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Rui Hachimura 2.0

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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#561 » by badinage » Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:09 pm

A few people on here (nate33 and dczards, among them) have said that Rui is a good man defender and a poor team defender (with little awareness of space).

So, given that, and given his 3-ball (which didn’t just show growth last year, it took an extraordinary leap — kid hit ~45% from downtown, and coming back from what all rumors suggest was a long bout of mental illness, with all the conditioning loss that resulted) why not convert his game to that of a 3-and-D wing?
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#562 » by nate33 » Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:48 pm

badinage wrote:A few people on here (nate33 and dczards, among them) have said that Rui is a good man defender and a poor team defender (with little awareness of space).

So, given that, and given his 3-ball (which didn’t just show growth last year, it took an extraordinary leap — kid hit ~45% from downtown, and coming back from what all rumors suggest was a long bout of mental illness, with all the conditioning loss that resulted) why not convert his game to that of a 3-and-D wing?

I think that is exactly what Wes Jr. is doing.

In his rookie year, just 18% of Rui's FGA's came from 3-point range
In his second year, just 21% of his FGA's came from 3-point range
Last year, when it became evident that he could hit the 3-ball, that number took a massive jump up to 32%. Over his final 23 games, that number was up to 35%

For comparison, in Otto Porter's final 3 seasons with Washington (his 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons), about 37% of his FGA's came from 3P range. So Rui is already nearly as "3&D" as Otto Porter was.

I think Rui is well underway to being a net positive player on offense. The problem is that, for a 3&D player, his D is lacking.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#563 » by doclinkin » Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:54 pm

payitforward wrote:What I did do was talk about what one might or might not "expect" (or even "predict") from Rui vs. what one might "hope for" from him, a useful distinction in pretty much every aspect of life, basketball not excluded.


Ah so you offer as profound analysis that we cannot know the future. Got it. Thank you my well credentialed guru. I am now schooled. I will not even suggest the counter "we will see". Perhaps we will, perhaps we will not!

I suggest only that Rui in particular is a player who is pass dependent. That if you ask him to do too much his numbers will suffer. He forces more fouls if you can feed him when he is in the paint. He scores with more efficiency when he gets the ball near the rim. He forces fewer bad shots when he has more opportunities in close.

Again an insight not terribly profound: if his teammates are better, Rui will benefit. But at the least it provides a counter to the idea that Rui is doomed to be worthless. Either on court or in trade. I *predict* that this year his numbers will look somewhat better than last year. And his value shall increase.

I know, I broke physics, I did something that you said may not be done: predict a thing. Now I backed up my suggestion with stats, feel free to show me where my reasoning is wrong. But simply saying: "No one can predict this thing you suggest. Because I have published many poems, and am thus the arbiter of all future probabilities". So far seems unpersuasive.

Oh also, as rejoinder you offer "I am rubber, you are glue," or "I know you are but what am I" or "nuh uh you're the poopyhead, look in the mirror", which we have all learned is an iron-clad argument that can only be overcome by escalation to "yeah so's your mom".

As in: "You so old, your momma painted those caves you visited." :clown:

Quote me on that. :

WIZBOARD SECRET EAST COAST VIGILANTE FORUM MESSAGE. Erase before quoting. (You know I'm just messing with you to bring content to the board. These pages are dull in the dog days before the season begins. Triply so now that we are no longer allowed to discuss the team's future unless Bradley Beal gives us permission). I'm stripmining stats for a suggestion of hope.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#564 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:22 pm

nate33 wrote:
badinage wrote:...why not convert (Rui's) game to that of a 3-and-D wing?

I think that is exactly what Wes Jr. is doing.... I think Rui is well underway to being a net positive player on offense. The problem is that, for a 3&D player, his D is lacking.... He just has no nose for the ball on defense

No question that, if we view Rui as a 3 on offense, he can be -- in fact last season he already was! -- "a net positive player on offense." That's a good thing.

But, of course, we can't simply "view" him that way -- for this to have real meaning, he'd have to be on the floor with another forward who is "a net positive player on offense" at the 4.

Then too, how does changing him to a "3-and-D wing" improve the problem of his defense? Of his poor feel for the game? Or, is the goal simply to neutralize the problem of his...
nate33 wrote:...very little playmaking skills on offense.

Plus, does the position change cost us some of the advantages of Rui's...
nate33 wrote:impressive physique and excellent balance and coordination ....as strong as the stronger 4's in the league...
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#565 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:32 pm

Here's the thing:

if Rui could just get his FT % & his rebounding back up to what they were his rookie year, then, given his improved shooting this last season, he'd be a net positive player, numbers-wise, on both offense & defense -- for a 4.

No position change needed.

