Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden?

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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#41 » by Owly » Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:36 pm

Sark wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
Sark wrote:C'mon man, that's the game after he put up 43, with 25 in the 3rd quarter, on a badly sprained ankle.

The fact that he even played is a miracle. Definitely not a choke, if you actually use context.

Oh so we are allowing context and injury excuses for Isiah?



Injuries are always brought up, and are part of the discussion for everyone. For instance I've never seen anyone discuss the 2015 finals and not discuss Kyrie or Love's injuries.

I think the point is consistency.

Not sure where you're going ... it seems to be "People bring up LeBron's teammates being injured"? Presumably as an explanatory factor in LeBron's team losing.

But the question here isn't from the perspective of Piston X how do they fare without teammate Y/with reduced teammate Y. It's about does one (and to what degree) hold injury-related absences or reduced performances against the injured player. And one can say it's mostly luck and circumstance and outside the main domain of the basketball player or too hard to measure in a vacuum away from those specific circumstances or one can view availability as of immense importance, 'you played what you did, you helped/harmed what you did, you "forced" a replacement when you did.' I'd struggle with a really extreme not mattering position but as ever if one is clear one can at least have an open discussion without talking at cross purposes.

So what happened here? Someone invokes Isiah Thomas (in a thread not about him) in a game from a series he loses. Someone else notes his poor shooting in the final “deciding” game saying that "looks like a choke" (language I've already distanced myself from in this thread). It is probably fair to say Thomas is hobbled. It also probably fair to highlight that when comparing a Paul weak game 4 years older than Thomas's final season, roughly 7 years older than Thomas's last relevant season and is also reported to be carrying an injury and the person posting about Thomas and posting videos about "Isiah Thomas eliminates Michael Jordan" ... doesn't see fit to mention that and you ... in highlighting Thomas's injury - don't see fit to mention that ... I would hope you could see that that could at least appear to be an imbalanced perspective. If one is treating things the same for all parties there shouldn't be any issues except for perhaps preferences in the meta discussion.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#42 » by michaelm » Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:06 pm

Accidental post.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#43 » by Ein Sof » Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:34 pm

CP3 easily. His playoff resume speaks for itself. He's arguably the second biggest choker of all time after Wilt.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#44 » by NBA4Lyfe » Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:40 pm

cp3 lost a homecourt playoff game by 61 points to marshmelo anthony
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#45 » by AEnigma » Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:00 pm

NBA4Lyfe wrote:cp3 lost a homecourt playoff game by 61 points to marshmelo anthony

That is why I will always have Clutchey Billups over Choke Paul.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#46 » by OhayoKD » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:09 am

AEnigma wrote:
NBA4Lyfe wrote:cp3 lost a homecourt playoff game by 61 points to marshmelo anthony

That is why I will always have Clutchey Billups over Choke Paul.

1 ring, 1 7 game final loss, 1 finals mvp vs 0 ring, 1 6 game final loss, and 0 final mvp.

His playoff resume speaks for itself
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#47 » by f4p » Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:09 pm

Chronz wrote:As for 2015, that series alone should tell you how much of a team game this is. The other guy in that series was James Harden and the Rockets legit survived because they benched him in the most critical moment. Harden choked harder than CP3 ever could but his team won because they sat his choking ass down.


lol, they won because josh smith and corey brewer scored 29 combined 4th quarter points while shooting 9/13 from the field and 5/7 from 3, arguably one of the least likely occurrences in NBA history. it's not like harden was holding amazing shooting smith and brewer back and they were unleashed without harden around (they combined for 42 TS% the rest of the series. 2 people at 42 TS%!). anyway, pointing out harden being bad always seems like a weird flex in regards to CP3, since it just means CP3 got demolished by josh smith and corey brewer, getting outscored 40-15 in the 4th.


Harden is EASILY the bigger choker. This dude didn't just lose to inferior teams, hes outright MIA in several runs.


lol, what? harden is 10-3 as an SRS favorite, and those "upsets" are:

1. 2012 finals as a bench player against the heatles as a +0.7 SRS favorite, a series i'm guessing most people don't even realize the thunder were favored.
2. 2014 1st round as a +0.6 SRS favorite, when a 54 win 4th-seeded rockets lost to a 54 win 5th-seeded portland. probably won't make a hollywood movie out of that upset.
3. 2018 WCF against durant warriors as a +2.4 SRS favorite, a series where pretty much no one considers the rockets the favorite and where the warriors were only lower in SRS because they didn't try in the regular season. and of course, where CP3 got injured once again.

that's the list of all these "inferior" teams harden lost to. and the heatles and durant warriors are 2 of the 3. before last year, where harden just sucked, i believe he had lost to 7 champions, the 2019 warriors who would have been champions without injuries, the 73 win warriors who went to game 7 of the finals, the 61 win spurs, the +9 SRS thunder in 2013, and then that 54 win portland team. he's basically the ultimate beat who you are supposed to, lose to who you are supposed to player. as for MIA for several runs, it's weird how his overall playoffs numbers are basically equal to steph curry's overall playoff numbers. seems like MIA for a game here or there would be a better argument because his overall case is fairly good (8 straight years of averaging 26+ ppg in the playoffs hasn't been done by that many people).

