People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[mysticOscar]

There's no point convincing them. They are in the minority. Majority of casuals and big nba fans have MJ as GOAT in modern era.

I get feeling a lot of the nay sayers are just doing it to go against the grain.

Just like people who refuse to acknowledge Allen Iverson as a top three player in 2001 are blatant haters and contrarians. Because the majority knows how awesome Iverson was.

The more Jordan/Kobe fans point to this type of logic, the more it exposes the superficiality of their stance.

Not sure how your Iverson one year sample is relevant.

I don't want to get to a long drawn on back and forth about MJ vs LeBron or whoever in the modern era since that horse is already bolted.

In an subjective topic such as GOAT...you are entitled to your opinion.

At the end of the day, what matters is the majority s opinion in a somewhat subjective topic as this.

But ppl can always change the criteria and say that longevity matters and that could bump up LeBron or Jabbar up there rank. I don't care.

They're entitled. But what's not debatable is majority thinks that MJ is GOAT. That's only thing that is objective here and can be proven by facts.

[Owly]

There's no point convincing them. They are in the minority. Majority of casuals and big nba fans have MJ as GOAT in modern era.

I get feeling a lot of the nay sayers are just doing it to go against the grain.

Just like people who refuse to acknowledge Allen Iverson as a top three player in 2001 are blatant haters and contrarians. Because the majority knows how awesome Iverson was.

The more Jordan/Kobe fans point to this type of logic, the more it exposes the superficiality of their stance.

Not sure how your Iverson one year sample is relevant.

I don't want to get to a long drawn on back and forth about MJ vs LeBron or whoever in the modern era since that horse is already bolted.

In an subjective topic such as GOAT...you are entitled to your opinion.

At the end of the day, what matters is the majority s opinion in a somewhat subjective topic as this.

But ppl can always change the criteria and say that longevity matters and that could bump up LeBron or Jabbar up there rank. I don't care.

They're entitled. But what's not debatable is majority thinks that MJ is GOAT. That's only thing that is objective here and can be proven by facts.

Whilst you rightly outline (in a manner framing it favorably to your choice) that criteria can differ, and there is not a perfectly objective measure ...

I would posit that ...

1) Preface: there is some objective level of play and thus some truth. LeBron James is a better player than Acie Earl. More dominant in their own eras. Would be better in any era of a game recognizably basketball. This doesn't mean comparing isn't really difficult, imperfect, with different viable crieria, with difficulties across eras etc.

2) The truth matters. We could get into philosophy and none of it matters, but as far as anything matters to imply that regarding GoaT implying (majoritarian) popular opinion is the thing that matters ... why? Why would a 5-year-olds view count as much as someone seriously studying the question?

[AEnigma]

what's not debatable is majority thinks that MJ is GOAT. That's only thing that is objective here and can be proven by facts.

Please point to where that was debated.

The only reason to bring it up is if you think a majoritarian perspective qualifies as evidence or an argument in itself, when it actuality it is as irrelevant as your average pub fan thinking 2001 Allen Iverson was almost as good as Shaq.

[tsherkin]

But DWade and Chris Bosh also had to limit their games...

Seems like a pattern.

I've never understood how people fail to understand this situation.

Lebron was better than Wade or Bosh ever were, so his primacy was guaranteed. There are only so many shots, so much time on the clock, only so many opportunities for isos. You don't just linearly add scoring average when you combine stars. It was a foregone conclusion that Wade wasn't going to be chasing a scoring title and that Bosh wasn't going to be a 20+ ppg player. Bosh in Toronto was a slow isolation player who spent a lot of time jab-stepping. He wasn't going to fill that role in Miami. Anyone with eyes knew that. Lebron haters love to look at how other stars didn't maintain their scoring average when they joined him, but what on Earth did they think was going to happen? Same deal with Kevin Love.

It's nonsense, and always has been, to grief Lebron for other star players not matching their scoring output. No one said boo when Pierce went from 25 ppg to 19 ppg alongside Garnett in 2008. And Ray Allen from 26 to 16 (or if you like, 34 to 25.6 PTS100 for Ray and 35 to 29 for Pierce). That wouldn't have served the narrative. When you put three volume scores on the same team, they can each use only so many possessions. It was always a horrifically bad, disingenuous argument.

