Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 - 1989-90 Patrick Ewing

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Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 - 1989-90 Patrick Ewing 

Post#1 » by LA Bird » Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:43 pm

RealGM Greatest Peaks List (2022)
1. 1990-91 Michael Jordan
2. 2012-13 LeBron James
3. 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal
4. 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. 1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain
6. 2002-03 Tim Duncan
7. 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
8. 1963-64 Bill Russell
9. 1985-86 Larry Bird
10. 1986-87 Magic Johnson
11. 2016-17 Stephen Curry
12. 2003-04 Kevin Garnett
13. 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo
14. 1963-64 Oscar Robertson
15. 1965-66 Jerry West
16. 2021-22 Nikola Jokic
17. 1976-77 Bill Walton
18. 2005-06 Dwyane Wade
19. 2007-08 Kobe Bryant
20. 1993-94 David Robinson
21. 2016-17 Kawhi Leonard
22. 1975-76 Julius Erving
23. 2010-11 Dirk Nowitzki
24. 2016-17 Kevin Durant
25. 1982-83 Moses Malone
26. 2019-20 Anthony Davis
27. 2006-07 Steve Nash
28. 2014-15 Chris Paul
29. 2018-19 James Harden
30. 1949-50 George Mikan
31. 1989-90 Charles Barkley
32. 1997-98 Karl Malone
33. 1989-90 Patrick Ewing

Spoiler:
Please vote for your 3 highest player peaks and at least one line of reasoning for each of them.

Vote example 1
1. 1991 Jordan: Explanation
2. 2013 LeBron: Explanation
3. 2000 Shaq: Explanation

In addition, you can also list other peak season candidates from those three players. This extra step is entirely optional

Vote example 2
1. 1991 Jordan: Explanation
(1990 Jordan)
2. 2013 LeBron: Explanation
(2012 LeBron)
(2009 LeBron)
3. 2000 Shaq: Explanation

You can visit the project thread for further information on why this makes a difference and how the votes will be counted at the end of the round.

Voting for this round will close on Wednesday September 28, 9am ET.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#2 » by tsherkin » Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:40 pm

Didn't get to this in time in the last thread but I wanted to make sure this wasn't lost...

iggymcfrack wrote:The other, the Jazz led 86-85 with 6 seconds left before the refs swallowed their whistles on one of the most egregious pushoffs in NBA history to give Jordan an uncontested look for the win.


You realize that's a textbook example of how coaches instruct players to use their off-arm on that particular kind of footwork for the pull-up, yes? That's not a push off, that's a perfectly legal move.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#3 » by Samurai » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:25 am

1. Bob Pettit 1959. (alternate 58, 62) I have Pettit as very close to Mikan so I suppose it makes sense for me to list him just after Mikan. In terms of how he did against his peers, I think a good argument could be made that 59 Pettit could have been a top ten season. Obviously we also have to look at the context of his season and the quality of his competition and figure out how much to penalize him for the era he played in. He was MVP in a league that had Bill Russell averaging 23 boards/game, a rookie Elgin Baylor averaging 25 pts and 15 rebounds/game, and Hall of Famers like Schayes, Arizin, Hagan, Cousy and Twyman in their primes. Pettit led the league with 29.4 pts/game, a 28.2 PER and 14.8 WS while finishing second in rebounds with 16.4/game.

2. Tracy McGrady 2003. Sure, its an outlier season for him but for this project that is irrelevant. For that one year, he put together his best shooting season with one of his better assist seasons. Also had his best season at drawing fouls and by far his best season ever in WS, WS/48, OBPM and PER.

3. Artis Gilmore 1975. Tremendous all-around season for a player who is often underrated. Averaged 23.6 pts/game while finishing second (behind Dr. J) in OWS. Second in offensive rebounds behind a rookie named Moses Malone. Led the league in DWS, total rebounds, total blocks, and defensive rating. Named first team All ABA, All-defensive first team, and MVP of the playoffs as he captured the only ring in his career.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#4 » by AEnigma » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:44 am

AEnigma wrote:1. Patrick Ewing (1990)
Shouldered a heavy offensive load like 1982 Moses Malone while providing strong defence. Ewing sadly had no true chance at MVP that year with peak-ish Magic and Jordan in the league, nor was he fortunate enough to be traded to a 1982 76ers equivalent. However, he did go on his own monstrous scoring run and pull off an unexpected upset of Bird’s Celtics, where Ewing won three straight elimination games averaging an efficient 36/13/5, including a road win in the league’s toughest road environment. Shortly after, with Pat Riley as his coach and a better but still unspectacular supporting cast, he came the closest to beating each of the 1992 Bulls, 1993 Bulls, and 1994 Rockets in their respective title years. If he had been his 1990 self, instead of a few years on with degrading knees and overall athleticism, maybe he could have broken through (almost certainly in 1994). Timing is such an under-appreciated element of how legacies are built in this sport.

Here are some of the best posts and articles I was able to find about that season:
Spoiler:
https://hardwoodhype.com/the-work/f/nba-1989-90-peak-patrick-ewing
Hardwood Hype wrote:Already a bona fide star, the 1989-90 season is the one in which Ewing catapulted himself into SUPERstardom.

Ewing hit on 55.1% of his shots and a career-high 77.5% of his free throws en route to 28.6 points per game, third-best in the league and a career-high. For good measure, 10.9 rebounds per game, which was fifth in the league, was his best to date, as were his Assist (10.0%) and Turnover Rates (12.4%).

Twenty-one times he scored at 35 points in a game – in no other season did he do so more than eleven times. Eleven times he went for at least 40 – it’s the only time he reached 40 more than four times in a season. He set a single-season high with twelve games of 30+ and at least 15 rebounds. On ten of those occasions he scored at least 35 – he never did this more than five times in any other season. Eight times in his career Ewing scored at least 30 and grabbed at least 20 rebounds. He did it three times in ’89-‘90 – it’s the only season in which he did it more than once. Two of these were the only 40-20 games of his career. By Basketball Reference Game Score, this is the season in which he turned his top four (and five of the top-ten) individual performances, regular and postseason. Only once since 1983-84 (the date from which B-R has Game Scores) has a center topped four such games in a season.