going back to harden being 10-3 as an SRS favorite, this compares to CP3, who is 9-9 as an SRS favorite, the most losses of the 40 or so people i tracked. only duncan (8) and kareem (7) are close, but they played 40 such series to CP3's 18.

and it gets even worse going to +2 SRS favorites, where people not named chris paul were 408-55 in such series that i tracked.
CP3 is an incredible 5-5 (harden is 6-1, again with only the 2018 WCF). the only people with even 4 such losses are duncan (26-4), kareem (23-4), and Oscar (7-4). In terms of winning percentage, only dirk (50%, 3-3) and Oscar in his pre-Kareem years (33%, 1-2) are the same or worse.

and of course CP3 has a blown 3-1 lead and harden doesn't. he has 5 blown 2-0 leads and harden has none.

if losing upset series and blowing series leads are the usual hallmarks of "choking", then CP3 is basically at the top of both categories for anybody you care to look at, whereas harden hardly has any examples of either.



Look at some of his early first round flameouts,


he's been to the 2nd round 7 of the last 8 years and 9 of 13 times overall, with 3 of the 4 losses to the 2010 lakers, 2013 thunder, and 2016 warriors. so he was one supposed flameout (portland) in 13 years.

his no shows against the quality teams above the 1st round.


like being on the only team to give the durant warriors a scare (twice)? weird that the rest of the league was 5-33 against them and harden goes 5-8, even with CP3's injury games included and CP3 looking like crap in 2019, but somehow he's the choker who can't play against good teams.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#48 » by Antinomy » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:08 pm

CP3 has to be the most overanalyzed player in the NBA.

How did he choke against a better team in 2008 vs the Spurs?

How did he choke in 2015 when he missed 1 game & had a phenomenal Game 6 & 7?

How did he choke in 2016 when he didn’t even play in the final 2 games against Portland?

How did he choke in 2021 against the Bucks when he had like 1 bad game at 36 years old?

How did he choke in 2022 at 37 years old when he has two teammates who should’ve been carrying the load?
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#49 » by Chronz » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:52 pm

f4p wrote:lol, they won because josh smith and corey brewer scored 29 combined 4th quarter points while shooting 9/13 from the field and 5/7 from 3, arguably one of the least likely occurrences in NBA history.

Hence why calling that series a choke is so weird, it took the least likely occurrence to happen and even then, Harden was choking so hard that he had to be benched in order to give the least plausible scenario a chance to happen, thats exactly how **** Harden was.

Now IDK how you/people look at choking. I've had people tell me its better to win less games because the closer you get to victory the bigger of a choker you are and to me, thats ass backwards. Like when Tmac went up 3-1 vs a vastly superior team, only to lose in 7. I've had people say that was a choke job, a detriment to his legacy when in reality, its one of the greatest examples of heroics in defeat and an absolute highlight of his career.


it's not like harden was holding amazing shooting smith and brewer back and they were unleashed without harden around (they combined for 42 TS% the rest of the series. 2 people at 42 TS%!). anyway, pointing out harden being bad always seems like a weird flex in regards to CP3, since it just means CP3 got demolished by josh smith and corey brewer, getting outscored 40-15 in the 4th.

Nothing weird about the flex when you consider Smith and Brewer wound up being better options than Harden lmfao. Thats entirely the point, no matter how you boil it down, Harden choked harder, his team just won cuz they sat his choking ass down.

lol, what? harden is 10-3 as an SRS favorite, and those "upsets" are:

Its First round flameouts+MIA. That combination is key but yes, you are correct, most of his first round flameouts were reasonable in terms of team success, his own individual production however, different story entirely.
He declines in every single one of them, goes straight up ghost against Portland.


1. 2012 finals as a bench player against the heatles as a +0.7 SRS favorite, a series i'm guessing most people don't even realize the thunder were favored.

I gamble heavily, but this was before Harden was an established choker so I will admit I only went with the Heat for subjective reasons on top of my own barometers. Either way, Harden didn't just lose, he got his choking ass LOCKED DOWN and everyone on the Heat knew he would be the easiest to contain. And saying he was a bench player does a disservice to his role, he was a historically productive/efficient 6MOY who absolutely shriveled in the Finals. He was young, Ill give you that.


2. 2014 1st round as a +0.6 SRS favorite, when a 54 win 4th-seeded rockets lost to a 54 win 5th-seeded portland. probably won't make a hollywood movie out of that upset.

Isn't this the series where DameTime was born tho? Either way, Pedowood is too woke for anything worthwhile these days. And that upset is precisely the kind of blackmark Im asking for from the CP3 bashers. Harden was healthy and on a superior team, he shrank to degrees we rarely see from a star in the first round.

