Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #33 - 1989-90 Patrick Ewing

[Owly]

Am not an expert in getting into the weeds stuff or nor big on weighting playoffs (and for peaks theirs a lot of small samples and very specific circumstance) but Ewing's playoff '90 offense seems the wrong end to target, he's efficient, atypically low turnover and is passing more than is typical.

Defensive stuff would warrant a closer eye before reaching any strong conclusions but his counterpoints box does suggest a possible point of weakness.

His likely primary matchups Edwards and Parish (overall a notorious playoff faller) post strong efficiency number in terms of scoring and offensive rating (Parish .574 efg%, .638 ts%, 126 Ortg [18 orb%]; Edwards those numbers are .588, .617, 117 [usage up to 27.2%]). One should not necessarily apply team results to individual performances but a tight team defense might justify a center allowing his man to score (or sweep the glass in Parish's case) ... in Boston though New York allowed (a then ... not sure now) playoff run record record for the Celtics of .548 fg% and 119.3 Ortg (Detroits would be 114.5 in their NY series).

Finally, and more speculatively (again a deeper dive would be warranted before really pursuing this line of thinking) - regarding the Pistons specific debate - there may be an argument that facing a genuine center would be their relative weak point. At guard Dumars could be the man cover with bodies and fouls coming in if you penetrate. Versus forwards there's Rodman, or if a touch more length required Salley (or for '89 Mahorn for a power matchup) and in any case more fouls if penetrating from outside. But starting closer to the basket. Laimbeer is savvy, knows the tricks, takes charges, rebounds but is perhaps overmatched by a younger, bigger, more athletic center. Edwards, the starter that year at the position, has more of center's frame but despite presumably enough buy in to get by in Detroit, was widely regarded as a bad defender through his career and poor even in Detroit (Barry graded C and C after '89 and '90) and is also getting on at this point. Mahorn is no longer an alternate look available and Salley too slender at this point. Fwiw, Bob Bellotti's "boxscore defense" after the '89 season (the only version of his books I have ranks Detroit's center defense clearly their worst - point 4th (of 25), shooting guard 1st (of 28), small forward 2nd["Dantley"]/3rd["Aguirre"] (of 25), power forward 3rd (of 26), center 11th (of 26). Different numbers in the total "of ..." due to cases where there wasn't a clear notional starter for the team. '90 does see a shift in positions with Laimbeer starting and playing more at the 4 with Mahorn's departure, though per the above anecdotally that would seem to weaken the Pistons' center D. Suggest some caution here but at the same time wouldn't necessarily assume a good Detroit D means one necessarily particularly effective at mitigating centers(/center productivity).

I'll reiterate this isn't something I'm massively into or tend to focus heavily on.

[falcolombardi]

Not gonna have much time to go in depth these days so here is my vote and hopefully i have more time in the next round

1- 1990 ewing

Out of the 3 biggest 90's names left (karl, chuck and ewing) i believe him to be the easiest one to build a championship around

His defense will fit anywhere and his offense could have been optimized as a pick and roll partner alongside more talented ballhandlers

The knicks prolonged contention in the 90's anchored by a physicslly diminished ewing hint that imo

2-1994 scottie pippen (1996, 1995)

Many will probably disagree here but i am that high on scottie. He can anchor a contending level team in both ends (shown in 94) and be one of the most impactful second options in the history of the game due to his ability to impact the game without dominating the ball or taking a ton of shots

Compare him with barkley. Pippen bulls in 94 match favorably with the best barkley sixers teams

The 93 suns were fantastic but that was a team that was routinely winning 55~ games a year before him and had a strong kevin johnson led offense already. Put 94 pippen in barkley place and i could see a scenario where they are even better

3- 2021 joel embiid

I thought about him vs mcgrady/reggie miller/luka/butler etc. And decided that at this point i would rather build a team around embiid two way package

Still strong defense when fully focused (which is mostly just the playoffs) and impressive scoring forcr that can force defenses to break and generate shots even if his so-so passing puts a cap on how much embiid can exploit this

His foul drawing (fully earned or not) is also a underated advantage in how consistwntly it puts the other teams in the bonus or fouk trouble

And even with playoffs drop offs his impact metrics in the postseason are way better than most would expect... like all time level good in admittedlt small sample sizes so he clesrly moves the needle for his team by a lot

My issues with him are his fragility albeit to his credit and comparing to paul he has mostly been able to stay on the court and inpactful even through injuries

4- reggie miller 1998

Have not decided which year, probably settle for 98 because of the deep playoff run but he was a fairly metronomic player