Which would still leave one question: why can't this smart kid learn to be a better defender?

Is there really no way?

A lot of defense is effort of course. No one questions his effort. Is there really no way to address the "lack of feel" problem on defense?
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#566 » by doclinkin » Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:56 pm

payitforward wrote:Then too, how does changing him to a "3-and-D wing" improve the problem of his defense? Of his poor feel for the game? Or, is the goal simply to neutralize the problem of his...
nate33 wrote:...very little playmaking skills on offense.

Plus, does the position change cost us some of the advantages of Rui's...
nate33 wrote:impressive physique and excellent balance and coordination ....as strong as the stronger 4's in the league...


This is where coaching comes in and it gets interesting to me. I reflect back on Bruce Bowen's conversion to the prototypical 3&D guy. Popovich was able to use him in this role as a wing stopper despite his lack of high end athleticism etc. He became a cunning and dangerous player, but before that was mediocre at best in all respects.

Rui in this role can be sent to dog the opponent's best guy with really simple rules: stick him tight, challenge everything he does, stay in front of him, keep your hands up. It has been shown that vs high usage players 6'7" and up Rui has a negative effect on their individual eFG%. Yes he can be outfoxed in all other respects, but with his gifts he can be useful at the simple task of marking his guy and making it difficult. There are defenses that can be devised to take advantage of that. Basically this would be playing a modified Box and One zone defense (with Rui vs the big star instead of the PG pressing the ballhandler) or even a hybrid 1-3-1 -- depending on the personnel next to him or the position played by Rui's opponent.

We have 4 solid defenders at their position. Wright and Deni are multi-position defenders who slide well and can defend on the perimeter. (Wright 1-3, Deni 2-4). Gafford and Porzingis are intimidating interior players. Kuzma is a stout defensive rebounder.

Consider a defense where we play:

Wright 6'5"-- point of attack and wing defender, outside shooter on offense, mistake free passer
Deni 6'9"-- shown to slow players 2-4, except vs the speediest 2 guards. 2ndary playmaker on offense.
Rui 6'8"-- matched against high usage or oversized SF's and perimeter 4/5's. Spread the floor Big on offense, Down low force if left alone.
Kuzma 6'9"-- takes the other, rebounds misses, jack of all trades on offense
ZInger 7'3"-- in drop coverage, relying on the others to slow penetration enough to get in position. high post/roll man on offense.
--or--
Gafford 6'10" -- more mobile than ZInger, maybe less intimidating on pure size, but athletic to recover and erase mistakes. Lob dunk threat.

There Rui's role is easy: get that guy. Stop him. Make him pass. Wright and the other 2 forwards zone up behind him to cover any miscues or make up for the switch. Zinger plays polka with the 3-second role and sticks within one long step of the basket. A lot of length, everybody is big for their position.

On offense, in this or other configurations, teams commonly send their big to mark Rui. If they don't he can shoot over smaller players. It really doesn't matter what position designation you give him when he is on the floor with either of Kuz or Deni. This is where having an arsenal of interchangeable forwards is an asset. Whichever guy has the mismatch in quickness or strength gets their number called (or in the case of Deni, he finds the open guy). Rui is still bigger and stronger than many, if you can get him to crash the basket when teams send a slower guy out to him, or if he is marked by a smaller player, then he can get many easy dunks and force cheap fouls simply by diving towards the basket when he is told to go.

But that is coaching. And PG play. Setting him up for success. Getting him open. Using the gifts he does have.

Yeah ultimately you want every player on the court to be reading each other and making smart decisions all the time. IN this case though the smart decision with Rui is to simplify his role at both ends, and take advantage of the things he can do that few other players can. Yes he will pick up fouls. Yes teams will figure counters. But a few games a year (and against teams who are playoff bound especially) his defense will show potential for something special. If that part of his game can be polished. Even if we are dangling him for trade we can increase his value that way.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#567 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:03 am

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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#568 » by gambitx777 » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:16 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
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Just trade him. If the sports to much for him that's ok but don't dick around wheb he's up to get paid soon.

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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#569 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:31 am

(Not sure how reputable this source is):

https://www.interbasket.net/news/rui-hachimura-is-big-in-japan/33666/

Unprecedented value of the rising star

Since joining the NBA and showing out in the Tokyo Olympics, Hachimura has signed a number of big sponsorship deals.

Rui’s brand endorsement deals include Nike’s Jordan Brand, NEC, NBA 2K, Casio, Nissin Foods, SoftBank, SMBC, Taisho Pharmaceutical, Makita. On top of his $4.5 million playing salary, Hachimura’s off-court earnings are estimated at over $10 million. In particular Hachimura also has a signature shoe collaboration with the Rui Hachimura x Air Jordan 8.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#570 » by payitforward » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:49 pm

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:What I did do was talk about what one might or might not "expect" (or even "predict") from Rui vs. what one might "hope for" from him, a useful distinction in pretty much every aspect of life, basketball not excluded.