[Stalwart]

But DWade and Chris Bosh also had to limit their games...

Seems like a pattern.

I've never understood how people fail to understand this situation.

Lebron was better than Wade or Bosh ever were, so his primacy was guaranteed. There are only so many shots, so much time on the clock, only so many opportunities for isos. You don't just linearly add scoring average when you combine stars. It was a foregone conclusion that Wade wasn't going to be chasing a scoring title and that Bosh wasn't going to be a 20+ ppg player. Bosh in Toronto was a slow isolation player who spent a lot of time jab-stepping. He wasn't going to fill that role in Miami. Anyone with eyes knew that. Lebron haters love to look at how other stars didn't maintain their scoring average when they joined him, but what on Earth did they think was going to happen? Same deal with Kevin Love.

It's nonsense, and always has been, to grief Lebron for other star players not matching their scoring output. No one said boo when Pierce went from 25 ppg to 19 ppg alongside Garnett in 2008. And Ray Allen from 26 to 16 (or if you like, 34 to 25.6 PTS100 for Ray and 35 to 29 for Pierce). That wouldn't have served the narrative. When you put three volume scores on the same team, they can each use only so many possessions. It was always a horrifically bad, disingenuous argument.

Well good thing Im not talking about scoring. Im talking about impact and teammate empowerment. When I say DWade and Chris Bosh had to limit their games Im not talking about limiting their scoring. Thats just a byproduct. Im not talking about them having to change their games, move away from their strengths, and develop new skills. Bosh had to turn himself into a spot up shooter. Wade had to pick and choose his opportunities to contribute. All so Lebron can max out his own impact.

How come Lebron can't better adjust his game to others while also maintaining his own impact? Why can't he empower his teammates to be contributors, creators, and decision makers? Why can't he play in a way that encorporates the strengths of his co-stars rather than oppress them? Wouldn't that lead to a more diverse and resilient offense and overall team? Wouldn't that help the team perform better when Lebron's not on the floor? And wouldn't that ultimately lead to more NBA championships?

Again, Pau didn't have to limit his game playing with Kobe. Kobe, due to his diverse skillset and portability as a player, could play off of Pau's stregths as a post player. Due to his elite mid range game and ability to play off ball Pau could utilize his own strengths as a scorer and playmaker. Odom as well. Role players were empowered. That made the Lakers a more resilient offensive team. A stronger team that wasn't 100% reliant on Kobe. Same thing with Jordan and Pippen. Same thing with Magic and Bird and their co stars. Curry and Durant.

Being a one man show is not the best way to play basketball. Although Lebron is probably the best one man show it still leads to an overall lower ceiling for your team.

Why can't you guys understand this?

[AEnigma]

But DWade and Chris Bosh also had to limit their games...

Seems like a pattern.

I've never understood how people fail to understand this situation.

Lebron was better than Wade or Bosh ever were, so his primacy was guaranteed. There are only so many shots, so much time on the clock, only so many opportunities for isos. You don't just linearly add scoring average when you combine stars. It was a foregone conclusion that Wade wasn't going to be chasing a scoring title and that Bosh wasn't going to be a 20+ ppg player. Bosh in Toronto was a slow isolation player who spent a lot of time jab-stepping. He wasn't going to fill that role in Miami. Anyone with eyes knew that. Lebron haters love to look at how other stars didn't maintain their scoring average when they joined him, but what on Earth did they think was going to happen? Same deal with Kevin Love.

It's nonsense, and always has been, to grief Lebron for other star players not matching their scoring output. No one said boo when Pierce went from 25 ppg to 19 ppg alongside Garnett in 2008. And Ray Allen from 26 to 16 (or if you like, 34 to 25.6 PTS100 for Ray and 35 to 29 for Pierce). That wouldn't have served the narrative. When you put three volume scores on the same team, they can each use only so many possessions. It was always a horrifically bad, disingenuous argument.