Also, that 2013 loss shouldn't be dismissed either, yes the Thunder were a superior team but they were without RWB after the Beverly collision and Harden played poorly overall.

that's the list of all these "inferior" teams harden lost to. and the heatles and durant warriors are 2 of the 3. before last year, where harden just sucked, i believe he had lost to 7 champions, the 2019 warriors who would have been champions without injuries, the 73 win warriors who went to game 7 of the finals, the 61 win spurs, the +9 SRS thunder in 2013, and then that 54 win portland team. he's basically the ultimate beat who you are supposed to, lose to who you are supposed to player. as for MIA for several runs, it's weird how his overall playoffs numbers are basically equal to steph curry's overall playoff numbers. seems like MIA for a game here or there would be a better argument because his overall case is fairly good (8 straight years of averaging 26+ ppg in the playoffs hasn't been done by that many people).

Nah, the ultimate in that regard would have to have a tendency of actually sustaining, if not elevating his level of play(at the very least not crater). Harden would shrink and be the reason his relatively equal team lost (vs Portland) or not put up much of a fight against the various injured teams he lost to.


going back to harden being 10-3 as an SRS favorite, this compares to CP3, who is 9-9 as an SRS favorite, the most losses of the 40 or so people i tracked. only duncan (8) and kareem (7) are close, but they played 40 such series to CP3's 18.

Feel free to point them out, Ill give you the missing context. For example, the SRS dictates the series vs Portland should have gone differently, but that ignores the physical state of both teams come playoffs. Without Blake and CP3 himself hobbled, the Clippers should be expected to lose. If you consider injuries to be choking then we dont view the game the same way.

and of course CP3 has a blown 3-1 lead and harden doesn't. he has 5 blown 2-0 leads and harden has none.

Harden not getting a 3-1 lead and winning that series where he was behind 3-1 because they sat his ass down is why I dont care about raw/blind glances at numbers. The context of that series was clear, Harden choked harder, his team just won despite him. Thats how much of a team game this is.

weird that the rest of the league was 5-33 against them and harden goes 5-8, even with CP3's injury games included and CP3 looking like crap in 2019, but somehow he's the choker who can't play against good teams.

I dont see whats weird when you look at the talent differential and the defensive support behind the stars.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#50 » by f4p » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:28 pm

Dooley wrote:I do wonder if refs were intentionally punishing Harden in the 2018 and 2019 postseason

Harden's postseason FTR is, in general, historically high. He's right up there with the best foul-drawing guards in history. He absolutely has a proven track record of generating free-throws in the playoffs. 2018 and 2019 specifically are huge outliers where his free-throw rate is much lower than his career post-season rate and also much lower than his RS numbers from those years. It's a very dramatic dropoff.


they absolutely were. which is why it's hilarious when people say both "haha, he finally isn't getting those calls" and "why is his game falling off?" you think one might have something to do with the other? i believe he had one of the biggest playoff FTR dropoffs of anyone in the league. it was absurd enough that 2019 steph curry had the same playoff FTR as 2019 harden (0.364 vs 0.371), after harden nearly doubled him up in the regular season (0.214 vs 0.449). that's closing a more than 100% differential for a league favorite vs a league villain. you think that doesn't affect who wins close series? a 3 point shooter versus one of the most relentless drivers in the league and somehow steph had the higher FTR? and people think refs help harden.

all you have to do is look at game 7 in 2018 against the warriors and game 1 in 2019 against the warriors. over the course of 48 game minutes, harden was obviously fouled on 5 3 pointers without a call and had a 6th play where he made a 3 and then scott foster ran in and called a foul just to say it was on the floor so the 3 didn't count. and that's not me saying it, it's reggie miller/chris webber saying it without seeing replays in 2018 and jvg/mark jackson/breen saying it in 2019 as they watch replay after replay of klay running under harden zaza-style. 6 three point missed calls in 48 game minutes! in games decided by a combined 13 points. you think that doesn't affect legacies?
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#51 » by OhayoKD » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:55 pm

Chronz wrote:
f4p wrote:lol, they won because josh smith and corey brewer scored 29 combined 4th quarter points while shooting 9/13 from the field and 5/7 from 3, arguably one of the least likely occurrences in NBA history.

Hence why calling that series a choke is so weird, it took the least likely occurrence to happen and even then, Harden was choking so hard that he had to be benched in order to give the least plausible scenario a chance to happen, thats exactly how **** Harden was.

Now IDK how you/people look at choking. I've had people tell me its better to win less games because the closer you get to victory the bigger of a choker you are and to me, thats ass backwards. Like when Tmac went up 3-1 vs a vastly superior team, only to lose in 7. I've had people say that was a choke job, a detriment to his legacy when in reality, its one of the greatest examples of heroics in defeat and an absolute highlight of his career.


it's not like harden was holding amazing shooting smith and brewer back and they were unleashed without harden around (they combined for 42 TS% the rest of the series. 2 people at 42 TS%!). anyway, pointing out harden being bad always seems like a weird flex in regards to CP3, since it just means CP3 got demolished by josh smith and corey brewer, getting outscored 40-15 in the 4th.

