Training camp thread 22/23

[Nick K]

Honestly, Moore needs the G minutes more than Minott. He looked slow, out of sorts, and bad in the Summer League. I am not saying he is a bad player. Plenty of good players have a bad first summer league. I am saying that he is surprisingly raw for a 21 year old, and would greatly benefit from a year in the G. The G is great for guys who need help to refine their game while also adjusting to the NBA pace. I feel Culver was sabotaged by being tossed into the deep end without learning to swim, and I think he is far from the only player to have that happen. Basketball is a mental and confidence thing before anything else. Moore and Minott will both probably be rotation players next year, but should not this year. I don’t care when they were drafted.

It seems to me that Moore's game is a little like Slo-Mo in that it's on the deliberate side. It's just the way he is. He's effective and versatile too. I do get what you're getting at.

Culver still surprises me a bit. He was just bad and still is today. I think he just got a training camp invite with Atlanta and a 2 way deal. I wanted to give him every chance but I don't think he'll ever get it. If the Wolves gave up on him that's good enough for me.

Slo-Mo on offense is fine, slow on defense is a liability. I loved KBD, but he was half a step too slow, and because of that he is 3rd string. Moore might be faster than he showed. If that is true, it was the adjustment to summer league that slowed him down. All the more reason for some time in the G to help him adjust.

Culver is/was a bust. But I do believe he would have been better today if he spent time in the G and adjusted to the NBA in a lower pressure environment. I believe Culver’s problems are at least somewhat mental, and we bare some responsibility for that situation.

It's a reasonable explanation. What else could it be? The G League couldn't hurt. It looks like he's headed there with Atlanta. I wish the kid well.

[Klomp]

Moore and Minott will spend time in Iowa. They will also spend valuable time at Target Center and on the road with the team, learning and soaking up what it means to be a pro. Meaningful time on the floor will likely only come in injury or rest, but their time will likely come around at some time. How they respond will likely determine how much more time they get down the road.

[winforlose]

Moore and Minott will spend time in Iowa. They will also spend valuable time at Target Center and on the road with the team, learning and soaking up what it means to be a pro. Meaningful time on the floor will likely only come in injury or rest, but their time will likely come around at some time. How they respond will likely determine how much more time they get down the road.

Do you agree that Minott is best at the SF? I could see him and MCD giving 48 solid minutes next year. High energy defense, corner 3 point shooting, and drive and kick. I am very excited for Minott next year.

[karch34]

I like Minot but old school in my SF evaluation that you need some ball handling skills which was why I wasn’t big on Vando there. That said D and energy might be enough if the 3 is decent.

[winforlose]

I like Minot but old school in my SF evaluation that you need some ball handling skills which was why I wasn’t big on Vando there. That said D and energy might be enough if the 3 is decent.

Did you watch summer league? The kid has a handle? I honestly think in a couple years he might have as good a handle as MCD, or close to it.

[SO_MONEY]

I like Minot but old school in my SF evaluation that you need some ball handling skills which was why I wasn’t big on Vando there. That said D and energy might be enough if the 3 is decent.

Did you watch summer league? The kid has a handle? I honestly think in a couple years he might have as good a handle as MCD, or close to it.

He is 20, but his handle isn't up to snuff for a SF, he needs to work on that, but I see him as a 4 long-term so it may not matter.

[BlacJacMac]

Summer league good and NBA backup are very different things. Minott is so raw and has a lot to learn about the fundamentals. He played an average of 14.6 minutes per game in college and only started 5 of 33. This is not a knock on him, I am very high on Minott, and see a bright future with us. But in summer league you could tell he didn’t know how to position himself for a box out, how to read defenses, and a lot of other skills necessary for the next level. He just turned 20 in July. It would be a disservice to him to rush him into the NBA before he builds the skills and confidence to thrive there. Maybe if injury plays a big role he gets some play. But absent injury or extreme superstardom in the G, I really don’t think we see him in competitive minutes. Garbage time, sure, but not when the game is still being contested.

I agree. I love Minott but he needs minutes and he won't get them up here. It would do him a world of good to G league it and play. It may be different for Moore but I think he gets at least some minutes up here because he was a 1st rd pick. He needs the minutes down there too.

It's so great being this deep. What a problem to have.