Well good thing Im not talking about scoring. Im talking about impact and teammate empowerment. When I say DWade and Chris Bosh had to limit their games Im not talking about limiting their scoring. Thats just a byproduct. Im not talking about them having to change their games, move away from their strengths, and develop new skills. Bosh had to turn himself into a spot up shooter. Wade had to pick and choose his opportunities to contribute. All so Lebron can max out his own impact.

Please clarify what you mean about this outside of scoring. You threw a bunch of buzzwords in there but no actual analysis of how they were negatively impacted outside of their scoring.

How come Lebron can't better adjust his game to others while also maintaining his own impact?

Curious how you feel Jordan would adjust his obsession over winning the scoring title next to Wade and Bosh or Kyrie and Love.

Why can't he empower his teammates to be contributors

He does.

creators, and decision makers?

Because unlike Jordan he is top five ever at both. But even then, the idea that Lebron never plays offball to accommodate teammates is a fabrication.

Why can't he play in a way that encorporates the strengths of his co-stars rather than oppress them? Wouldn't that lead to a more diverse and resilient offense and overall team? Wouldn't that help the team perform better when Lebron's not on the floor? And wouldn't that ultimately lead to more NBA championships?

Because unlike Jordan he has not had perfectly complementary teams, crazy how that goes.

Again, Pau didn't have to limit his game playing with Kobe. Kobe, due to his diverse skillset and portability as a player, could play off of Pau's stregths as a post player. Due to his elite mid range game and ability to play off ball Pau could utilize his own strengths as a scorer and playmaker. Odom as well.

Do you feel this describes Bosh or Love well?

The closest description to this offball skillset is Davis… we saw how badly that failed, right.

Role players were empowered.

?????? Lebron James, famously bad for roleplayers.

That made the Lakers a more resilient offensive team. A stronger team that wasn't 100% reliant on Kobe.

Oh cool back to saying all of Lebron’s incredibly eite teammates just became so reliant on him that they could not possibly play well without him.

Same thing with Jordan and Pippen.

Jordan and Pippen were about as complementary as Kyrie and Lebron or Davis and Lebron, except in this situation Pippen is acting more in Lebron’s role.

Same thing with Magic

Yes portability god Magic Johnson.

and Bird and their co stars. Curry

Neither Jordan nor Lebron are as portable as Bird or Curry.

That said — have you seen how Golden State plays without Curry?

Being a one man show is not the best way to play basketball. Although Lebron is probably the best one man show it still leads to an overall lower ceiling for your team.

Why can't you guys understand this?

We can, but you fail to understand that not all “two-man shows” or “three-man shows” are identical.

[penbeast0]

Do you realize that the two years where Jordan went to play baseball were Pippen's two best years in terms of scoring, rebounding, and steals . . . pretty much his whole game except for assists? Maybe Jordan was holding him back with Jordan's great all around game.

[tsherkin]

Well good thing Im not talking about scoring. Im talking about impact and teammate empowerment. When I say DWade and Chris Bosh had to limit their games Im not talking about limiting their scoring. Thats just a byproduct. Im not talking about them having to change their games, move away from their strengths, and develop new skills. Bosh had to turn himself into a spot up shooter. Wade had to pick and choose his opportunities to contribute. All so Lebron can max out his own impact.

But that's nothing more than ridiculous blather. Bosh contributed as an excellent defender inside of Miami's scheme to a degree he never showed in Toronto, so that obviously wasn't an issue. He was never a particularly good playmaker, so neither was that. So one could only possibly BE talking about scoring in his case, unless you're just making up words in an attempt to distract from how inaccurate was your assessment. Same same with Wade. He was a primary volume scorer. The team didn't lose any playmaking of consequence when he got off-ball a little more because Lebron is a notably superior playmaker. He scored less because he shot less and played fewer minutes, which falls under the previous discussion.

How come Lebron can't better adjust his game to others while also maintaining his own impact? Why can't he empower his teammates to be contributors, creators, and decision makers? Why can't he play in a way that encorporates the strengths of his co-stars rather than oppress them? Wouldn't that lead to a more diverse and resilient offense and overall team? Wouldn't that help the team perform better when Lebron's not on the floor? And wouldn't that ultimately lead to more NBA championships?