Nothing weird about the flex when you consider Smith and Brewer wound up being better options than Harden lmfao. Thats entirely the point, no matter how you boil it down, Harden choked harder, his team just won cuz they sat his choking ass down.

lol, what? harden is 10-3 as an SRS favorite, and those "upsets" are:

Its First round flameouts+MIA. That combination is key but yes, you are correct, most of his first round flameouts were reasonable in terms of team success, his own individual production however, different story entirely.
He declines in every single one of them, goes straight up ghost against Portland.


1. 2012 finals as a bench player against the heatles as a +0.7 SRS favorite, a series i'm guessing most people don't even realize the thunder were favored.

I gamble heavily, but this was before Harden was an established choker so I will admit I only went with the Heat for subjective reasons on top of my own barometers. Either way, Harden didn't just lose, he got his choking ass LOCKED DOWN and everyone on the Heat knew he would be the easiest to contain. And saying he was a bench player does a disservice to his role, he was a historically productive/efficient 6MOY who absolutely shriveled in the Finals. He was young, Ill give you that.


2. 2014 1st round as a +0.6 SRS favorite, when a 54 win 4th-seeded rockets lost to a 54 win 5th-seeded portland. probably won't make a hollywood movie out of that upset.

Isn't this the series where DameTime was born tho? Either way, Pedowood is too woke for anything worthwhile these days. And that upset is precisely the kind of blackmark Im asking for from the CP3 bashers. Harden was healthy and on a superior team, he shrank to degrees we rarely see from a star in the first round.

Also, that 2013 loss shouldn't be dismissed either, yes the Thunder were a superior team but they were without RWB after the Beverly collision and Harden played poorly overall.

that's the list of all these "inferior" teams harden lost to. and the heatles and durant warriors are 2 of the 3. before last year, where harden just sucked, i believe he had lost to 7 champions, the 2019 warriors who would have been champions without injuries, the 73 win warriors who went to game 7 of the finals, the 61 win spurs, the +9 SRS thunder in 2013, and then that 54 win portland team. he's basically the ultimate beat who you are supposed to, lose to who you are supposed to player. as for MIA for several runs, it's weird how his overall playoffs numbers are basically equal to steph curry's overall playoff numbers. seems like MIA for a game here or there would be a better argument because his overall case is fairly good (8 straight years of averaging 26+ ppg in the playoffs hasn't been done by that many people).

Nah, the ultimate in that regard would have to have a tendency of actually sustaining, if not elevating his level of play(at the very least not crater). Harden would shrink and be the reason his relatively equal team lost (vs Portland) or not put up much of a fight against the various injured teams he lost to.


going back to harden being 10-3 as an SRS favorite, this compares to CP3, who is 9-9 as an SRS favorite, the most losses of the 40 or so people i tracked. only duncan (8) and kareem (7) are close, but they played 40 such series to CP3's 18.

Feel free to point them out, Ill give you the missing context. For example, the SRS dictates the series vs Portland should have gone differently, but that ignores the physical state of both teams come playoffs. Without Blake and CP3 himself hobbled, the Clippers should be expected to lose. If you consider injuries to be choking then we dont view the game the same way.

and of course CP3 has a blown 3-1 lead and harden doesn't. he has 5 blown 2-0 leads and harden has none.

Harden not getting a 3-1 lead and winning that series where he was behind 3-1 because they sat his ass down is why I dont care about raw/blind glances at numbers. The context of that series was clear, Harden choked harder, his team just won despite him. Thats how much of a team game this is.

weird that the rest of the league was 5-33 against them and harden goes 5-8, even with CP3's injury games included and CP3 looking like crap in 2019, but somehow he's the choker who can't play against good teams.

I dont see whats weird when you look at the talent differential and the defensive support behind the stars.

I feel like it's worth noting that regular season srs is largely a product of how well superstars on a team play during the regular season.

Example: James Harden didn't have as much help as kd or curry in 2018 but played much better in the rs leading to a better srs. Should that really be held against him?
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#52 » by f4p » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:17 am

Chronz wrote:
f4p wrote:lol, they won because josh smith and corey brewer scored 29 combined 4th quarter points while shooting 9/13 from the field and 5/7 from 3, arguably one of the least likely occurrences in NBA history.

Hence why calling that series a choke is so weird, it took the least likely occurrence to happen and even then, Harden was choking so hard that he had to be benched in order to give the least plausible scenario a chance to happen, thats exactly how **** Harden was.


and the only reason you call it a harden "choke" is precisely because smith/brewer went crazy and won the game in a way they could never, ever, ever replicate. if they don't do that, harden probably plays a few 4th quarter minutes, finishes with like 28 points (had 23 after 3 on bad shooting), the rockets lose to a better team and no one ever talks about the series again because it basically played out like you would expect. it's precisely only a choke because of the crazy comeback. basically you are taking something that had nothing to do with harden and retroactively calling it a choke because it happened without harden. again, as if harden was the reason smith/brewer couldn't shooting 71% on 3's. otherwise, it would just be a bad game from harden (bad but hardly some historically awful game) one game after having a triple double in what was also elimination game. you are allowed to have bad games against better teams without it being a "choke."