This is a breakout season of volume greatness and performances, by a short-lived version of Patrick Ewing. Beyond the goofy great statistics and but special, historic performances (more on this in a sec), this is a different Ewing than the Dream Teamer, let alone, the one who anchored the contending Knicks teams to come.

Consider the first of those 40-20s. A month into the season, during the Knicks’ annual visit to Oakland, Ewing positively battered the Warriors, making 17 of 27 shots on his way to 44 points, while grabbing 24 rebounds – ten of them offensive –blocking three shots and handing out four assists in an easy win.

And the hits just kept coming. Three nights later in Phoenix, he had 41, 8 and 4, with five blocks. Two weeks after that, on December 16, it was 30, 14 and six blocks in a home win over the Sonics. Three nights after that, 41, 15 and four blocks in another win, this time over the Jazz.

By the numbers, that night in northern California remained the best regular performance of his career… for about five weeks. On January 7 he basically replicated the feat at home against the Clippers, again scoring 44, this time with 22 rebounds, seven blocked shots, four assists and a pair of steals. Two nights later he hung 35 on the Bullets, before putting a 33 and 12, with five assists and eight blocks on the Bulls at MSG.

And so it went… 38, 15 and four blocks in Dallas… 24, 11 and nine against Miami… 35, 13 and seven the next night in Orlando… 33, 13 and six in Houston… a pair of 41s in wins on either side of the All-Star break, with a combined 25 rebounds and eleven blocks… 37, 13, six assists and three blocks against the defending champion Pistons… 30, 18 and six blocks against Philly… and on… and on…

The game at the Garden on March 24 was always going to be an event, as any visit from the Celtics was in those days. Though the Knicks ultimately fell by five, it was another milestone for Ewing, who grabbed a whopping 18 rebounds to go with a career-high 51, and looked completely unstoppable doing it.

The next time out it was 41 and 12 with four blocks against the Bullets. Four days later it was 37, 21 and six against Denver. This is one of ten 35/20/6 performances recorded since 1973-74 – it was Ewing’s second of the season, and remains the most recent. He went for 37 twice more in the week that followed, first with 17 rebounds in Washington, and two nights later, with 19 rebounds and nine blocks in a home win against Philly. Six times since 1973-74 has a player has scored 35, grabbed 15 rebounds and blocked nine shots in a game. Only four times has it been done in regulation. This is one of them. No one has done it since.

fatal9 wrote:Some context around the 1990 Knicks: The Knicks started out 34-17 before making the Strickland/Cheeks trade. Then finished the season 11-20 for a combination of reasons. I wish I had game 3 of the Celtics series on my computer because Peter Vecsey does a decent job in a halftime segment of showing all the chemistry issues the Knicks had in the last couple of months of the season (these issues were why Knicks were given no chance to beat the Celtics). From making the Strickland trade, to Mark Jackson getting booed on the court and benched for 33 year old Cheeks, to Oakley fracturing his left hand and missing games, to Kiki V coming back and joining the team. These are a LOT of lineup changes for a team to endure mid-season, Knicks had a different starting PG, a different starting PF (Oakley out), a different starting SF (all of whom were defensive downgrades) in the last month of the season than they did when they were winning and putting up one of the best records in the league. I don't think it's a coincidence how the team performance changed so much just as the Knicks began encountering instability in their lineup. Unfortunately this stretch thwarted Ewing's MVP campaign as well (he was in the convo with Magic, Barkley, MJ for it). That was a 50+ win team disguised by the issues at the end of the season, so I would say Ewing was doing a great job of getting the best out of what he was given.

Some posts here seem to be have no sense of context surrounding his season, no analysis of his game (probably haven't bothered to watch any games), just going off a very very superficial analysis of "let me check PER and team defensive rating" and draw conclusions. This type of analysis is only going to produce outrageous statements such as "90 Malone was better than Ewing" or that Ewing "wasn't even on par with Dwight".

This is a peak project, I have a feeling people are letting their bias from mid/late 90s Ewing (who I have issues with offensively too) cloud their judgement on how good he was this year. I had a similar bias, but then I began watching his games from that season (about 15 or so) and what I'm seeing a dominant defender (his defensive versatility is better here than later in the 90s, my one gripe defensively would be that he was more prone to foul trouble this season than he would be later) with an offensive package like we've never seen Ewing put together at any other point of his career.

Why was he so much better offensively? As I've been mentioning, he had more variety in his offensive game, this was something everyone in the league was talking about. He went from being a predictable offensive player who was easy to game plan for, to being a lot more well rounded who mixed up and expanded his scoring repertoire. He was better at creating space on his shots, got that extra bit of separation he wasn't quite getting later as the years went on and a result he was having a lot of success as a one on one scorer in the post. He was at his physical peak in the NBA, insane stamina, a lot more athletic, moved better, had a bit more spring in his legs, which naturally allowed him to have a better conversion rate around the basket. His aggressiveness is completely different, he wasn't content to bail you out with fadeaways all game, he attacked the defense more often ever and consequently posted the best FTA numbers of his career (combined with a career best FT% which further raised his efficiency). His passing also took a big leap that year. While he wasn't Shaq or prime Hakeem, he was competent at reading doubles, this is another observation that is obvious to me from watching games and also reading/listening to what people around the league were saying.

This isn't a guy who saw an increase in his averages because he just upped his numbers and feasted on bad defenses either (like say D-Rob in '94), he was lighting up everyone, [e.g.] putting up 41/15 on Eaton and 45/16 against the best defensive team in the league. His offensive numbers against good defensive teams/centers were very good over the course of the entire season.