I am considering him above embiid for the next round but i am undecided. Will ponder more on him when i get time to watch more games

5- i am probably leaning on luka, butler or Mcgrady here. Need to watch more film on t-mac and consider this more, maybe they could go above reggie

Then compare these guys to second tier all time bigs like mourning, mutombo and peak draymond

Then there are the older players i am unfamiliar with and need to dive into like Barry, baylor, havlicek, pettit, frazier, or gilmore

[trex_8063]

5- i am probably leaning on luka, butler or Mcgrady here. Need to watch more film on t-mac and consider this more, maybe they could go above reggie

Crap, I totally forgot about Jimmy Butler. Yeah, I need to figure out where he sits in the mix here; it's time to at least consider him a little.

[falcolombardi]

5- i am probably leaning on luka, butler or Mcgrady here. Need to watch more film on t-mac and consider this more, maybe they could go above reggie

Crap, I totally forgot about Jimmy Butler. Yeah, I need to figure out where he sits in the mix here; it's time to at least consider him a little.

I am more surprised nobody has even mentioned 2016 draymond yet

At this stage of the project a dpoy defender with strong passing and jumpshooting (that single year) is quite the player

A negative defender that is not quite among the best offensive players ever (but close) in barkley is already in a while ago. 2016 draymond defense may not be quite as impactful as barkley offense but is close enough that his positive offense may close the gap

Another impact monster year in a unusual profile/style is manu ginobili in 2005, and there is always mutombo and his outlier defensive impact metrics

[trex_8063]

5- i am probably leaning on luka, butler or Mcgrady here. Need to watch more film on t-mac and consider this more, maybe they could go above reggie

Crap, I totally forgot about Jimmy Butler. Yeah, I need to figure out where he sits in the mix here; it's time to at least consider him a little.

I am more surprised nobody has even mentioned 2016 draymond yet

At this stage of the project a dpoy defender with strong passing and jumpshooting (that single year) is quite the player

Yeah, it gets awfully "busy" out this far on a peaks list; I think one could justifiably make a case for probably a dozen or so different players at this stage.

My reluctance with Draymond is that he's not a floor-raiser.......like at all. He thrives when surrounded by offensive talents and excellent spacing. Take those things away, and well.....see '20. He's a fairly pedestrian +2.8 net on/off despite having probably the worst supporting cast in the league (where one would think a truly great player would be a savior [see multiple years of KG as example of floor-raising]).
He lifts them from being the worst team in the league with him off to being maybe 28th of 30 with him on; which is to say: not a lot. If we're talking about a top 35 peak EVER, to me that's got to be a guy who can both be valuable on a good team [even if it's not quite as valuable as '16 Dray was to the Warriors] and be valuable in a multitude of less fortunate scenarios (that is: floor-raising scenarios).

[AEnigma]

One guy is voting for Draymond. But he and Manu are top fifty cases for me, not top forty.

[falcolombardi]

Crap, I totally forgot about Jimmy Butler. Yeah, I need to figure out where he sits in the mix here; it's time to at least consider him a little.

I am more surprised nobody has even mentioned 2016 draymond yet

At this stage of the project a dpoy defender with strong passing and jumpshooting (that single year) is quite the player

Yeah, it gets awfully "busy" out this far on a peaks list; I think one could justifiably make a case for probably a dozen or so different players at this stage.

My reluctance with Draymond is that he's not a floor-raiser.......like at all. He thrives when surrounded by offensive talents and excellent spacing. Take those things away, and well.....see '20. He's a fairly pedestrian +2.8 net on/off despite having probably the worst supporting cast in the league (where one would think a truly great player would be a savior [see multiple years of KG as example of floor-raising]).
He lifts them from being the worst team in the league with him off to being maybe 28th of 30 with him on; which is to say: not a lot. If we're talking about a top 35 peak EVER, to me that's got to be a guy who can both be valuable on a good team [even if it's not quite as valuable as '16 Dray was to the Warriors] and be valuable in a multitude of less fortunate scenarios (that is: floor-raising scenarios).

Always felt that year draymond really gave up on the season, which is damning in a different way (a player who gives up trying if his team is not good or doesnt have a decent chance to compete)

[VanWest82]

At what point do you have to start considering Bob McAdoo? Yes, he ultimately lost to Elvin and Wes Unseld and those guys in round one but that 75 campaign was a hell of a season. Winning MVP in the middle of Kareem's prime has to count for something.

Edit: I understand knocking him for being a bit of a one hit wonder and for being...umm, not the greatest defensively, but if we're just talking about individual season impact, he's up there.