Ah so you offer as profound analysis that we cannot know the future. Got it. Thank you my well credentialed guru. I am now schooled. I will not even suggest the counter "we will see". Perhaps we will, perhaps we will not!

I suggest only that Rui in particular is a player who is pass dependent. That if you ask him to do too much his numbers will suffer. He forces more fouls if you can feed him when he is in the paint. He scores with more efficiency when he gets the ball near the rim. He forces fewer bad shots when he has more opportunities in close.

Again an insight not terribly profound: if his teammates are better, Rui will benefit. But at the least it provides a counter to the idea that Rui is doomed to be worthless. Either on court or in trade. I *predict* that this year his numbers will look somewhat better than last year. And his value shall increase.

I know, I broke physics, I did something that you said may not be done: predict a thing. Now I backed up my suggestion with stats, feel free to show me where my reasoning is wrong. But simply saying: "No one can predict this thing you suggest. Because I have published many poems, and am thus the arbiter of all future probabilities". So far seems unpersuasive.

Oh also, as rejoinder you offer "I am rubber, you are glue," or "I know you are but what am I" or "nuh uh you're the poopyhead, look in the mirror", which we have all learned is an iron-clad argument that can only be overcome by escalation to "yeah so's your mom".

As in: "You so old, your momma painted those caves you visited." :clown:

Quote me on that. :

WIZBOARD SECRET EAST COAST VIGILANTE FORUM MESSAGE. Erase before quoting. (You know I'm just messing with you to bring content to the board. These pages are dull in the dog days before the season begins. Triply so now that we are no longer allowed to discuss the team's future unless Bradley Beal gives us permission). I'm stripmining stats for a suggestion of hope.

Somehow I missed this post -- with its clever hidden closing message.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#571 » by tleikheen » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:21 pm

Hachimura was dominant in his 25 minutes of action, putting up 13 points on 5-of-9 shooting from the field to go along with nine rebounds and one steal. His strength and physicality were apparent from the moment he stepped foot on the court, gobbling up every rebound that came his way, getting to the rim at will, and defending at a high level.



Rui is going to command attn with his physical prowess on the court and that will keep defenses from cheating on Beal and KP

He played in the starting unit next to Kuzma and Porzingis in the front court, and fit in nicely with each. That trio could be a force to be reckoned with up front. Hachimura has the strength to pair with the length and athleticism of Kuzma and Porzingis.


Not forgetting Deni in anyway because he brings length ,athleticism, and dogged defense to the front court and cant wait for the lineup combinations of KP ,Kuz,Rui,Deni Gaff and Corey are going to exhibit every night.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#572 » by nate33 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:09 pm

Kuzma and Hachimura are each on expiring contracts. The way I see it, we can afford to keep only one of them going forward. It's show me time for Rui.

(If we had any foresight, we would make the decision on which guy to keep by the Trade Deadline, and then trade the other guy for value rather than let him walk in the offseason. Hopefully, Sheppard has this in the back of his mind.)
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#573 » by nate33 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:10 pm

tleikheen wrote:
Hachimura was dominant in his 25 minutes of action, putting up 13 points on 5-of-9 shooting from the field to go along with nine rebounds and one steal. His strength and physicality were apparent from the moment he stepped foot on the court, gobbling up every rebound that came his way, getting to the rim at will, and defending at a high level.


He played in the starting unit next to Kuzma and Porzingis in the front court, and fit in nicely with each. That trio could be a force to be reckoned with up front. Hachimura has the strength to pair with the length and athleticism of Kuzma and Porzingis.

Source?
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#574 » by smoothSeph » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:13 pm

tleikheen wrote:
Hachimura was dominant in his 25 minutes of action, putting up 13 points on 5-of-9 shooting from the field to go along with nine rebounds and one steal. His strength and physicality were apparent from the moment he stepped foot on the court, gobbling up every rebound that came his way, getting to the rim at will, and defending at a high level.



Rui is going to command attn with his physical prowess on the court and that will keep defenses from cheating on Beal and KP

He played in the starting unit next to Kuzma and Porzingis in the front court, and fit in nicely with each. That trio could be a force to be reckoned with up front. Hachimura has the strength to pair with the length and athleticism of Kuzma and Porzingis.


Not forgetting Deni in anyway because he brings length ,athleticism, and dogged defense to the front court and cant wait for the lineup combinations of KP ,Kuz,Rui,Deni Gaff and Corey are going to exhibit every night.