Now IDK how you/people look at choking. I've had people tell me its better to win less games because the closer you get to victory the bigger of a choker you are and to me, thats ass backwards. Like when Tmac went up 3-1 vs a vastly superior team, only to lose in 7. I've had people say that was a choke job, a detriment to his legacy when in reality, its one of the greatest examples of heroics in defeat and an absolute highlight of his career.


i mean nba history has shown that blowing leads is pretty rare, especially 2-0/3-1. it basically means you proved you could hang with a team or were even better than they are, and then right as you were there to finish it off, you choked and couldn't handle the pressure of closing them out. it's not like pointing out 2-0/3-1 blown leads is something unique i'm coming up with just for this thread. if a team just manhandles you 4-0, then you probably weren't better than them. and it's not like harden has some history of losing 4-0/4-1 to teams he was way better than, considering i just listed his 3 "upsets" and none of them fit that classification. so if he isn't losing to worse teams and isn't blowing series leads, i'm not sure what the "choke" label is coming from?


it's not like harden was holding amazing shooting smith and brewer back and they were unleashed without harden around (they combined for 42 TS% the rest of the series. 2 people at 42 TS%!). anyway, pointing out harden being bad always seems like a weird flex in regards to CP3, since it just means CP3 got demolished by josh smith and corey brewer, getting outscored 40-15 in the 4th.

Nothing weird about the flex when you consider Smith and Brewer wound up being better options than Harden lmfao. Thats entirely the point, no matter how you boil it down, Harden choked harder, his team just won cuz they sat his choking ass down.


i mean they were better options than a lot of people. 29 pts on 80+ TS% in the 4th quarter of an elimination game would be amazing for jordan and pippen. and how dare harden get something from smith and brewer other than unending bricks! he basically has to play the series with one hand tied behind his back because they are sub-replacement level on efficiency and then he sits and they turn into steph and klay. it's like you're punishing harden for his teammates finally making shots. and again, CP3 was on the court and got outscored 40-15 in the 4th in his chance to go to his 1st ever conference finals. i'm not sure how that doesn't fit every bit the label of choker.

lol, what? harden is 10-3 as an SRS favorite, and those "upsets" are:

Its First round flameouts+MIA. That combination is key but yes, you are correct, most of his first round flameouts were reasonable in terms of team success, his own individual production however, different story entirely.
He declines in every single one of them, goes straight up ghost against Portland.


so he mostly lost to vastly superior teams but you want to call it flameouts. he had a couple of low efficiency series (production was right in line with regular season in 2013 playoffs) in his early 20's in his first 2 series as a starter. you know who else has had some bad series early in their careers? practically everybody, especially just about anybody outside the all-time top 10. and it was almost a decade ago at this point. must this be held against him forever?

you'll notice most of the examples are from early in his career. he admittedly had some pretty big fall-offs back then but was great in the 2015 playoffs, everything but game 6 in 2017 (the one time i think you can truly say anything you want about what he did), and then has been about as good as you can expect since then. again, if i posted his prime (or even just as a starter) playoff numbers and steph's playoff numbers, and the differential from the regular season to the playoffs and told you to pick who was who, you probably wouldn't be able to.


2. 2014 1st round as a +0.6 SRS favorite, when a 54 win 4th-seeded rockets lost to a 54 win 5th-seeded portland. probably won't make a hollywood movie out of that upset.

Isn't this the series where DameTime was born tho? Either way, Pedowood is too woke for anything worthwhile these days. And that upset is precisely the kind of blackmark Im asking for from the CP3 bashers. Harden was healthy and on a superior team, he shrank to degrees we rarely see from a star in the first round.


didn't DameTime have one of the most horrendous first round series ever just a few years later? almost as if sometimes players have bad series? didn't Jimmy Butler come off a finals run and then have maybe an even more horrendous series than the one Dame had? only harden seems to never have any of his bad moments forgotten. and any impressive results and stats are just considered accidents or credited to other people. his overall play in the 2015 playoffs was great and yet literally the only thing people talk about is game 6 against the clippers or "12 turnovers, lol". if none of your good games count (28/11/9, 38/10/9, 45/9/5 just in the first 4 games of the WCF), then of course you will look bad.

Also, that 2013 loss shouldn't be dismissed either, yes the Thunder were a superior team but they were without RWB after the Beverly collision and Harden played poorly overall.


and the series was 2-2 after RWB got hurt, about what you would expect for a 9+ SRS team that lost it's 2nd best player against an 8th seed. were you expecting the rockets to storm to a 4-2 series victory with 23 year old harden flanked by jeremy lin, chandler parsons, and omer asik?



that's the list of all these "inferior" teams harden lost to. and the heatles and durant warriors are 2 of the 3. before last year, where harden just sucked, i believe he had lost to 7 champions, the 2019 warriors who would have been champions without injuries, the 73 win warriors who went to game 7 of the finals, the 61 win spurs, the +9 SRS thunder in 2013, and then that 54 win portland team. he's basically the ultimate beat who you are supposed to, lose to who you are supposed to player. as for MIA for several runs, it's weird how his overall playoffs numbers are basically equal to steph curry's overall playoff numbers. seems like MIA for a game here or there would be a better argument because his overall case is fairly good (8 straight years of averaging 26+ ppg in the playoffs hasn't been done by that many people).

