eight on the all-time scoring list.

14,418 rebounds which would see him now be ranked 12th all-time on the all-time rebounding list

2480 blocks which would see him now be ranked 10th all-time on the all-time blocks list

3632 playoff points which see him now drop out of the top ten.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#2 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:38 am

still higher than Wilt
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#3 » by 70sFan » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:39 am

Top 5 player of all-time, although the conversation between him and Wilt/Shaq/Hakeem would be a lot closer. 1984-86 years gave him a lot for total career value.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#4 » by penbeast0 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:40 am

I have Wilt higher already (last time I did it anyway), so he would still be my leader for the 4th slot where I have him but without the level of cushion over Duncan, Magic, etc. but then I give a lot less credit for good but not great seasons when dealing with other ATGs who have 8 or so great seasons.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#5 » by coastalmarker99 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:46 am

Texas Chuck wrote:still higher than Wilt


It would be an incredibly tight debate between them nowadays.

3 rings vs 2.

2 finals MVP vs 1 finals MVP as Wilt would have won the award in 1967.

4 MVP's vs 6 MVP's

31419 points vs 29810 points

23,924 rebounds vs 14,418 rebounds

3607 playoff points vs 3632 playoff points
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#6 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:01 pm

He'd move below Russell and Duncan for me. Wilt and Shaq would also become arguable so anywhere from 5th to 7th.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#7 » by coastalmarker99 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:07 pm

What argument would Duncan have over Kareem even if he played only 14 seasons?

6 MVPs vs 2

5 rings vs 3 rings

5 finals vs 6 finals

2 finals MVPs to 3 Finals MVPs as Kareem was robbed in 1980.

29810 points vs 26496 points

14,418 rebounds vs 15091 rebounds


Kareem would have 9 seasons as the clear-cut best player in the world.

To Tim's 2 or three.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#8 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:56 pm

coastalmarker99 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:still higher than Wilt


It would be an incredibly tight debate between them nowadays.

3 rings vs 2.

2 finals MVP vs 1 finals MVP as Wilt would have won the award in 1967.

4 MVP's vs 6 MVP's

31419 points vs 29810 points

23,924 rebounds vs 14,418 rebounds

3607 playoff points vs 3632 playoff points


But when evaluating players we obviously don't just count stats.....
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#9 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:10 pm

coastalmarker99 wrote:What argument would Duncan have over Kareem even if he played only 14 seasons?

6 MVPs vs 2

5 rings vs 3 rings

5 finals vs 6 finals

2 finals MVPs to 3 Finals MVPs as Kareem was robbed in 1980.

29810 points vs 26496 points

14,418 rebounds vs 15091 rebounds


Kareem would have 9 seasons as the clear-cut best player in the world.

To Tim's 2 or three.


You're blaming Duncan for playing at the same time as guys like Shaq, Kobe, Dirk, KG and LeBron, while forgetting almost all of Kareem's "clear cut best years" came in the sub-par 70s where he barely had any competition. Despite that oversight I thought you'd know by now most people here don't subscribe to the idea of total points, rings and MVPs being everything for player evaluations.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#10 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:51 pm

Still Top-5 and arguably Top-3 for me (I have him a firm #2 behind Jordan). People overrate post-prime longevity.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#11 » by Ambrose » Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:28 pm

I have him third, and that would probably push him to ~5th for me.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#12 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:47 pm

Thank goodness he didn't listen to Wilts ridiculous nonsense after the 83 Finals.

Yes he got thoroughly outplayed but he didn't get stopped on the offensive end by Moses and still had a lot left in the tank.

Still a top 2 Center of all time. What he did in the 85 Finals pushed him to GOAT C status for me personally. None of the other HOF Cs could've had the series he had at that age, vs that calibre of competition.

They were all retired or role players by that age.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#13 » by Stalwart » Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:24 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
coastalmarker99 wrote:What argument would Duncan have over Kareem even if he played only 14 seasons?

6 MVPs vs 2

5 rings vs 3 rings

5 finals vs 6 finals

2 finals MVPs to 3 Finals MVPs as Kareem was robbed in 1980.

29810 points vs 26496 points

14,418 rebounds vs 15091 rebounds


Kareem would have 9 seasons as the clear-cut best player in the world.

To Tim's 2 or three.


You're blaming Duncan for playing at the same time as guys like Shaq, Kobe, Dirk, KG and LeBron, while forgetting almost all of Kareem's "clear cut best years" came in the sub-par 70s where he barely had any competition. Despite that oversight I thought you'd know by now most people here don't subscribe to the idea of total points, rings and MVPs being everything for player evaluations.


But you still haven't explained what the argument would actually be...

I'm not seeing it.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#14 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:09 pm

Stalwart wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
coastalmarker99 wrote:What argument would Duncan have over Kareem even if he played only 14 seasons?

6 MVPs vs 2

5 rings vs 3 rings

5 finals vs 6 finals

2 finals MVPs to 3 Finals MVPs as Kareem was robbed in 1980.

29810 points vs 26496 points

14,418 rebounds vs 15091 rebounds


Kareem would have 9 seasons as the clear-cut best player in the world.

To Tim's 2 or three.


You're blaming Duncan for playing at the same time as guys like Shaq, Kobe, Dirk, KG and LeBron, while forgetting almost all of Kareem's "clear cut best years" came in the sub-par 70s where he barely had any competition. Despite that oversight I thought you'd know by now most people here don't subscribe to the idea of total points, rings and MVPs being everything for player evaluations.


But you still haven't explained what the argument would actually be...

I'm not seeing it.