Jokes on you because Barton is being given the starting job, not Rui or Deni :lol:
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#575 » by Frichuela » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:35 pm

nate33 wrote:Kuzma and Hachimura are each on expiring contracts. The way I see it, we can afford to keep only one of them going forward. It's show me time for Rui.

(If we had any foresight, we would make the decision on which guy to keep by the Trade Deadline, and then trade the other guy for value rather than let him walk in the offseason. Hopefully, Sheppard has this in the back of his mind.)


I sincerely hope he does. A good GM would try to extend Rui with a low-ball attractive offer. It's a gamble but this may increase his trade value or augment his inherent value if we retain him with an affordable contract.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#576 » by DCZards » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:56 pm

Rui step back!

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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#577 » by tleikheen » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:12 pm

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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#578 » by nate33 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:57 pm

smoothSeph wrote:
tleikheen wrote:
Hachimura was dominant in his 25 minutes of action, putting up 13 points on 5-of-9 shooting from the field to go along with nine rebounds and one steal. His strength and physicality were apparent from the moment he stepped foot on the court, gobbling up every rebound that came his way, getting to the rim at will, and defending at a high level.



Rui is going to command attn with his physical prowess on the court and that will keep defenses from cheating on Beal and KP

He played in the starting unit next to Kuzma and Porzingis in the front court, and fit in nicely with each. That trio could be a force to be reckoned with up front. Hachimura has the strength to pair with the length and athleticism of Kuzma and Porzingis.


Not forgetting Deni in anyway because he brings length ,athleticism, and dogged defense to the front court and cant wait for the lineup combinations of KP ,Kuz,Rui,Deni Gaff and Corey are going to exhibit every night.

Jokes on you because Barton is being given the starting job, not Rui or Deni :lol:

It's possible Barton is the starter on Day 1, but I don't think it'll last very long. The bottom line is that Barton is a 31-year-old guy on an expiring contract for a team that absolutely does not have the luxtax room to resign him. He is a 1-year rental. He is not part of the team's future, and Wes is surely aware of it. As soon as one of Rui/Deni/Kispert even approaches the on-court production of Barton, he will start over him. If Barton is starting, it's because he is significantly outplaying the other options.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#579 » by payitforward » Sat Oct 1, 2022 2:02 am

tleikheen wrote:
Hachimura was dominant in his 25 minutes of action, putting up 13 points on 5-of-9 shooting from the field to go along with nine rebounds and one steal. His strength and physicality were apparent from the moment he stepped foot on the court, gobbling up every rebound that came his way, getting to the rim at will, and defending at a high level.

Rui is going to command attn with his physical prowess on the court and that will keep defenses from cheating on Beal and KP...

Who are you quoting? Absolutely, Rui had a good outing, but he certainly wasn't dominant. Why would anyone think so?

Nor did he score "13 points on 5-9 shooting." He scored 13 points on 9 shots & 7 free throw attempts. That's a .538 TS% -- way below average & way below what he posted on the whole season last year.

The 9 boards, OTOH, were outstanding -- especially given that improving his rebounding is something Rui definitely needs to do.

&, yes, he had a steal -- plus a turnover to counter-balance it. Again, I don't know who you're quoting, but mentioning the steal while leaving out the TO is a classic homerism. :)

That said, it was terrific to see Rui play well in his first outing. & his demeanor was relaxed & confident. If, overall, he plays this well all season he will be an above average NBA forward.

...the starting unit next to Kuzma and Porzingis in the front court... could be a force to be reckoned with up front....

Again, don't know who you're quoting, but this is cartoon fantasy. For example, unlike Rui, Kuzma had quite a bad game -- someone gonna conclude he's a terrible player from his 20 minute outing in the first preseason game? :)

Rinse & repeat for KP.

Oh, & those 3 guys combined to go 1-15 on 3-point attempts! :)

Means nothing. None of it.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#580 » by Dat2U » Sat Oct 1, 2022 1:49 pm

nate33 wrote:Kuzma and Hachimura are each on expiring contracts. The way I see it, we can afford to keep only one of them going forward. It's show me time for Rui.

(If we had any foresight, we would make the decision on which guy to keep by the Trade Deadline, and then trade the other guy for value rather than let him walk in the offseason. Hopefully, Sheppard has this in the back of his mind.)


If we had any foresight we'd let these two drive the tank to get up the PPG and build trade value heading into the trade deadline

These two are clearly the least effective players in a 10 man rotation. I don't see a rush or priority to keep either. Rui at anything over $6-8 mil is bad idea if he's continual trainwreck on defense. And despite his recent 3pt shooting he's still a drag offensively because the ball sticks, he doesn't see the floor well and he still doesn't know the difference b/w a good & bad shot.

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