Honestly, Moore needs the G minutes more than Minott. He looked slow, out of sorts, and bad in the Summer League. I am not saying he is a bad player. Plenty of good players have a bad first summer league. I am saying that he is surprisingly raw for a 21 year old, and would greatly benefit from a year in the G. The G is great for guys who need help to refine their game while also adjusting to the NBA pace. I feel Culver was sabotaged by being tossed into the deep end without learning to swim, and I think he is far from the only player to have that happen. Basketball is a mental and confidence thing before anything else. Moore and Minott will both probably be rotation players next year, but should not this year. I don’t care when they were drafted.

Moore also has a history of being slow to adapt to new levels of basketball. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him struggle in the G League this year until he finds his game.

[winforlose]

I like Minot but old school in my SF evaluation that you need some ball handling skills which was why I wasn’t big on Vando there. That said D and energy might be enough if the 3 is decent.

Did you watch summer league? The kid has a handle? I honestly think in a couple years he might have as good a handle as MCD, or close to it.

He is 20, but his handle isn't up to snuff for a SF, he needs to work on that, but I see him as a 4 long-term so it may not matter.

Even if it is not, I would add the word YET. I don’t think it is that far behind MCD. Again watch him handle in Summer League.

[KGdaBom]

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I'm of the firm belief that Minott will play a meaningful minute or more this season.

Summer league good and NBA backup are very different things. Minott is so raw and has a lot to learn about the fundamentals. He played an average of 14.6 minutes per game in college and only started 5 of 33. This is not a knock on him, I am very high on Minott, and see a bright future with us. But in summer league you could tell he didn’t know how to position himself for a box out, how to read defenses, and a lot of other skills necessary for the next level. He just turned 20 in July. It would be a disservice to him to rush him into the NBA before he builds the skills and confidence to thrive there. Maybe if injury plays a big role he gets some play. But absent injury or extreme superstardom in the G, I really don’t think we see him in competitive minutes. Garbage time, sure, but not when the game is still being contested.

I stand by my statement. Minott will play at least one meaningful minute for the Wolves this year. Possibly more.

[KGdaBom]

Minott is the steal of the 2022 draft.

I'd like to think so, but it depends on how you define it. If Paolo Banchero becomes an all star and Josh Minott becomes a reserve who was the bigger steal?

Any player drafted in the top 3 or maybe even the top 5 cannot be a steal. Steals are usually non lottery players that should have gone in the lottery. It is especially impressive when you find that guy in the 2nd round.

I would disagree with you. Lamelo Ball who I was not a fan of in the draft went third and has most definitely been a steal. Ant and KAT went first, but exceeded what many first overall picks have done. I consider them steals also. Then you get into incredible steals like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Kareen Abdul Jabbar. There was no guaranty when they were drafted that they would be all time greats, but they were. KG went 5th. He was a steal.

[KGdaBom]

I'm of the firm belief that Minott will play a meaningful minute or more this season.

Summer league good and NBA backup are very different things. Minott is so raw and has a lot to learn about the fundamentals. He played an average of 14.6 minutes per game in college and only started 5 of 33. This is not a knock on him, I am very high on Minott, and see a bright future with us. But in summer league you could tell he didn’t know how to position himself for a box out, how to read defenses, and a lot of other skills necessary for the next level. He just turned 20 in July. It would be a disservice to him to rush him into the NBA before he builds the skills and confidence to thrive there. Maybe if injury plays a big role he gets some play. But absent injury or extreme superstardom in the G, I really don’t think we see him in competitive minutes. Garbage time, sure, but not when the game is still being contested.

I agree. I love Minott but he needs minutes and he won't get them up here. It would do him a world of good to G league it and play. It may be different for Moore but I think he gets at least some minutes up here because he was a 1st rd pick. He needs the minutes down there too.

It's so great being this deep. What a problem to have.

I stand by my statement. Minott will play at least one meaningful minute with the NBA Wolves and possibly more.

[winforlose]

I'd like to think so, but it depends on how you define it. If Paolo Banchero becomes an all star and Josh Minott becomes a reserve who was the bigger steal?

Any player drafted in the top 3 or maybe even the top 5 cannot be a steal. Steals are usually non lottery players that should have gone in the lottery. It is especially impressive when you find that guy in the 2nd round.

I would disagree with you. Lamelo Ball who I was not a fan of in the draft went third and has most definitely been a steal. Ant and KAT went first, but exceeded what many first overall picks have done. I consider them steals also. Then you get into incredible steals like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Kareen Abdul Jabbar. There was no guaranty when they were drafted that they would be all time greats, but they were. KG went 5th. He was a steal.