This is non-sensical blather. He's better at the things he maintained in volume, so of course it made sense for him to keep doing what he was doing. And he DID adjust, working more in the post in order to open up more opportunities for Wade and Bosh. But it was never going to be statistically the same. And Wade wasn't a particularly good shooter, which limited the different ways in which Lebron COULD enable him, for one aspect of things.

Again, Pau didn't have to limit his game playing with Kobe. Kobe, due to his diverse skillset and portability as a player, could play off of Pau's stregths as a post player.

No, this is just a ridiculous remark. They occupied different spots on the floor and utilized totally different styles of play, so this isn't a sensible criticism at all. This is drivel. Non-sensical drivel.

Why can't you guys understand this?

Because it's wrong. Flatly incorrect.

[Jaivl]

I'd go as far as to say that Bosh clearly peaked in Miami impact-wise. Same with Davis and Irving, of course.

[tsherkin]

I'd go as far as to say that Bosh clearly peaked in Miami impact-wise. Same with Davis and Irving, of course.

Bosh surprised everyone with his defensive utility, then also added a 3 and slotted in nicely without competing for isolations. He did a great job in Miami, and was really only a marginal focal offensive player in Toronto despite sexy numbers. Like, we were lucky to have him, but he was obviously far more useful in the role he filled for the Heat.

[falcolombardi]

I'd go as far as to say that Bosh clearly peaked in Miami impact-wise. Same with Davis and Irving, of course.

But their ppg number was lower? How can they have been better?

[Stalwart]

Do you realize that the two years where Jordan went to play baseball were Pippen's two best years in terms of scoring, rebounding, and steals . . . pretty much his whole game except for assists? Maybe Jordan was holding him back with Jordan's great all around game.

Im talking about impact, player empowerment, and utilizing the strengths if your teammates. Scottie didn't take a hit on any of these things when playing next to Jordan. He was still able to play to his strengths and offer consistently elite impact next to Jordan not far off from his impact without Jordan. Sure his raw numbers see a slight downtick but thats to be expected.

[tsherkin]

Im talking about impact, player empowerment, and utilizing the strengths if your teammates. Scottie didn't take a hit on any of these things when playing next to Jordan. He was still able to play to his strengths and offer consistently elite impact next to Jordan not far off from his impact without Jordan. Sure his raw numbers see a slight downtick but thats to be expected.

You're talking about nothing because your point has no substance. You understand that all of Wade, Bosh and Love primarily made their impact on the game with volume scoring, which neuters any semblance of relevance to your point. Scottie took a very obvious hit to what he was doing next to Jordan, but he was always letting MJ go big to begin with and didn't have the J or FT shooting ability to be an elite scorer. Pippen's ability to produce impact was felt defensively, which has nothing to do with offense, so there was no synergy lost. Much like Bosh was able to do so with the alleviated offensive burden freeing up a pile of his energy.

Your argument is disingenuous. Pippen never created impact through volume scoring, and he was never a noteworthy volume scorer to begin with. He was a good offensive player inside the triangle and he could score competently, but he certainly wasn't an elite floor-raising offensive player, so we never saw a major change. This wasn't the case with someone like Wade... who still actually scored 25.5 ppg the first season he played with Lebron. In the following two seasons, he was rather notably injured, which you have conveniently not mentioned, also. He also set what was, at the time, a career-high in 2FG% in 2011. He'd do it against in 2013 and 2014, something ELSE you've neglected to mention, because why address points which undercut your thought, right? In 2013 and 2014, Bosh also enjoyed the highest percentage of assisted FGs in his entire career. 2011-2014, so did Wade.

Time and again, man, your point falls apart under literally all of the evidence except for "hurr, PPG dropped." And then you back up onto terms like "player empowerment," which is a meaningless phrase once we start discussing on-court efficacy in any kind of detail.

Nothing you're saying is accurate, at all. Everything you're saying is wrong.

[Stalwart]

But that's nothing more than ridiculous blather. Bosh contributed as an excellent defender inside of Miami's scheme to a degree he never showed in Toronto, so that obviously wasn't an issue. He was never a particularly good playmaker, so neither was that. So one could only possibly BE talking about scoring in his case, unless you're just making up words in an attempt to distract from how inaccurate was your assessment. Same same with Wade. He was a primary volume scorer. The team didn't lose any playmaking of consequence when he got off-ball a little more because Lebron is a notably superior playmaker. He scored less because he shot less and played fewer minutes, which falls under the previous discussion.