Here's a Sports Illustrated article midway through the season (when Knicks were 25-10) talking about Ewing's amazing improvement on offense and how surprised everyone was by how much he improved:
But what the NBA is seeing these days, and is likely to be seeing through a good bit of the next decade, is much, much more. Some of the old images of Ewing are dated. He has buried them under an avalanche of soft, turnaround jump shots. "The book on him always was, Make him shoot over you, make him earn it," says Boston's backup center, Joe Kleine. "Well, now he's earning it." The power, the intimidation, the fearlessness are still there, but so are grace and finesse and economy of movement, terms previously associated with Houston's Akeem Olajuwon, Ewing's yardstick through most of the '80s, and San Antonio rookie David Robinson, the only other NBA center currently mentioned in the same breath with Ewing and Olajuwon.

Ewing's play has been an even more important component of New York's success. "He might be the best in the game right now," Los Angeles's Mychal Thompson told the New York Daily News after Ewing scored 29 points in a 115-104 loss on Dec. 3. "He and Magic [Johnson] are shoulder to shoulder."

"I know what people are saying now," says Jazz coach Jerry Sloan, "but when he came out of college, I don't recall anybody thinking he would score like this."

"I worked on some things this summer, just like I always do. I wanted to get better on coming into the lane with my left hand, and I've done that. I'm getting to the foul line more [his eight attempts per game are about two more than last season], and that's helped my scoring. But I haven't changed my jump shot. It just got better.

Ewing gradually improved under Pitino, but only recently has the whole package been unwrapped. It reveals an agile seven-footer whose turnaround jumper is accurate up to 20 feet; a heady player who discourages double-teaming with canny passes; an outstanding athlete who has somehow figured out the exotic fast-break passing strategies of point guards Mark Jackson and Rod Strickland, both of whom never make a simple move when 13 complicated ones will do; and a defensive intimidator whose 3.7 blocks per game at week's end were second only to Olajuwon's league-leading 4.2.

''He has taken his game to another level,'' Johnson continued, ''a level I've never seen him play at before. He's dominating offensively and defensively, but he's also making the right plays at the right time. He's leading his team, as opposed to before, when it seemed he'd just as soon let somebody else lead. That's the real mark of an MVP.'

https://vault.si.com/.amp/vault/1990/01/22/the-big-man-gets-bigger-patrick-ewing-has-added-finesse-to-his-intimidating-presence-and-made-new-york-an-nba-force

And people are questioning this guy's defense? Come on...this is '92-'94 Ewing but with way better knees. I mean every game I've seen of his from this season, it's the type of combo of scoring variety, defense and athleticism, Knicks fans always wished he had. He was seen as a better center than Hakeem that year, made the all-NBA first over him and had coaches around the league saying he was the best center in the league.

Parish said that Ewing "is a better player today because he has variety of shots, just doesn't throw the fadeaway jumpshot, he gives you the jump hook and his spin move on the baseline is the toughest thing for me to guard" (so this isn't exactly the fadeaway jumpers all game long offensive version of Ewing we remember most). From what I've read guys say about him, he took a big leap in his post game that season but declined as the 90s went on because his knees got worse and worse (and of course he aged, he was in his 30s during '92-'94...and consequently shot jumpers wayyyyyy more often), and as a result so did his efficiency. Even in something like FT shooting, it's way above his career average and his best year ever. He is doing a lot of heavy lifting offensively...must be turning the ball over a lot like he always did, but nope, while putting up the scoring numbers he did, he also posted the third best TOV% of his career. It's not like Ewing is inexperienced here either, he is 27-28 which is usually when players peak so career trajectory wise, it makes sense.

Knicks were still above average defensively considering the following things: a rookie head coach (Stu Jackson, fired 15 games into next season...and only coached one other team after that, the 6-33 Grizzlies), the second best defender on the team missing 21 games, a bad defensive backcourt particularly when Kiki joins the team. I would say he's making pretty good impact here (and we know he can probably make a lot more if he is on a championship caliber team where he doesn't have to score as much). This is one of the great interior defenders of all time, he didn't learn defense when he was 30 years old just like KG didn't magically learn to play defense when he joined the Celtics. His comparison was Bill Russell coming out of college, he was seen as one of the finest defensive talents ever. The questions weren't "can he defend?" but "can he add enough to his post game?" (and he did in 1990). In terms of interior defense, he's ones of the best ever, anything you threw around the basket was going to get challenged, no easy baskets even it meant you put him on a poster. He's second in the league in blocks behind Hakeem, I know averages aren't everything but this isn't Javale McGee we are talking about, but a fundamentally sound defensive player, who plays great post defense and whose block averages reflect his ability to absolutely lock down the paint. I'm going to guess a better moving version of the guy who was anchoring historic defenses a year and a half later was still pretty damn effective on defense. Seems like a reasonable conclusion.

Regarding the Ewing Theory. It refers to the mid/late 90s version of Ewing (in his mid 30s) who is 5+ years away from the year in question here and a CLEAR step down offensively. Even if it were true, it's not very relevant. It's like using Kobe's impact last couple of years to define his impact in '08.

One thing I kind of wish there was more of an argument for was D-Rob (who I think went a few spots too high) vs. Ewing. Would people really take '95 D-Rob in a playoff series over '90 Ewing? Has D-Rob ever taken over offensively for his teams in the playoffs like that? Could D-Rob give the bad boy Pistons defense 45 point game and then come back and drop 30 points in the second half of the next game? And don't forget the intangibles, Ewing was intimidating on the court, a better leader, a guy who has an impact over the entire mentality of the team. I think a great argument I read for D-Rob was that he'd be a great second banana offensively on a championship team but would still be the best overall player on the team...could the same thing not be said about '90 Ewing?
lorak wrote:Another great post by fatal and I agree with you 100%.

And Ewing theory is completly BS... at least until he was 36 years old. In 1986 he missed 32 games and NYK without him were worse by 6.2 efficiency pts (Ewing improved offense by 1 and defense by 5,2).

1987: 19 games missed, -7 without Ewing (0.4 offense, 6,6 defense)

1996: 6 games missed, -10.6 without Ewing (he improved defense by 12.2 drtg! but offense was worse with him by 1.6)

1998: 56 games missed, -5.4 without Ewing (he improved defense by 7.3 but offense was worse with him by 1.9)

1999: 12 games missed, NYK were better without him by 2.7 eff pts (but still defense was better with Ewing by 1.5)

2000: 20 games missed, team worse by 1.1 with Ewing (but with him offense was better by 3.5 and defense worse by 4.6)

So we see that through almost whole career he was great defensive player and during his early years, before knees were destroyed by injuries, he was also slightly positive player on offense. I really see no reason to put him so much behind DRob whose profile and impact on the game are very close to Ewing's.