A steal is usually found money. Andrew Wiggins could never be a steal, but he could be a bust. There was legit talk that Ball could go first overall. If Ant said don’t draft me and Ball said please draft me, that would have happened. The concept of a steal is that the guy is significantly better than expectations as demonstrated by where he was drafted. Every first, second, and third should be all stars. They can be busts, often at least one of them is, but they cannot be steals. They cannot exceed expectations because the expectation is that they will be stars.

[KGdaBom]

Any player drafted in the top 3 or maybe even the top 5 cannot be a steal. Steals are usually non lottery players that should have gone in the lottery. It is especially impressive when you find that guy in the 2nd round.

I would disagree with you. Lamelo Ball who I was not a fan of in the draft went third and has most definitely been a steal. Ant and KAT went first, but exceeded what many first overall picks have done. I consider them steals also. Then you get into incredible steals like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Kareen Abdul Jabbar. There was no guaranty when they were drafted that they would be all time greats, but they were. KG went 5th. He was a steal.

A steal is usually found money. Andrew Wiggins could never be a steal, but he could be a bust. There was legit talk that Ball could go first overall. If Ant said don’t draft me and Ball said please draft me, that would have happened. The concept of a steal is that the guy is significantly better than expectations as demonstrated by where he was drafted. Every first, second, and third should be all stars. They can be busts, often at least one of them is, but they cannot be steals. They cannot exceed expectations because the expectation is that they will be stars.

I get where you are coming from, but I disagree with where you're coming from. I expect top picks to be stars and maybe first overall picks to be big stars. I don't think it's fair to expect them to be all time greats or superstars.

It's all a matter of how you define steal. I define it by the expected return on average from that pick. If Wiggins turned out to be the next MJ I don't care that he was drafted first. He was still a steal. If he had turned out say as good as Donovan Mitchell I'd say that was about right. How he actually turned out was very poor return on investment. Their is no right or wrong answer to this until we have an accepted definition of the word steal as it applies to the NBA draft.

[Klomp]

The roster cuts are a really tough call. I think Knight will be out. I'd try to keep him in Iowa. Somehow I think Rivers, Forbes and Dozier make it too. Lawson and Elleby could be in trouble too.

Dozier has nice size and can do a lot of good things except shoot. He'd still be worth keeping.

Rivers can play the point in a pinch and is a streaky shooter.

It should be fun as hell seeing how it all plays out.

Go Wolves!

I am sorry, but I must disagree. There is no way we can cut a big for another guard. We already have Ant, Dlo, JMAC, Nowell, Forbes, Rivers, Moore, and Lawson as a two way. That is 8 out of 17. To make it 9 would leave us with 8 players to play the SF, PF, and C. Ideally you would like each position to be 3 deep, and your suggestion leaves one position 2 deep. If Knight is cut or traded he will be replaced by a big. If Dozier makes the team it will likely be at the expense of Rivers or Forbes (Rives is not fully guaranteed, and not a shooting specialist like Forbes.) Moreover, Finch talked about using Forbes in a small ball lineup for shooting and spacing. I don’t see him being moved unless he has a terrible camp and probably preseason as well.

I don't count Moore or Lawson into the backcourt numbers, just like I don't count Paschall, Minott or even Knight into the frontcourt numbers. These are guys on the deep end of the bench and most of them will spend a lot of time with Iowa.

Backcourt: Russell, Edwards, McLaughlin, Nowell, Rivers
Froncourt: Gobert, Towns, McDaniels, Anderson, Prince, Reid

The frontcourt has more established players all the way through who have proven to handle big workloads. If someone leaves the game, their load will shift to another player listed above, not deeper in the bench. Most of the depth in the backcourt has only proven itself with smaller workloads. If they leave, there are a lot more questions about who handles what in their place. That's why I'd argue, the greater deep bench need is in the backcourt.

[Klomp]

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[Klomp]

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[winforlose]

The roster cuts are a really tough call. I think Knight will be out. I'd try to keep him in Iowa. Somehow I think Rivers, Forbes and Dozier make it too. Lawson and Elleby could be in trouble too.

Dozier has nice size and can do a lot of good things except shoot. He'd still be worth keeping.

Rivers can play the point in a pinch and is a streaky shooter.

It should be fun as hell seeing how it all plays out.

Go Wolves!