In a recent interview, the 37-YO retired player briefly explained it and said, “I didn’t get used to it until we probably won the first championship. It was one of those things where I constantly had to reinvent myself. I don’t think I ever all the way got used to it because I had to morph…”

“We know Bron or D might be out, and I have to up my scoring. Some nights I would just set screens and be in the big guy role down the paint and play defense. Someday it just be, we need to guard the biggest guy and guard fifty screen and rolls. That was one of the fascinating things I found from being with that team. But, I’d say just getting used to being uncomfortable took… a season and a half to fit into my rolling in. Even after that I had to get used to things changing.”

So yeah. It's like I said. Chris Bosh had to completely 'reinvent' and 'morph' his game to fit in next to Lebron. He didn't have to do it just once but over and over again. Some nights he'd be asked to score and other nights he'd just be setting a bunch of screens. A guy who was capable of carrying a playoff level offense was never given a consistent role in Lebron's offense. He was asked to play in different areas of the floor than where he truly excels at.

Keep in mind I'm not the one saying this. Chris Bosh is saying this. He himself has emphatically refuted your false claims. Case closed. Put to bed. Finished. Finito. Checkmate. Never to be heard from again.

This is non-sensical blather. He's better at the things he maintained in volume, so of course it made sense for him to keep doing what he was doing. And he DID adjust, working more in the post in order to open up more opportunities for Wade and Bosh. But it was never going to be statistically the same. And Wade wasn't a particularly good shooter, which limited the different ways in which Lebron COULD enable him, for one aspect of things.

Sure, the Lebron one-man approach might be the best go to approach on average from play to play. But its not going to get you there by itself. He still needs his teammates to help. He still needs his team to produce consistently and reliably when he goes to the bench or just otherwise needs some more help. But how can they do that when they are never allowed to get comfortable and have to keep morphing and reinventing themselves?

That's why its important to run a real offensive system that encorporates and utilizes the strengths of the whole team. That leads to a more consistent, reliable, and dynamic overall offense that can carry you over the hump.

[tsherkin]

So yeah. It's like I said. Chris Bosh had to completely 'reinvent' and 'morph' his game to fit in next to Lebron. He didn't have to do it just once but over and over again. Some nights he'd be asked to score and other nights he'd just be setting a bunch of screens. A guy who was capable of carrying a playoff level offense was never given a consistent role in Lebron's offense. He was asked to play in different areas of the floor than where he truly excels at.

He was asked to play a role which made sense based on the other talent on the roster. Why do you make this sound like a profound thing? It was alarmingly obvious that both Lebron and Wade were better-suited to carrying the offense than Bosh, particularly come the playoffs.

Keep in mind I'm not the one saying this. Chris Bosh is saying this. He himself has emphatically refuted your false claims. Case closed. Put to bed. Finished. Finito. Checkmate. Never to be heard from again.

He refuted nothing. he said he had to adapt. No one has contended that this was not the case. Try again.

Sure, the Lebron one-man approach might be the best go to approach on average from play to play.

What is this "one-man" business you keep peddling? Wade handled the ball plenty. Lebron got off-ball in the post, and shooting threes. He shot the highest percentage of assisted threes in his entire career while he was with Wade and Bosh. Why don't you pay attention to what actually happened instead of continuously attempting to sell a thoroughly-debunked narrative?

That's why its important to run a real offensive system that encorporates and utilizes the strengths of the whole team. That leads to a more consistent, reliable, and dynamic overall offense that can carry you over the hump.

They were trying to sort out how to make it work. Bosh was the least-skilled offensive player of their big 3 and Wade was no catch-and-shoot player, so they had to adapt on the fly and see what worked. They did an excellent job of it. This does not in any way aid your point...

[OhayoKD]

There's no point convincing them. They are in the minority. Majority of casuals and big nba fans have MJ as GOAT in modern era.