E-Balla wrote:1990 Patrick Ewing - This season is spectacular. Ewing was legitimately up for MVP along with Barkley and Magic for most of the season prior to his team making some moves that hurt them. In the first 52 games of the season the Knicks went 34-17 (55 win pace) with Ewing averaging 27.8/10.2/2.3 (4.9 combined blocks and steals) on 58.7 TS% with a 114 ORTG. After the trade the Knicks went 11-20 which would make one assume Ewing didn't play well but he actually played better with the team around him falling apart. He averaged 30.0/12.1/2.1 (4.9 combined blocks and steals) on 61.9 TS% with a 116 ORTG in the last 31 games.

At one point they had a 1-9 stretch where Ewing averaged 32.1/12.5/1.3 (5.0 blocks and steals combined) on 64.5 TS%. His career high was in that stretch, a 51 point performance in a loss to the Celtics.

Then the playoffs came and Ewing went off. In game 1 vs Boston they lost pretty handedly and in game 2 they allowed Boston to break the playoff record for points with 157 (a record that still stands). Following that embarrassment at Boston they were facing elimination in game 3. Ewing and Oakley really turned on the defense and dominated the glass with Ewing grabbing 19 boards in the 3 point win. They followed that with a game 4 blowout win where Ewing played what's probably his best game ever with 44 points, 7 steals, 5 assists, and shooting 75% from the field. Now they were tied up in the series attempting to become the 2nd [sic] team to comeback from being down 0-2 and at the same time hoping to break a 28 game losing streak in Boston (the last time they won in Boston was in 84). The Knicks won that closely contested game with the momentum shifting towards the end of the game with Larry Bird missing an easy dunk and Ewing shortly after making his iconic turnaround 3 pointer.

On Larry Bird missing that dunk this is from SI's article on that series:
When Larry Bird missed the dunk—a point-blank dunk at crunch time in a do-or-die playoff game in Boston Garden—he did so not as a result of any strange astrological occurrence or the Massachusetts budget crisis or even tough defense.

He did so, by his own account, because he was worried. "I wasn't going to dunk it," he explained after the game. "But I thought Patrick was coming, so I tried to. And then I jumped too high, if you can believe it."

Believe it, as hard as it may seem. It is not the business of Boston Celtics to feel shadowy presences, least of all for Larry Legend to feel one from a New York Knick in the building in which New York had lost 26 straight times and hadn't won in the playoffs since the Nixon administration. This was the Garden, and the ghosts are supposed to be friendly. But: "I thought Patrick was coming."

If the truth be told, at the time of Bird's misguided dunk attempt, any Celtic was entitled to be wary of these Knicks. A little more than four minutes remained in Sunday's fifth and final game of these teams' first-round Eastern Conference playoff series, and the Patrick in question, a certain Mr. Ewing, had just feathered in a jump-hook to give New York a 103-99 lead. Ewing did just about everything asked of him in this game. He finished with 31 points and 10 assists, and those figures are stark testimony to how shrewdly he picked apart Boston's double teams with opportune passes and drives.

https://vault.si.com/.amp/vault/1990/05/14/oh-those-cheeky-knicks-mo-cheeks-drove-new-york-to-a-stunning-win-over-boston

Following that series they were completely outmatched by the Pistons but Ewing wasn't. He had some stinkers but overall averaged 27.2 ppg on 56 TS% which is more PPG than anyone outside of MJ (who was only as efficient as Ewing one of those 3 years) averaged against the Pistons in a series between 88 and 90.

EDIT: I punched the numbers. MJ averaged 30.0 ppg on 56.0 TS% against the Pistons from 88 to 90. He averaged 25.4 points per 36. Ewing averaged 26.2 points per 36 against them on 56.0 TS%. So his scoring performance against them was right there with MJ's average scoring performance against them.

Overall that's a pretty great season, but it's not the most impressive left on the board so why 90 Ewing? Well here's how I see his game:

Scoring - 28.6 ppg on +6.2 rTS% speaks for itself. Post merger only Moses (in 81), Robinson (in 94), and Shaq (in 94, 95, 00, and 01) have scored more ppg as a center. Only Shaq in 94, 00, and 01 did it on higher efficiency. In the playoffs he showed he could consistently score on that level scoring 29.4 ppg on 57.9 TS% in the playoffs. Post merger only Shaq (in 98, 00, and 01), Hakeem (in 88 and 95), and Kareem (in 77 and 80) scored more ppg than Ewing in the 90 playoffs. Only Kareem in both years, and Shaq in 98 did it on higher efficiency.

Then you look at his skillset. He had a robotic but effective post game with a predictable but at times unstoppable running hook shot, great speed and strength, the best jumper for any true C I've seen outside of KAT, and his one weakness was probably his small hands which at times limited him on lobs and lead to easy misses of his signature finger roll. There's a solid argument to be made that outside of the true greats (Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Moses, Shaq) he's the best scoring C ever. I think his scoring game would suit the modern game amazingly too. Ewing got most of his buckets back then off quick actions and turnaround jumpers, things that would be more valued in today's league at his size.

His passing and rebounding on the other hand were never strong. His passing was below average and his rebounding was mediocre at best for his size.

There's been a lot of discussion about his defense this year. Discussion I don't really understand. Ewing was still an elite defender in 1990 and I don't really have any reason to think he improved after 1990. Played better? In 1992, definitely, but outside of that the biggest change in the quality of the Knicks defense those years was due to his support and most of all the coach. The coach's effect on defensive ratings is always overlooked but there's no great defenses that don't have great defensive coaches and his supporting cast was Oak, Wilkins, and a bunch of scrubs in 1990.