I am sorry, but I must disagree. There is no way we can cut a big for another guard. We already have Ant, Dlo, JMAC, Nowell, Forbes, Rivers, Moore, and Lawson as a two way. That is 8 out of 17. To make it 9 would leave us with 8 players to play the SF, PF, and C. Ideally you would like each position to be 3 deep, and your suggestion leaves one position 2 deep. If Knight is cut or traded he will be replaced by a big. If Dozier makes the team it will likely be at the expense of Rivers or Forbes (Rives is not fully guaranteed, and not a shooting specialist like Forbes.) Moreover, Finch talked about using Forbes in a small ball lineup for shooting and spacing. I don’t see him being moved unless he has a terrible camp and probably preseason as well.

I don't count Moore or Lawson into the backcourt numbers, just like I don't count Paschall, Minott or even Knight into the frontcourt numbers. These are guys on the deep end of the bench and most of them will spend a lot of time with Iowa.

Backcourt: Russell, Edwards, McLaughlin, Nowell, Rivers
Froncourt: Gobert, Towns, McDaniels, Anderson, Prince, Reid

The frontcourt has more established players all the way through who have proven to handle big workloads. If someone leaves the game, their load will shift to another player listed above, not deeper in the bench. Most of the depth in the backcourt has only proven itself with smaller workloads. If they leave, there are a lot more questions about who handles what in their place. That's why I'd argue, the greater deep bench need is in the backcourt.

Last season proved to me, and I hope the coaching staff that Prince cannot play the PF. He is just too small and too weak. I think he will thrive as a backup SF, but I would not count him as a big. Likewise MCD can play PF but not well. His body type is built for a SF. So KAT, Rudy, Naz, and KA are our 4 bigs. If KAT is out for any reason, then Naz becomes Rudy’s backup and KA is the starting PF. The question then becomes who is KA’s backup in that situation. Knight, Paschall, or MCD (not my preference,) fit that bill. If Rudy is out then the same thing happens with KAT moving to the C and KA starting at PF. Again who backs him up. You could run a 3 man rotation with KAT playing with Naz, but the numbers historically don’t like that. Plus I don’t know what KA and Naz look like together. I think our rebounding might be challenging. Bottom line, another PF is necessary, or Naz needs to move to PF and another big plays C. Maybe that big is Garza, but we need to be at least 3 deep at both PF and C, and maybe four deep with a two way.

[Klomp]

It's stupid to keep a 4th-string center on your 15-man roster. That's the type of thing Thibs would do. You're worried about worst-case scenarios here.

It's the same type of what-ifs that NFL teams would do when they had three QBs on the active roster, before the NFL finally initiated the "emergency QB" rule.

[winforlose]

It's stupid to keep a 4th-string center on your 15-man roster. That's the type of thing Thibs would do. You're worried about worst-case scenarios here.

It's the same type of what-ifs that NFL teams would do when they had three QBs on the active roster, before the NFL finally initiated the "emergency QB" rule.

Did I say 4 on the 15? I said 3 deep. KAT, Rudy, Naz are your centers. If one goes down you still have two. If two go down you have a PF step in as backup. If 3 go down you are ****** and you are either in Covid hardship contracts or your season is toast. At PF we have KAT, KA, and X. Either X is Knight who can play emergency C or backup PF, or it is someone else. Paschall as a two way is your fourth string PF, which is useful when your backup C is also your starting PF. In an emergency MCD and Ant can also shift positions. But the logic is sound that you want more than 2 PFs, especially if one is KAT.

[Klomp]

It's stupid to keep a 4th-string center on your 15-man roster. That's the type of thing Thibs would do. You're worried about worst-case scenarios here.

It's the same type of what-ifs that NFL teams would do when they had three QBs on the active roster, before the NFL finally initiated the "emergency QB" rule.

Did I say 4 on the 15? I said 3 deep. KAT, Rudy, Naz are your centers. If one goes down you still have two. If two go down you have a PF step in as backup. If 3 go down you are ****** and you are either in Covid hardship contracts or your season is toast. At PF we have KAT, KA, and X. Either X is Knight who can play emergency C or backup PF, or it is someone else. Paschall as a two way is your fourth string PF, which is useful when your backup C is also your starting PF. In an emergency MCD and Ant can also shift positions. But the logic is sound that you want more than 2 PFs, especially if one is KAT.

You may not like it, but Prince will get his fair share of PF minutes. Reid may get minutes there too.

So at C you have Gobert, Towns and Reid. At PF you have Towns, Anderson, Prince and Reid (and I didn't even mention McDaniels). So at best, in Knight you're worried about saving someone who is 4 deep on the bench at C and might be 6 deep at PF.