I get feeling a lot of the nay sayers are just doing it to go against the grain.

Just like people who refuse to acknowledge Allen Iverson as a top three player in 2001 are blatant haters and contrarians. Because the majority knows how awesome Iverson was.

The more Jordan/Kobe fans point to this type of logic, the more it exposes the superficiality of their stance.

Not sure how your Iverson one year sample is relevant.

I don't want to get to a long drawn on back and forth about MJ vs LeBron or whoever in the modern era since that horse is already bolted.

In an subjective topic such as GOAT...you are entitled to your opinion.

At the end of the day, what matters is the majority s opinion in a somewhat subjective topic as this.

But ppl can always change the criteria and say that longevity matters and that could bump up LeBron or Jabbar up there rank. I don't care.

They're entitled. But what's not debatable is majority thinks that MJ is GOAT. That's only thing that is objective here and can be proven by facts.

how imapctful a player is during a set time frame, or in certain settings(or in all the settings) and individual value towards the pursuit of championships are objective questions in nature. Uncertainity doesn't really change that.


As this thread has brought to bare, the evidence seems to strongly favor lebron in the "good at making teams win" area with virutally any sort of framing.

if you think being better at winning is less relevant to determining player quality or greatness than popular opinion, go ahead. But we'd have to agree to disagree.

[Stalwart]

He was asked to play a role which made sense based on the other talent on the roster. Why do you make this sound like a profound thing? It was alarmingly obvious that both Lebron and Wade were better-suited to carrying the offense than Bosh, particularly come the playoffs.

Maybe you didn't read what Chris Bosh actually said so let me post it again:

"But, I’d say just getting used to being uncomfortable took… a season and a half to fit into my rolling in. Even after that I had to get used to things changing.”

"It was one of those things where I constantly had to reinvent myself."

He wasn't asked to play a role that best suited the other talent. He was asked to constantly change the role he played. And he was asked to do that in order to specifically suit Lebron James. Instead of playing to and utilizing his strengths as a basketball player he was asked to constantly reinvent himself. He had to morph. He had to be uncomfortable.

Is it any wonder why a player like Chris Bosh and Kevin Love eventually lost the ability to produce consistently and reliably on the offensive end? And by "offensive end" Im not referring to raw PPG. Im talking about being able to produce points, rebounds, and finish plays on a consistent and reliable basis independent of Lebron. Like when he goes to the bench or gets leg cramps.

Wade also had to adapt to Lebron in order to make him feel comfortable:

“Taking a step back to ‘Bron, that was the toughest part for me at the time,” Wade told Michael Lee of The Athletic. “Obviously, before my injuries, I was a bad boy. It was my city, my team. (If) we win the Finals that year (in 2011), I’m arguably Finals MVP. I didn’t need to… but we got two out of the next three championships and I’d still do it all over again.”

“I just felt, sitting back, watching the way he played and playing against him for so long, he wasn’t as comfortable as he needed to be,” Wade continued. “And it was too much of him looking over his shoulder or looking at me. He wasn’t just playing. It wasn’t clear mind. He was always thinking about me or looking for me and I just wanted him to be play and allow him to be great.”

The only reason Wade had to take a step back was because Lebron was uncomfortable and flamed out in the 2011 Finals. Why does everyone have to change, adapt, and reinvent themselves when playing next to Lebron? Players don't have to do that when they play next to Kobe. Or Jordan. Or Wade. Or Steph. Or KD.

Again, when it comes to Lebron James its high floor, low ceiling(relatively speaking). The reason his teams have a low ceiling is because his all star teammates have to adjust, change, and reinvent themselves. Jordan has a lower floor than Lebron James but he has a much higher ceiling due to his diverse skillset, adaptability, and portability as a player. And its that higher ceiling that brings you championships.

[OhayoKD]

But DWade and Chris Bosh also had to limit their games...

Seems like a pattern.

I've never understood how people fail to understand this situation.