On that end he was a beast out on the perimeter capable of sticking with smaller guys, super athletic and capable of blocking shots at their apex, the best PNR defender of all the Cs of that era (DRob, Hakeem, Deke, and a little later Zo) and he had fast hands capable of stopping drives. Can anyone actually say what he improved at under Pat Riley? I mean performances aren't consistent which is why I think he was better defensively in 89, 92, etc. but why believe Ewing was a meaningfully better defender in the mid 90s just because he finally got a supporting cast that was dominant on that end and a great defensive coach?

I think tons of people just aren't used to seeing young Ewing so they see the numbers and can't connect it to him being legitimately better, and assume he had to have improved later when in reality he lost a ton of his athleticism and really didn't add much to his game. 93/94 Ewing isn't locking down Edwards on the perimeter, forcing Isiah to pick up his dribble and rush a pass (causing a turnover) after a switch in the PNR, drawing a charge on Isiah all the way at the dotted line with his quick reaction and movement (it was called blocking but he's clearly there in time), stopping 3 on 1 fast breaks because no one wanted to go up with it with him around, and at the end of the game blocking Isiah's layup from the other side of the basket.

2. Dwight Howard (2011)
Put simply, I think he is the best remaining defender in contention (perhaps depending on whether Thurmond qualifies as a contender, which he might), and while I have some issues with his offensive profile in the postseason and with that profile’s ability to translate dynamically across different teams, his intense rim gravity gives him a pretty fair floor. He was a top player on par with several already admitted — 2009-11 Wade, 2009-11 Dirk, 2005-11 Nash — and has a theoretical framework of “Rudy Gobert with legitimate scoring pressure”. As with Ewing, also worth considering just how much timing affects our assessments: could the 2011 iteration of Dwight and a healthy Jameer Nelson have won the title in 2009?

3. Tracy McGrady (2003)
4. Joel Embiid (2022)

McGrady led +5 on-court offences with competent but limited support. He profiles similarly to 1987 Jordan (better on offence, worse on defence) and 2006 Kobe, with a more impressive first round performance than either. Cannot talk myself into any wing over him. Embiid and Lanier have interesting cases as bigs, but I think Embiid’s health is a bit too prohibitive in the postseason by comparison, and Lanier (or any other centre really) did not do enough to evidence that they would provide more overall value to a title level team than Embiid does. Look at Reed and Gilmore. Could the teams with which they won also win with a hampered Embiid, or with an Embiid who misses a couple of games? We know the answer for Reed, and I feel pretty secure in a similar answer for Gilmore too (those Colonels had an impressive collection of talent outside of him, even if he was the clear best piece). McGrady never made it out of the first round, Embiid has yet to make it out of the second. The past three years, Embiid lost to the conference runner-up, which is around par with McGrady’s losses considering respective support (and in 2019 Embiid had one of the league’s three best co-stars). Both probably need a strong team to win — Embiid to cover for his health, McGrady to cover for uh being worse — but I think the differences (health versus “quality”) lean McGrady.
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Some people are clearly far too overreliant on data without context and look at good all in one or impact numbers and get wowed by that rather than looking at how a roster is actually built around a player
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#5 » by tsherkin » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:57 am

1990 Ewing is a bit of a tough sell, given how he collapsed against the Pistons in Game 5 that year. He was, on the playoffs, about 9% worse in terms of FG% in the playoffs compared to the RS and then yeah, a sterling 7/23 performance to get erased by Detroit. It was surely his best regular season, but we've seen a lot better in terms of offensive impact. His offense was unremarkable that year, PPG aside. His defense was good; his team's D was not. They didn't quite have the roster they did later on, of course, and they were 2 years away from having Pat Riley at the helm to tighten things up.

I dunno. It still feels... off to me. I think someone like 03 McGrady did more with offense alone than Ewing did combining O and D in 1990. Same same 17 Westbrook. I think Ewing belongs a few spots lower, competing with like 94 Pippen and some others like that, personally.

EDIT: And yes, G5 is a single game. And PS performance drops aren't surprising, particularly in jumper-heavy bigs like Ewing, Karl Malone, etc. I just... Ewing's offensive profile is less impressive the more you dig beneath just 28.6 ppg and all kinds of stuff starts coming up.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#6 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:20 am

1st ballot: '22 Joel Embiid (> '21)
Honestly, on a per-minute basis, I think Embiid is a bit better/more valuable than anyone left on the table (and perhaps has been for a few threads now). We're talking about a top 3 defensive center who also led the league in scoring [on good efficiency]; and a decent passing big. That's crazy.
It's simply the missed games/durability concerns (in BOTH rs and playoffs) combined with relatively restricted minutes that held him back from top 20(ish) status for me.


2nd ballot: '03 Tracy McGrady
Not sure how much of a ceiling raiser he can be, but this was perhaps an all-time tier floor-raising carry-job. I'm going to quote portions of posts of other posters [from the TMac vs Drexler thread] for argumentation...

tsherkin wrote:He was a +4.5% rTS guy (109 TS+) in that 02-03 season. Led the league in usage at 35.2%, led the league in OWS (13.2) on a 42-win team. 30.3 PER, led the league. .262 WS/48, league-high. +9.8 OBPM, league-high. Second in the league in oRAPM behind Dirk.

I'm about to focus on OBPM, but obviously it is just one stat, and one which has its own pros and cons. But I do want to examine the achievement, since we're speaking specifically of offense and specifically of peak.

Keep in mind, there are 3 seasons in league history of 2,000+ minutes and 9.5+ OBPM. McGrady's 9.8 is second-highest on that list, ahead of 09 Lebron's 9.5, and behind 2016 Steph's 10.3. There are 9 player-seasons of +9.0 or better with those 2,000 minutes, just to open it up to a slightly less arbitrary range. Lebron's on it 3 times, and Jokic is on it twice. No one else is on it more than once.

2016 Steph
03 McGrady
09 Lebron
19 Harden
13 Lebron
22 Jokic
21 Jokic
90 MJ
10 Lebron

Just for reference.