Nah, the ultimate in that regard would have to have a tendency of actually sustaining, if not elevating his level of play(at the very least not crater). Harden would shrink and be the reason his relatively equal team lost (vs Portland) or not put up much of a fight against the various injured teams he lost to.


why does harden have to elevate his play to not be a choker? relatively few players ever have done that. if james harden's playoff numbers were as good as his regular season numbers, we'd almost be talking about him with lebron and putting him in top 10 all-time discussions. it's like somehow "james harden isn't as good as in the regular season" is just a license to downplay him all you want, even if his absolute play in the playoffs is still high. it's like you are basically punishing him for being ridiculously good in the regular season. a moderately athletic 6'5 shooting guard putting up otherworldly regular season numbers but then not sustaining them in the playoffs makes sense when everything he does, every trick he has can be focused on and his athleticism and physical limitations catch up to him (not unlike what happens to someone like curry, who is similarly hard to gameplan for in a regular season setting but can be limited with physical play and a strict focus on his style in a 7 game series).


going back to harden being 10-3 as an SRS favorite, this compares to CP3, who is 9-9 as an SRS favorite, the most losses of the 40 or so people i tracked. only duncan (8) and kareem (7) are close, but they played 40 such series to CP3's 18.

Feel free to point them out, Ill give you the missing context. For example, the SRS dictates the series vs Portland should have gone differently, but that ignores the physical state of both teams come playoffs. Without Blake and CP3 himself hobbled, the Clippers should be expected to lose. If you consider injuries to be choking then we dont view the game the same way.


i'm sure CP3 has quite a few bad losses to injuries. i'm not claiming otherwise. in fact, i've defended CP3 plenty over the years. but he is lapping the field on blown series leads and losses as a favorite. it's not close. they can't all be injuries. i mean he's probably somewhat a victim of his own regular season success like harden, where they arguably make their teams have better records than you would expect (especially harden with the volume he can take on), and then we expect them to hold up against teams that may have slacked off in the regular season. except harden has largely done that, basically only losing as an underdog or very slight favorite.

and of course CP3 has a blown 3-1 lead and harden doesn't. he has 5 blown 2-0 leads and harden has none.

Harden not getting a 3-1 lead and winning that series where he was behind 3-1 because they sat his ass down is why I dont care about raw/blind glances at numbers. The context of that series was clear, Harden choked harder, his team just won despite him. Thats how much of a team game this is.


again, how did harden choke? their series stats are pretty much equal. 25/8/6 vs 21/10/4, 20.4 game score for CP3 to 19.0 for harden. it's just a choke if harden doesn't play well in a certain game? is every bad game a choke now? the same game where CP3 blew like a 19 point lead? they kind of seem to equal out.

weird that the rest of the league was 5-33 against them and harden goes 5-8, even with CP3's injury games included and CP3 looking like crap in 2019, but somehow he's the choker who can't play against good teams.

I dont see whats weird when you look at the talent differential and the defensive support behind the stars.


i wasn't comparing harden to CP3, just harden to any other generic star. why is it when harden wins as many games against the durant warriors as the rest of the league combined, he's a huge playoff choker? he averaged like 32/7/6 in those 2 series as well. are the 2019 rockets with a clearly injured/past-his-prime CP3 really so absurdly talented that they should put up a way better fight than the 2017 cavs? is the #6 defense 2018 houston rockets what solves all the problems for the rockets, like they were the 2004 pistons? it's what i mean by, even when harden does something good like play well and almost take down an impossibly talented team, he still doesn't get credit for it from basically anybody. only his bad games/series count.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#53 » by Lost92Bricks » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:00 am

Antinomy wrote:CP3 has to be the most overanalyzed player in the NBA.

How did he choke against a better team in 2008 vs the Spurs?

How did he choke in 2015 when he missed 1 game & had a phenomenal Game 6 & 7?

How did he choke in 2016 when he didn’t even play in the final 2 games against Portland?

How did he choke in 2021 against the Bucks when he had like 1 bad game at 36 years old?

How did he choke in 2022 at 37 years old when he has two teammates who should’ve been carrying the load?

I've never seen a player get more blame for entire teams. There is no responsibility put on his teammates, it's insane.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#54 » by Statlanta » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:30 pm

Harden. Though Chris Paul's injury history magnifies the few times he fails spectacularly. Harden just wets the bed consistently. Like another poster has said, there's no iconic playoff moment for him besides 2012. Just many lowlights like getting outplayed by Dwight in an elimination game against Portland or 9 turnovers against GS or not even showing up against injured Kawhi Spurs.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#55 » by Gooner » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:52 pm

Harden. Paul steps up sometimes. Harden always chokes.
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Re: Who do you think is the bigger choker out of CP3 and Harden? 