Lebron was better than Wade or Bosh ever were, so his primacy was guaranteed. There are only so many shots, so much time on the clock, only so many opportunities for isos. You don't just linearly add scoring average when you combine stars. It was a foregone conclusion that Wade wasn't going to be chasing a scoring title and that Bosh wasn't going to be a 20+ ppg player. Bosh in Toronto was a slow isolation player who spent a lot of time jab-stepping. He wasn't going to fill that role in Miami. Anyone with eyes knew that. Lebron haters love to look at how other stars didn't maintain their scoring average when they joined him, but what on Earth did they think was going to happen? Same deal with Kevin Love.

It's nonsense, and always has been, to grief Lebron for other star players not matching their scoring output. No one said boo when Pierce went from 25 ppg to 19 ppg alongside Garnett in 2008. And Ray Allen from 26 to 16 (or if you like, 34 to 25.6 PTS100 for Ray and 35 to 29 for Pierce). That wouldn't have served the narrative. When you put three volume scores on the same team, they can each use only so many possessions. It was always a horrifically bad, disingenuous argument.

Well good thing Im not talking about scoring. Im talking about impact and teammate empowerment. When I say DWade and Chris Bosh had to limit their games Im not talking about limiting their scoring. Thats just a byproduct. Im not talking about them having to change their games, move away from their strengths, and develop new skills. Bosh had to turn himself into a spot up shooter. Wade had to pick and choose his opportunities to contribute. All so Lebron can max out his own impact.

How come Lebron can't better adjust his game to others while also maintaining his own impact?

Am waiting for the "lebron made love suck" crowd(of 2) to address this:

On top of that, if we avoid m-regularization and go from raw signals, jordan looks signifcantly worse, something that seems to hold for MJ whenever he's compared to better or much better paint protectors(hakeem, duncan, and Kareem all compare favorably and KG compares favorably in the regular season).
m-regularization can lead to a misdistribution of value. You might have noticed that in plus-minus stats, everything plateus's around 25 wins? That's artifical.

Stretches of outlier impact tend to get misdistributed to role players(especially when they're putting up nice box-scores). Additionally, the process of box-regression can lead to non-box impact being lost(very relevant when dealing with primary paint protectors). This is why it's important to keep track of raw signals.

If kevin love was such an impactful player, why couldn't he and kyrie keep the lineup above a 30 win pace when lebron wasn't there?

If kevin love was such an impactful player, why were the cavs basically unaffected by his injury in the 15 playoffs? APM would tell you it's because tristan thompson and delladova were really good defensively, and yet...

the cavs defense collapses to one of the worst in the league in games where Lebron didn't play

How were the cavs so bad if love and kyrie were really good attackers and md+tt was a good defense?


APM is cool, but it needs to be checked against what actually happens. And what actually happened flatly contradicts your assessment of Love.

Am also awaiting them to explain lebron's nearly unrivalled track record without good relative to era spacing(12,15, 20) and how wade-bosh-lebron were a +13 when they were in the lineup for lebron's first title(heat played 40 win ball without lebron those years).

[Stalwart]

I've never understood how people fail to understand this situation.

Lebron was better than Wade or Bosh ever were, so his primacy was guaranteed. There are only so many shots, so much time on the clock, only so many opportunities for isos. You don't just linearly add scoring average when you combine stars. It was a foregone conclusion that Wade wasn't going to be chasing a scoring title and that Bosh wasn't going to be a 20+ ppg player. Bosh in Toronto was a slow isolation player who spent a lot of time jab-stepping. He wasn't going to fill that role in Miami. Anyone with eyes knew that. Lebron haters love to look at how other stars didn't maintain their scoring average when they joined him, but what on Earth did they think was going to happen? Same deal with Kevin Love.

It's nonsense, and always has been, to grief Lebron for other star players not matching their scoring output. No one said boo when Pierce went from 25 ppg to 19 ppg alongside Garnett in 2008. And Ray Allen from 26 to 16 (or if you like, 34 to 25.6 PTS100 for Ray and 35 to 29 for Pierce). That wouldn't have served the narrative. When you put three volume scores on the same team, they can each use only so many possessions. It was always a horrifically bad, disingenuous argument.

Well good thing Im not talking about scoring. Im talking about impact and teammate empowerment. When I say DWade and Chris Bosh had to limit their games Im not talking about limiting their scoring. Thats just a byproduct. Im not talking about them having to change their games, move away from their strengths, and develop new skills. Bosh had to turn himself into a spot up shooter. Wade had to pick and choose his opportunities to contribute. All so Lebron can max out his own impact.