Well Kareem's longevity takes a big hit here first of all. Duncan played 1392 games and 47k minutes. If Kareem retired after 83 he'd go from 1560 to 1090 games played and from 57k to 43k minutes. Now obviously just playing more in itself isn't enough of an argument, we're not going to put Karl Malone and Stockton over Duncan either because they played more. However, when there are two top 10 players where a longevity advantage suddenly swings the other way that does make an impact. This does depend on how highly you rate Duncan though. If you're someone who has Duncan as a fringe top 10 guy, which is a pretty common ranking for him in media all-time lists, then a longevity swing like this probably isn't going to be enough but when you have Duncan right below the GOATs like I do it's less of a jump to make. I see Duncan at his best as on the same level as Kareem at his peak and while Kareem does definitely have more "top of the league" years, like I said this often was because of a lack of elite competition. Plenty of Kareem years where he was the best player in the league aren't better than like 2000 Shaq, 04 KG, late 00s Kobe, late 00s-early 10s LeBron etc. Just because Duncan wasn't the #1 in the league for as many years does not necessarily mean that he did not have a similar level of elite years where he only wasn't #1 because one or a couple others were putting in all-time seasons.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#15 » by Cavsfansince84 » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:03 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
Well Kareem's longevity takes a big hit here first of all. Duncan played 1392 games and 47k minutes. If Kareem retired after 83 he'd go from 1560 to 1090 games played and from 57k to 43k minutes. Now obviously just playing more in itself isn't enough of an argument, we're not going to put Karl Malone and Stockton over Duncan either because they played more. However, when there are two top 10 players where a longevity advantage suddenly swings the other way that does make an impact. This does depend on how highly you rate Duncan though. If you're someone who has Duncan as a fringe top 10 guy, which is a pretty common ranking for him in media all-time lists, then a longevity swing like this probably isn't going to be enough but when you have Duncan right below the GOATs like I do it's less of a jump to make. I see Duncan at his best as on the same level as Kareem at his peak and while Kareem does definitely have more "top of the league" years, like I said this often was because of a lack of elite competition. Plenty of Kareem years where he was the best player in the league aren't better than like 2000 Shaq, 04 KG, late 00s Kobe, late 00s-early 10s LeBron etc. Just because Duncan wasn't the #1 in the league for as many years does not necessarily mean that he did not have a similar level of elite years where he only wasn't #1 because one or a couple others were putting in all-time seasons.


Peakwise I agree they are on a similar level. Even 3-4 best years but some of Duncan's best years were impacted by injuries and I think he wasn't quite the same after 2005. Kareem otoh had no major injuries and was basically at near peak level for about 10 years in a row. Had Duncan stayed at his 03 level for another 5-6 years I think he wins a lot more mvps. It wasn't his competition so much that he dropped off some and played less.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#16 » by Dooley » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:25 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Still Top-5 and arguably Top-3 for me (I have him a firm #2 behind Jordan). People overrate post-prime longevity.

I agree in principle that people overrate post-prime longevity, but think it's important for Kareem specifically

Partly because he was still very very good from 1984-87, but also because that strong post-prime play is a very useful indicator that he really was playing at a GOAT level during his prime. There are a lot of little niggling questions you can raise about Kareem's play during the 70s - it was generally a weak era historically speaking and Kareem for various reasons didn't win a lot. The fact that Kareem continued to be an outstanding scoring big man well after his prime, in a less questionable era of competition, is really significant and helps to answer those concerns for me.
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#17 » by Narigo » Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:45 pm

Top 3
Narigo's Fantasy Team

PG: Damian Lillard
SG: Sidney Moncrief
SF:
PF: James Worthy
C: Tim Duncan

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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#18 » by ceoofkobefans » Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:48 am

This would have him retire after 1983 if my math is right. You lose 3 clear all nba+ caliber years (84/85/86) and then another 2 clear all star years in 87 and 88. 14 very high quality years in the 70s and 80s is still enough for me to say he has clear t10 longevity (prolly would be behind LeBron TD Karl Malone Kobe and kg) but I think losing those 5 HQ years bumps down his longevity enough towhere his t3 spot is no longer a lock and he can even be seen out of the top 10. TD Shaq Kobe and Hakeem I would all give arguments over him
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#19 » by 70sFan » Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:19 am

ceoofkobefans wrote:This would have him retire after 1983 if my math is right. You lose 3 clear all nba+ caliber years (84/85/86) and then another 2 clear all star years in 87 and 88. 14 very high quality years in the 70s and 80s is still enough for me to say he has clear t10 longevity (prolly would be behind LeBron TD Karl Malone Kobe and kg) but I think losing those 5 HQ years bumps down his longevity enough towhere his t3 spot is no longer a lock and he can even be seen out of the top 10. TD Shaq Kobe and Hakeem I would all give arguments over him

So you think that Kareem's prime by itself isn't strong enough to lock him inside top 10?
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Re: Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did 

Post#20 » by falcolombardi » Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:37 am

Paradlxically enough. I think it may make him higher to some people (not all, but some)

1- because having great longevity is a double edged sword. I have got the impression that players famous for longevity and without clear cut peaks are more likely to have their peak and prime level of play undertalked in comparision to shorter longevity peers

2- it likely means magic doesnt win all of his rings. Maybe he wins another 1-2 (or not) but he has less rings almost for sure (unless lakers get another worthy like draft steal)

In that situation people become lower on magic and give most of the credit to kareem for the 80 and 82 rings. People stop associating kareem as "magic sidekick

Silly as it is. Magic getting less succes later on means kareem first 3 rings get more credit

Of course this wouldnt be the case for everyone. To most casual fan people kareem with 3 rings is not the same as kareem with 6 rings. (I think more than longevity loss, the mainstream audience would be lower on him for this) and the "hardcore" audience (aka, us here) care about the lost post prime years.

But for the most part, the lion share of kareem career came in the first 14 years, 84-88 is mostly an extra that helps putting him over players like wilt or russel for most people

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