Post#56 » by Chronz » Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:56 pm

f4p wrote:and the only reason you call it a harden "choke" is precisely because smith/brewer went crazy and won the game in a way they could never, ever, ever replicate. if they don't do that, harden probably plays a few 4th quarter minutes, finishes with like 28 points (had 23 after 3 on bad shooting), the rockets lose to a better team and no one ever talks about the series again because it basically played out like you would expect. it's precisely only a choke because of the crazy comeback. basically you are taking something that had nothing to do with harden and retroactively calling it a choke because it happened without harden. again, as if harden was the reason smith/brewer couldn't shooting 71% on 3's. otherwise, it would just be a bad game from harden (bad but hardly some historically awful game) one game after having a triple double in what was also elimination game. you are allowed to have bad games against better teams without it being a "choke."

Nah, when I said it wouldn't happen again I wasn't talking about the benching, I was talking about the hot shooting. The fact that Harden played so apathetic that he had to be benched is precisely the choking Im talking about, it would have been mocked as relentlessly as all his other no shows. Maybe in the grand scheme of things its just another bad game from him but the fact that its become so commonplace is precisely why hes the answer to the thread. CP3 cant be choking harder than the guy who played so bad his team had to bench him in order to win, thats the end point that cant be changed no matter how you wish to frame Hardens performance.


i mean nba history has shown that blowing leads is pretty rare, especially 2-0/3-1.

Thats because its rare for an inferior team to overachieve to that degree.

it basically means you proved you could hang with a team or were even better than they are, and then right as you were there to finish it off, you choked and couldn't handle the pressure of closing them out. it's not like pointing out 2-0/3-1 blown leads is something unique i'm coming up with just for this thread. if a team just manhandles you 4-0, then you probably weren't better than them. and it's not like harden has some history of losing 4-0/4-1 to teams he was way better than, considering i just listed his 3 "upsets" and none of them fit that classification. so if he isn't losing to worse teams and isn't blowing series leads, i'm not sure what the "choke" label is coming from?
Of course your rationale isn't unique, I never said it was, I was explaining just how common of a complaint it is and why its so nonsensical. It doesn't mean/prove any of that. Thats why I gave the Tmac example above, every series is context dependent and not every loss means you choked. Say you lose 4-0 and get clamped down to an inferior or equal team, thats a bigger choke job than a guy willing his clearly overmatched squad to 7 games, even if it came after being up 3-1. Why would I want my star to go ghost rather than rile up the troops and go to war? Why would I want the kind of performance(choke) that wins less games?


i mean they were better options than a lot of people. 29 pts on 80+ TS% in the 4th quarter of an elimination game would be amazing for jordan and pippen. and how dare harden get something from smith and brewer other than unending bricks! he basically has to play the series with one hand tied behind his back because they are sub-replacement level on efficiency and then he sits and they turn into steph and klay. it's like you're punishing harden for his teammates finally making shots. and again, CP3 was on the court and got outscored 40-15 in the 4th in his chance to go to his 1st ever conference finals. i'm not sure how that doesn't fit every bit the label of choker.

Because he was actually on the court when the true choker had to sit down in order to get that kind of performance from those teammates. Thats entirely the point, Harden wasn't even good enough to be on the court. His team just won because they had a coach with the balls to do it.

so he mostly lost to vastly superior teams but you want to call it flameouts.

Yes, because he lost to an inferior team and didn't put up much of a fight even to injured teams that you want to pretend were vastly superior when they were without a key star player.


he had a couple of low efficiency series (production was right in line with regular season in 2013 playoffs) in his early 20's in his first 2 series as a starter. you know who else has had some bad series early in their careers? practically everybody, especially just about anybody outside the all-time top 10. and it was almost a decade ago at this point. must this be held against him forever?

Yes, your career will ALWAYS be held against you, lol thats the entire point of keeping track of his playoff blunders/resume. I cant believe Im having to explain this right now. I dont see where you get your productive claims from feel free to post the numbers and Ill explain the context I see.

you'll notice most of the examples are from early in his career. he admittedly had some pretty big fall-offs back then but was great in the 2015 playoffs, everything but game 6 in 2017 (the one time i think you can truly say anything you want about what he did), and then has been about as good as you can expect since then. again, if i posted his prime (or even just as a starter) playoff numbers and steph's playoff numbers, and the differential from the regular season to the playoffs and told you to pick who was who, you probably wouldn't be able to.