Drexler's career-high is +6.8 OBPM, from the 92 season when his Blazers lost to MJ in the Finals. It was part of a stretch of 5-straight seasons of +5.0 or better, and six seasons in eight. Never managed double-digit OWS. Never exceeded 24.1 PER. rTS a little lower in his peak seasons than McGrady. Never exceeded 27.2 ppg. Never exceeded 28.7 USG. Topped out at 29.9% AST and 12.4% TOV, against 03 McGrady's 30.0% USG and 8.4% TOV.


rk2023 wrote:https://thedyspatch.com/2022/05/31/how-good-all-time-was-2021-22-luka-doncic-on-offense-for-his-age/?preview_id=7677&preview_nonce=9b2a701c1c&preview=true&_thumbnail_id=7735

In an article I previously wrote, I described TMac's offensive game and value before.

Some stats:

33.4 Adjusted Points (leading the league) on +4.5 relative-to-league average true shooting
5.4 Assists, along with a 9.9 Offensive Box Creation and 7.6 Passer Rating
6.4 Rebounds (1.6 coming on the offensive end)
5.8 BackPicks Box Plus-Minus, 4.4 Augmented Plus-Minus / Game (4th and 5th in the league)

Posting one of the highest possessional scoring rates in NBA history, McGrady demonstrated a versatile scoring arsenal – leveraging his size and quickness for a long mid-range and 3-Point driven shot diet (57.7% of his total field-goal attempts, shooting 43.1 and 38.6 % on these level shots respectively) with stellar low post play and basket drives in addition. In a situation with relatively poor spacing and offensive support, McGrady was often responsible for creating possessions. His volume scoring gave him significant attention through doubles – where he showed a solid ability to pass out of them – dishing assists over the heads of defenders (the hyperlinked clip shows career highlights, including his 2002-03 season). How much McGrady was responsible directly impacted his team’s situation. With a 105.2 rated team offensive (good for 10th in the league), 74% of this production came with McGrady on – where the team posted a 109.3 offense (5.7 points above league average). In the other 26%, the Magic posted only a 91.8 offensive rating.

This goes to show how much of a load McGrady shouldered, where he ultimately brought the Magic to the first round of the playoffs in an 8 vs. 1 seed matchup against the 2002-03 Pistons (whom were anchored by a 99.9 rated team defense). While McGrady had some struggles down the stretch, he still performed well in totality. His averages in the series, listed below, show a somewhat decline in creation, but this can certainly be explored further when considering an inferior (for star standards) supporting cast and the opponent faced. In a better situation, there would certainly be a chance McGrady could engine a championship level offense.

32.5 Points on +5.5 relative-to-opponent average true shooting
4.4 Assists, with an 8.1 Offensive Box Creation and 5.8 Passer Rating
6.2 Rebounds (1.4 coming on the offensive end)
5.0 BackPicks Box Plus-Minus

Looking at all of that, it is clear McGrady has posted a season that is more impactful than any variant of Drexler. Even with such a high offensive load and responsibility, I believe McGrady didn't quite have scoring blindness --- nor was he a slouch off ball. As a matter of fact, he was a very good playmaker off of his scoring gravity and I believe him to be the best offensive player in the league in 2003 (with Shaq declining and Kobe not quite reaching his apex then).

.


3rd ballot: '90 Patrick Ewing ('94 Ewing)
I'll make it short and sweet for Ewing: an underrated [by casuals] defensive anchor (I mean that in an all-time sense); a better pnr defender than Hakeem imo (at least in roughly '90-'94), excellent rotational defender, very good low-post defender, good/adequate rim protector (lower block numbers than many of the great defensive centers of his time, but less likely to make a silly foul on a jump-shooter than say....young Hakeem), more than adequate on the defensive glass.
Anchored a couple of the best team defenses of all-time (they were certainly ensemble efforts, with a number of good defensive players at multiple positions.....but Ewing the most valuable among them, imo), while also shouldering a big offensive load (even if he wasn't terribly-well suited to it).
Ultimately I'm pretty impressed by an [arguably] top 10-15 defensive C of all-time who also was able to shoulder some offensive load (little bit of floor-spreading, too). Honestly, if he were even a Hakeem-level passer, I'd probably put him in my top 20-25 peaks.


4th: '11 Dwight Howard (> '09 Howard)
5th: '61 Elgin Baylor (> '62)
6th: '75 Artis Gilmore
7th: '22 Luka Doncic ('21, '20) -- not real sure to place him, but couple other posters are making me think it's time to get him in the mix
8th: '17 Russell Westbrook
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#7 » by trelos6 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:38 am

It’s getting close now and hard to rank players, so I decided to look at all the candidates.

pp75 rTS% O-PIPM D-PIPM Load Team Ortg Team Drtg
Patrick Ewing 89-90 27.2 6.2 3.1 2.6 39 13th (1.3) 13th
Reggie Miller 93-94 23 10.8 3.8 -0.2 35.4 11th (1.5) 8th
Scottie Pippen 95-96 20.9 0.9 3.3 1.7 41.5 1st (7.5) 1st
Grant Hill 96-97 23.2 2 3.5 1.7 44.5 5th (3.9) 11th
Dwight Howard 10-11 24 7.5 4.1 2.3 34.3 14th (0.5) 3rd
Penny Hardaway 95-96 23.2 6.3 4.6 0.2 44.1 3rd (5.2) 12th
Tracy mcgrady 02-03 31.5 4.5 6.3 -1.3 53.8 10th (1.6) 20th
Draymond Green 15-16 14.6 4.6 5.2 4.6 34.3 1st (8.1) 5th

Aside from terrible formatting (don’t know how to make a table), it’s clear that I need to rethink T-Mac.

I’d probably lean Draymond Green 2015-16 right now as my 33.