How come Lebron can't better adjust his game to others while also maintaining his own impact?

Am waiting for the "lebron made love suck" crowd(of 2) to address this:

On top of that, if we avoid m-regularization and go from raw signals, jordan looks signifcantly worse, something that seems to hold for MJ whenever he's compared to better or much better paint protectors(hakeem, duncan, and Kareem all compare favorably and KG compares favorably in the regular season).
m-regularization can lead to a misdistribution of value. You might have noticed that in plus-minus stats, everything plateus's around 25 wins? That's artifical.

Stretches of outlier impact tend to get misdistributed to role players(especially when they're putting up nice box-scores). Additionally, the process of box-regression can lead to non-box impact being lost(very relevant when dealing with primary paint protectors). This is why it's important to keep track of raw signals.

If kevin love was such an impactful player, why couldn't he and kyrie keep the lineup above a 30 win pace when lebron wasn't there?

If kevin love was such an impactful player, why were the cavs basically unaffected by his injury in the 15 playoffs? APM would tell you it's because tristan thompson and delladova were really good defensively, and yet...

the cavs defense collapses to one of the worst in the league in games where Lebron didn't play

How were the cavs so bad if love and kyrie were really good attackers and md+tt was a good defense?


APM is cool, but it needs to be checked against what actually happens. And what actually happened flatly contradicts your assessment of Love.

Am also awaiting them to explain lebron's nearly unrivalled track record without good relative to era spacing(12,15, 20) and how wade-bosh-lebron were a +13 when they were in the lineup for lebron's first title(heat played 40 win ball without lebron those years).

Address my points first. I keep repeating them and nobody actually addresses them.

[OhayoKD]

Well good thing Im not talking about scoring. Im talking about impact and teammate empowerment. When I say DWade and Chris Bosh had to limit their games Im not talking about limiting their scoring. Thats just a byproduct. Im not talking about them having to change their games, move away from their strengths, and develop new skills. Bosh had to turn himself into a spot up shooter. Wade had to pick and choose his opportunities to contribute. All so Lebron can max out his own impact.

How come Lebron can't better adjust his game to others while also maintaining his own impact?

Am waiting for the "lebron made love suck" crowd(of 2) to address this:

On top of that, if we avoid m-regularization and go from raw signals, jordan looks signifcantly worse, something that seems to hold for MJ whenever he's compared to better or much better paint protectors(hakeem, duncan, and Kareem all compare favorably and KG compares favorably in the regular season).
m-regularization can lead to a misdistribution of value. You might have noticed that in plus-minus stats, everything plateus's around 25 wins? That's artifical.

Stretches of outlier impact tend to get misdistributed to role players(especially when they're putting up nice box-scores). Additionally, the process of box-regression can lead to non-box impact being lost(very relevant when dealing with primary paint protectors). This is why it's important to keep track of raw signals.

If kevin love was such an impactful player, why couldn't he and kyrie keep the lineup above a 30 win pace when lebron wasn't there?

If kevin love was such an impactful player, why were the cavs basically unaffected by his injury in the 15 playoffs? APM would tell you it's because tristan thompson and delladova were really good defensively, and yet...

the cavs defense collapses to one of the worst in the league in games where Lebron didn't play

How were the cavs so bad if love and kyrie were really good attackers and md+tt was a good defense?


APM is cool, but it needs to be checked against what actually happens. And what actually happened flatly contradicts your assessment of Love.

Am also awaiting them to explain lebron's nearly unrivalled track record without good relative to era spacing(12,15, 20) and how wade-bosh-lebron were a +13 when they were in the lineup for lebron's first title(heat played 40 win ball without lebron those years).

Address my points first.

I did:
If kevin love was such an impactful player, why couldn't he and kyrie keep the lineup above a 30 win pace when lebron wasn't there?

If kevin love was such an impactful player, why were the cavs basically unaffected by his injury in the 15 playoffs? APM would tell you it's because tristan thompson and delladova were really good defensively, and yet...