Depends on how deep your analytical dive goes, from all the data I've seen, its not really that hard to differentiate. Are you only showing me PPG and TS% or something?

didn't DameTime have one of the most horrendous first round series ever just a few years later? almost as if sometimes players have bad series? didn't Jimmy Butler come off a finals run and then have maybe an even more horrendous series than the one Dame had? only harden seems to never have any of his bad moments forgotten. and any impressive results and stats are just considered accidents or credited to other people. his overall play in the 2015 playoffs was great and yet literally the only thing people talk about is game 6 against the clippers or "12 turnovers, lol". if none of your good games count (28/11/9, 38/10/9, 45/9/5 just in the first 4 games of the WCF), then of course you will look bad.

I reference DameTime in response to the hollywood quip, but if we want to put Harden in that company then yes, I would agree Harden is a better performer throughout his career than Dame but its debatable who has choked more throughout. Again, better players can choke and still be better players. Everyone has their bad moments, we track every moment and decide in the aggregate.

and the series was 2-2 after RWB got hurt, about what you would expect for a 9+ SRS team that lost it's 2nd best player against an 8th seed. were you expecting the rockets to storm to a 4-2 series victory with 23 year old harden flanked by jeremy lin, chandler parsons, and omer asik?

Kind of hard to win 4-2 when you're down 3-0 lol, but I know what you mean and no, Im not expecting Harden to win, I'm expecting him to do his part. Its not a massive ding but it isn't something we can just ignore, again, we keep track of every performance in every context. I understand its harder for Harden in this spot, thats not in question.

why does harden have to elevate his play to not be a choker?

Elevate, sustain or not crater. These are all acceptable as opposed to outright ghosting. Whichever you attain will determine if you're a choker or a riser. Its entirely possible for a choker to be a better playoff performer than a playoff riser if thats all you're trying to say.

relatively few players ever have done that. if james harden's playoff numbers were as good as his regular season numbers, we'd almost be talking about him with lebron and putting him in top 10 all-time discussions. it's like somehow "james harden isn't as good as in the regular season" is just a license to downplay him all you want, even if his absolute play in the playoffs is still high. it's like you are basically punishing him for being ridiculously good in the regular season. a moderately athletic 6'5 shooting guard putting up otherworldly regular season numbers but then not sustaining them in the playoffs makes sense when everything he does, every trick he has can be focused on and his athleticism and physical limitations catch up to him (not unlike what happens to someone like curry, who is similarly hard to gameplan for in a regular season setting but can be limited with physical play and a strict focus on his style in a 7 game series).

Agreed, thats why comparisons are about nit picking when you're dealing with All-Time greats. Harden isn't a bad playoff performer just because he chokes, hes had moments where he both chokes and plays worse than even basic all stars tho.

i'm sure CP3 has quite a few bad losses to injuries. i'm not claiming otherwise. in fact, i've defended CP3 plenty over the years. but he is lapping the field on blown series leads and losses as a favorite. it's not close. they can't all be injuries. i mean he's probably somewhat a victim of his own regular season success like harden, where they arguably make their teams have better records than you would expect (especially harden with the volume he can take on), and then we expect them to hold up against teams that may have slacked off in the regular season. except harden has largely done that, basically only losing as an underdog or very slight favorite.

CP3 is always injured, thats why alot of players have an argument over him legacy wise. Feel free to name the series, I'll name the injuries, to either himself and/or teammates.

again, how did harden choke? their series stats are pretty much equal. 25/8/6 vs 21/10/4, 20.4 game score for CP3 to 19.0 for harden. it's just a choke if harden doesn't play well in a certain game? is every bad game a choke now? the same game where CP3 blew like a 19 point lead? they kind of seem to equal out.

Basically, because he was benched. You see, with players like Harden, they can post some numbers while not operating well enough for the team, this lack of energy is what McHale saw when he benched Harden. Harden's intangibles are so poor, that a lack of productive value is significant, especially if we're talking about GameScore.
GameScore, like PER, favors high usage players to a higher degree so the fact that Harden was abit lower after a season in which he posted superior RS metrics is quite telling. And again, the additional context behind their cumulative playoff run and injuries sustained is also relevant. I wont rehash that here

i wasn't comparing harden to CP3, just harden to any other generic star. why is it when harden wins as many games against the durant warriors as the rest of the league combined, he's a huge playoff choker? he averaged like 32/7/6 in those 2 series as well. are the 2019 rockets with a clearly injured/past-his-prime CP3 really so absurdly talented that they should put up a way better fight than the 2017 cavs? is the #6 defense 2018 houston rockets what solves all the problems for the rockets, like they were the 2004 pistons? it's what i mean by, even when harden does something good like play well and almost take down an impossibly talented team, he still doesn't get credit for it from basically anybody. only his bad games/series count.

Yes, the 1 run that makes this debatable, I dont think anyone is taking that away from Harden. Almost winning against a superior team whilst showing up big is exactly the kind of **** we want to see from overmatched superstars. But choking isn't about winning, its about how you lose. That single run eliminates the talk of choking for sure, but do that for every year and you will see a guy who has failed to show up in his first round flameouts even losing to an inferior team while posting truly pedestrian numbers(without the defense to alleviate the dropoff). CP3 is always injured whereas Harden usually chokes.

IDK which is worse

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