So my order is as follows:

33. Draymond Green 15-16
34. T-Mac 02-03
35. Penny Hardaway 95-96
36. Scottie Pippen 95-96
37. Grant Hill 96-97
38. Patrick Ewing 89-90
39. Dwight Howard 10-11
40. Reggie Miller 93-94

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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#8 » by AEnigma » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:41 am

tsherkin wrote:1990 Ewing is a bit of a tough sell, given how he collapsed against the Pistons in Game 5 that year. He was, on the playoffs, about 9% worse in terms of FG% in the playoffs compared to the RS and then yeah, a sterling 7/23 performance to get erased by Detroit. It was surely his best regular season, but we've seen a lot better in terms of offensive impact. His offense was unremarkable that year, PPG aside. His defense was good; his team's D was not. They didn't quite have the roster they did later on, of course, and they were 2 years away from having Pat Riley at the helm to tighten things up.

I dunno. It still feels... off to me. I think someone like 03 McGrady did more with offense alone than Ewing did combining O and D in 1990. Same same 17 Westbrook. I think Ewing belongs a few spots lower, competing with like 94 Pippen and some others like that, personally.

EDIT: And yes, G5 is a single game. And PS performance drops aren't surprising, particularly in jumper-heavy bigs like Ewing, Karl Malone, etc. I just... Ewing's offensive profile is less impressive the more you dig beneath just 28.6 ppg and all kinds of stuff starts coming up.

Yeah going 7/23 in an elimination game against an elite Pistons defence should definitely be disqualifying.

Unrelated, could someone remind me how 2003 McGrady’s season ended?
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#9 » by tsherkin » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:00 am

AEnigma wrote:Yeah going 7/23 in an elimination game against an elite Pistons defence should definitely be disqualifying.


Does it strike you that your sarcasm is somehow endearing, or are you this way because you're trying to ruin conversation by acting like a pre-teen?
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#10 » by AEnigma » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:07 am

tsherkin wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Yeah going 7/23 in an elimination game against an elite Pistons defence should definitely be disqualifying.

Does it strike you that your sarcasm is somehow endearing, or are you this way because you're trying to ruin conversation by acting like a pre-teen?

Sorry to ruin your very legitimate conversation about how Ewing going 7/23 is an unforgivable collapse.

You think Westbrook and McGrady contributed more to overall offence than Ewing did combined offence and defence? Sure, perfectly reasonable stance. But you can make a better argument than “7/23” — especially when the guy you are trying to boost did even worse. :noway: And pouting over having that called out is as childish as it gets.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#11 » by tsherkin » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:12 am

AEnigma wrote:Sorry to ruin your very legitimate conversation about how Ewing going 7/23 is an unforgivable collapse.


You're a wearisome individual. There's even an edit in my post from immediately after it dropped noting that there's more to it than just the single game. Bet you didn't want to recall that because it snipped the wings of your churlish sarcasm a bit, though, didn't it?

As I noted, there are other components to it than just the single game. Perhaps if you read the whole thing, instead of the bit you wanted to have a go at, that would have been clearer to you.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#12 » by AEnigma » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:32 am

tsherkin wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Sorry to ruin your very legitimate conversation about how Ewing going 7/23 is an unforgivable collapse.

You're a wearisome individual. There's even an edit in my post from immediately after it dropped noting that there's more to it than just the single game. Bet you didn't want to recall that because it snipped the wings of your churlish sarcasm a bit, though, didn't it?

As I noted, there are other components to it than just the single game. Perhaps if you read the whole thing, instead of the bit you wanted to have a go at, that would have been clearer to you.

Yes, I must have missed the enlightening addition present in:
just... Ewing's offensive profile is less impressive the more you dig beneath just 28.6 ppg and all kinds of stuff starts coming up.

Do you sincerely feel that clarified anything past your original complaints about that single game?

Funny thing is that for Ewing it has to be that single game. McGrady? 47.4% efficiency over the final four games. Not boosting his team’s defence. Not providing elite playmaking. But none of that gets discussed. I suppose it was simply of no interest to you. Nor was responding to anything in my long collection of discussion of Ewing — although I suppose I should assume you read it, because certainly you would not want to be hypocritical in that particular criticism, right.

Nope, you want to go “7/23”, and then when you realised that might look bad, added an empty edit expanding nothing.

I realise it must be “wearisome” to ask for some actual effort in this “conversation,” but I do not think that standard is unfair, and certainly nowhere near as “churlish” as how you respond to having that laziness highlighted. Two posts later, and still nothing to be added apart from another tantrum.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#13 » by OhayoKD » Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:15 am

1. 17 Westbrook
(2016)
Having out-valued, out-box stat'd and out-played prime KD in the post-season while staying within range in the regular season, 2016 Westbrook(and to an extent 2014 westbrook) is a great peak aready. Adding in westbrook's tendency to get better vs stronger opponents and his significant playoff elevation on very strong playoff opponents(crushing the 70 win spurs, taking the warriors to 7, pushing the 14 spurs to overtime of game 6, beating the best clippersi iterations, ect, ect) and Westbrook accomplishing this without good spacing, 2016(and 2014 to a degree) sets a verty strong floor.

2017 Westbrook can claim a stronger regular season performance(second in impact stuff behind 2017 curry), a better skill-set(stronger catch and shoot) and nothing about the rockets first playoff exit really calls into questions Westbrook's track record as a playoff elevator.

2. 94 Scottie Pippen
(91, 92)
Led a contender without Jordan winnning 55 rs games, sweeping a 48 win team in the ffirst round and nearly taking the 61 srs knicks out with maybe the best performance of his career. Biggest factor in Jordan's 50 win bulls sides turning into atg teams, arguably the best non-big defender ever, and one of the best creators of the 90's starting in the 91 playoffs.

3. 2022 Embid
Improved from leading a contender in 2019 across the board in the regular, strong playoff performances in adverse circumstances and mvp level impact with questionable fit
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#14 » by OhayoKD » Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:19 am

tsherkin wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Yeah going 7/23 in an elimination game against an elite Pistons defence should definitely be disqualifying.


Does it strike you that your sarcasm is somehow endearing, or are you this way because you're trying to ruin conversation by acting like a pre-teen?

It's endearing to me lol
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#15 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:02 pm

tsherkin wrote:1990 Ewing is a bit of a tough sell, given how he collapsed against the Pistons in Game 5 that year. He was, on the playoffs, about 9% worse in terms of FG% in the playoffs compared to the RS and then yeah, a sterling 7/23 performance to get erased by Detroit.