[falcolombardi]

At what point do you have to start considering Bob McAdoo? Yes, he ultimately lost to Elvin and Wes Unseld and those guys in round one but that 75 campaign was a hell of a season. Winning MVP in the middle of Kareem's prime has to count for something.

Edit: I understand knocking him for being a bit of a one hit wonder and for being...umm, not the greatest defensively, but if we're just talking about individual season impact, he's up there.

Not too familiar with him beyond the stats but i would love if you talked on him

Is not a player i know much of

[VanWest82]

At what point do you have to start considering Bob McAdoo? Yes, he ultimately lost to Elvin and Wes Unseld and those guys in round one but that 75 campaign was a hell of a season. Winning MVP in the middle of Kareem's prime has to count for something.

Edit: I understand knocking him for being a bit of a one hit wonder and for being...umm, not the greatest defensively, but if we're just talking about individual season impact, he's up there.

Not too familiar with him beyond the stats but i would love if you talked on him

Is not a player i know much of

I would defer to 70sfan on most things 70s, but from everything I've seen Bob was way ahead of his time as a sweet shooting big man. I just don't find too many guys from that era who could really stretch the floor, let alone from the center spot. But he also had a nice inside game too, and could even dribble a bit on fast breaks. Just a super talented dude.

The downside is he was a bit of a fish out of water at times defensively. Kind of an old school Amare in a sense, though much better compared to his era imo (edit: Dirk might even be a better comp). Same short lived prime as Amare. Maybe others who have watched him more might chime in. I don't pretend to have seen enough of that era to truly comment intelligently but I think he's worthy of at least some discussion here.

[trelos6]

5- i am probably leaning on luka, butler or Mcgrady here. Need to watch more film on t-mac and consider this more, maybe they could go above reggie

Crap, I totally forgot about Jimmy Butler. Yeah, I need to figure out where he sits in the mix here; it's time to at least consider him a little.

I am more surprised nobody has even mentioned 2016 draymond yet

At this stage of the project a dpoy defender with strong passing and jumpshooting (that single year) is quite the player

A negative defender that is not quite among the best offensive players ever (but close) in barkley is already in a while ago. 2016 draymond defense may not be quite as impactful as barkley offense but is close enough that his positive offense may close the gap

Another impact monster year in a unusual profile/style is manu ginobili in 2005, and there is always mutombo and his outlier defensive impact metrics

I had Draymond as my first ballot.

[Proxy]

1. 2003 Tracy McGrady
2. 1990 Patrick Ewing
3. 2022 Joel Embiid

Don't reallt have the time to add much on Embiid but his passing improvements this year were strong enough for me to be comfortable with him in this range, I think he was mostly comparable, arguably better, than some of the players voted in this tier on a per possession basis already even as early as 2021 maybe.

Obv insane impact indicators in the RS and the biggest problem being how to weigh his PS injuries for me(second being defensive consistency in the RS prolly?, hard to say how it holds up in the PS but I think he's fairly fine when healthy). Though I did vote CP3 in fairly high so ig it's appropriate to have him in here.

Next vote from me will be between Frazier or Doncić I think, pretty much a tie with Embiid. Really didn't know who to go with 3rd here - other two talked about already

[LA Bird]

Here are the results for round 33

Winner: 90 Ewing

There were 8 voters in this round: Samurai, AEnigma, trex_8063, trelos6, OhayoKD, capfan33, falcolombardi, Proxy

A total of 28 seasons received at least 1 vote: 03 McGrady, 09 Howard, 11 Howard, 16 Green, 16 Westbrook, 17 Westbrook, 20 Doncic, 21 Doncic, 21 Embiid, 22 Doncic, 22 Embiid, 58 Pettit, 59 Pettit, 61 Baylor, 62 Baylor, 62 Pettit, 75 Gilmore, 90 Ewing, 91 Pippen, 92 Pippen, 94 Ewing, 94 Miller, 94 Pippen, 95 Pippen, 96 Hardaway, 96 Pippen, 97 Hill, 98 Miller

Top 10 seasons: 03 McGrady, 90 Ewing, 11 Howard, 22 Embiid, 94 Pippen, 96 Pippen, 21 Embiid, 75 Gilmore, 17 Westbrook, 94 Ewing

H2H record (1 season per player)
90 Ewing: 0.780 (32-9)
03 McGrady: 0.756 (31-10)
11 Howard: 0.500 (17-17)
22 Embiid: 0.500 (17-17)
94 Pippen: 0.303 (10-23)
17 Westbrook: 0.241 (7-22)
75 Gilmore: 0.233 (7-23)