His FG% didn't fall 9% in ps relative to rs; it only fell 3% (his TS% only fell 2%, and still notably above league average [that is: solidly "good"]).
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#16 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:37 pm

AEnigma wrote:
I realise it must be “wearisome” to ask for some actual effort in this “conversation,” but I do not think that standard is unfair, and certainly nowhere near as “churlish” as how you respond to having that laziness highlighted. Two posts later, and still nothing to be added apart from another tantrum.


Check your PM's.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#17 » by tsherkin » Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:54 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
tsherkin wrote:1990 Ewing is a bit of a tough sell, given how he collapsed against the Pistons in Game 5 that year. He was, on the playoffs, about 9% worse in terms of FG% in the playoffs compared to the RS and then yeah, a sterling 7/23 performance to get erased by Detroit.


His FG% didn't fall 9% in ps relative to rs; it only fell 3% (his TS% only fell 2%, and still notably above league average [that is: solidly "good"]).


No, not on the PS, in the Detroit series. He shot 46.6 vs the Pistons.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#18 » by AEnigma » Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:08 pm

E-Balla wrote:they were completely outmatched by the Pistons but Ewing wasn't. He had some stinkers but overall averaged 27.2 ppg on 56 TS% which is more PPG than anyone outside of MJ (who was only as efficient as Ewing one of those 3 years) averaged against the Pistons in a series between 88 and 90.

EDIT: I punched the numbers. MJ averaged 30.0 ppg on 56.0 TS% against the Pistons from 88 to 90. He averaged 25.4 points per 36. Ewing averaged 26.2 points per 36 against them on 56.0 TS%. So his scoring performance against them was right there with MJ's average scoring performance against them.

Post merger only Moses (in 81), Robinson (in 94), and Shaq (in 94, 95, 00, and 01) have scored more ppg as a center. Only Shaq in 94, 00, and 01 did it on higher efficiency. In the playoffs he showed he could consistently score on that level scoring 29.4 ppg on 57.9 TS% in the playoffs. Post merger only Shaq (in 98, 00, and 01), Hakeem (in 88 and 95), and Kareem (in 77 and 80) scored more ppg than Ewing in the 90 playoffs. Only Kareem in both years, and Shaq in 98 did it on higher efficiency.

Highlighting this. Jordan in the regular season from 1988-90 averaged 59.7% efficiency, so again pretty much the same drop that Ewing saw (but of course not in raw field goal percentage…). Hard to see how that scoring performance is any sort of comparative negative. A bit akin to pillorying Giannis for his scoring against the Celtics this year.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#19 » by capfan33 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:10 pm

1. 90 Ewing
I'm not very familiar with Ewing overall, but I do know he was a historically great defensive anchor who anchored some of the greatest defenses ever. AEngima's posts in the previous thread are largely the reason for this vote, as he showed how 1990 for Ewing was actually a legitimate outlier for him due to an improved offensive skillset while still maintaining his athleticism, and I suspect that the better defensive results in 93 and 94 are more due to roster construction and coaching than Ewing himself. In a general sense, I like his skillset quite a bit, a legitimate top-10 defensive anchor ever who also had outside shooting touch and athleticism to play in the pick and roll. It plays well in many teams in any era, and as such I'm unexpectedly voting for Ewing here.

2. 11 Dwight
ATG defender with good offense and great athleticism, I think he's probably somewhat underrated in a historical sense because we see what he is now but forget the force he was before the injuries took their toll. I've seen some interesting stuff on Malone and Stockton, who I used to exclusively view as postseason chokers but thanks to Colt18 and what Proxy wrote in the last thread I've had to reconsider that viewpoint some, but I still don't think either of them has any skill that matches Dwight's defensive impact. I'm not sure where to put Paul due to injury as well as general postseason issues and I hate the idea of building around Chuck. So Dwight seems like the best candidate left.

3. 03 Tmac
Insane year but once again have a hard time buying single-year outliers. However, unlike some of the other cases, Tmac was a legitimately insane player in terms of skill set and physical attributes to the point where I can buy his level in 2003 more than say, AD in 2020. Had a very up-and-down series against an admittedly insane Pistons defense in the worst era for perimeter scorers ever and so I still view the playoff series as a positive. If he actually came anywhere close to matching his 1st 3 games overall 7 it would be one of the 5 or so best perimeter series ever I would guess. Also, love his skillset generally, he really could do almost anything and I do think this is one of the few cases where intangibles, conditioning, and approach are a legitimate gripe when it comes to an ATG player. So I feel pretty comfortable with him here.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 

Post#20 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:38 pm

tsherkin wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
tsherkin wrote:1990 Ewing is a bit of a tough sell, given how he collapsed against the Pistons in Game 5 that year. He was, on the playoffs, about 9% worse in terms of FG% in the playoffs compared to the RS and then yeah, a sterling 7/23 performance to get erased by Detroit.


His FG% didn't fall 9% in ps relative to rs; it only fell 3% (his TS% only fell 2%, and still notably above league average [that is: solidly "good"]).


No, not on the PS, in the Detroit series. He shot 46.6 vs the Pistons.


Ahh, I see. The quoted portion just says "in the playoffs".

His FG% was just 46.6% in the Piston series, though I frown a little about wording it like "his FG% was down and then yeah, a sterling 7/23 performance....."

That makes it seem as though he struggled the whole series, and then capped it off with that terrible shooting night......but in fact it is that night alone which is the reason his FG% was 46.6% for the series. He was actually 41/80 [51.25%] from the field in the first four games combined.
Even inclusive of game 5, he averaged 27.2 ppg @ 56% TS; not too shabby against the #2 defense in the league.

I also don't agree with the implication that a bad performance from Ewing is the reason they got erased. Let's be real: they were never beating this Piston team; they just weren't good enough. He plays better there, maybe they see a game 6 [maybe not]; maybe even a game 7. But Detroit was quite simply a substantially better team: that they win was all but a foregone conclusion, imo.
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