Can you make a contender only using players with less than 10ppg career average?

[picc]

I think its hilarious you all think these teams are winning an NBA championship.

[foreigngrammar]

It’s safe to say we‘ve never seen a squad that would be such a force on the defensive end before

[dYYYh.k²]

Mike James averaged 9.9 Points for his career and 20.4 for one season with the raptos. Plug him in at SG

[JN61]

I don't think any of these teams would win championship unless you get extremely favorable matchups like last season's Warriors where you have injured team on every round.

[God Squad]

I don't think any of these teams would win championship unless you get extremely favorable matchups like last season's Warriors where you have injured team on every round.

lol.

[ConSarnit]

I actually think most of these teams miss the playoffs. Their offenses would be so bad.

-bad/terrible pnr offense
-no iso scoring at all
-would never get to the rim or draw fouls
-multiple players you don’t need to guard

If you try to squeeze out enough offense to get by your defense falls off because of the players you’d have to choose.

[Capn'O]

There have been some valiant efforts but I don't think you get past true contenders without an iso threat in the playoffs. It's just a different beast and any true contender has enough defense to neuter these offenses.

15ppg is a different animal.

I feel like this would be a very interesting question at ~15ppg

Let's see...

John Stockton / Jason Kidd / Steve Nash
Manu Ginobili / Michael Cooper / Shane Battier
Andre Igoudala / Jeff Hornacek / Robert Horry
Dennis Rodman / Draymond Green / Lamar Odom
Bill Russell / Bill Walton / Rudy Gobert

Okay, I'm cheating a little bit with Bill Russell. He's a whisker out at 15.1. Parish could slot in.

But this was done very lazily and I'm sure there are many more great choices.

You've also got a number of options here for players that started off as strong scorers and then got injured or something else happened. McDyess, Michael Ray Richardson, Ron Harper. Guys like that.

Making a homer pick with Bill Bradley at SF as well.

[SelfishPlayer]

I don't think any of these teams would win championship unless you get extremely favorable matchups like last season's Warriors where you have injured team on every round.

What!?! The team that I assembled would blow teams off the floor.

PG Dana Barros .411 3pt, Bobby Jackson .354 3pt
SG Hubert Davis .441 3pt, Mario Elie .365 3pt
SF Mike Miller .407 3pt, Kyle Korver .429 3pt
PF Shane Battier .384 3pt James Posey
C Draymond Green, Robert Horry, Marcus Camby

[G35]

Good post.

This highlights how important scoring is compared to everything else. You can talk about defense, rebounding, playmaking, chemistry, coaching, etc, but if you do not have an elite scorer, your team is not going anywhere.

This is why a #1 who is a scorer is more valuable in a vacuum than someone who has great impact stats.

An example would be Carmelo vs Draymond Green.....

[seren]

This is doable only if you can figure out who will be the next TMac or Butler or Kobe. In other words, look for rookie players who didn’t get the minutes but who have HOF potential.

[FreeThrowLine]

As the consensus is that you can't build a team using those guidelines, I've added players up to 12ppg below, which now makes it not only possible, but considering all are at their prime means you'd have to be the favourites

Crazy how just a 2 point increase can allow so much more offensively talented players into the mix.

Also keep in mind I could be missing a number of players as I just went through and searched manually for these guys since I couldn't find a list of all time average scorers in order

My updated team would be

Starters
Arvydas Sabonis
Antonio McDyess
Andrei Kirilenko
Andre Iguodala
Marcus Smart


2nd unit
Joakim Noah
Dennis Rodman
Mikal Bridges
Anfernee Simons
Rajon Rondo


3rd unit
Ben Wallace
Draymond Green
Robert Horry
Tony Allen
Patty Mills

Obviously I wouldn't play them in those lineups necessarily (especially 3rd unit), that's just for the purpose of splitting them into groups to assess the roster visually. I intentionally kept 3 of my best defenders in each unit

It was a tough choice which C to take out to allow Sabonis in, but figured I'd go with mobility so had to cut Dikembe

I decided to split Green, Noah and Sabonis up, to give me a good passing big man on each unit

It was tough deciding whether to replace Korver with Dan Majerle or Anfernee Simons, considering Simmons is still young, but I'm taking a chance on the kid

It was also tough deciding on the final PG spot, there are better players on the list than Mills, but he's a guy I trust to step up in the playoffs when I need a bucket off the bench, so I stuck with him

I believe even with the omission of Mutombo, I'd have the greatest defensive team of all time. Between Allen, Green, Noah, Bridges, Rodman, Wallace, Smart, Kirilenko and Iguodala that's a really tough night for opposing teams and I think this team would set records as far as opponents shooting %'s.


Full list of available players to choose from

Jarrett Allen
OG Anunoby
Trevor Ariza
Avery Bradley
Mikal Bridges
Jalen Brunson
Leandro Barbosa
Nicolas Batum
Lonzo Ball
Dell Curry
Seth Curry
Robert Covington
Calbert Cheaney
Doug Christie
Elden Campbell
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
Vlade Divac
Mike Dunleavy
Antonio Davis
LaPhonso Ellis
Kenneth Faried
Derrick Favors
Raymond Felton
T.J. Ford
Enes Freedom
Drew Gooden
Brian Grant
Horace Grant
Jerami Grant
Danny Green
Chris Gatling
Richaun Holmes
Roy Hibbert
Nenê
Kirk Hinrich
George Hill
Kevin Huerter
Jay Humphries
Gary Harris
Joe Harris
Devin Harris
Matt Harpring
Andre Iguodala
Ersan İlyasova
Vinnie Johnson
Mike James
Jerome Kersey
Andrei Kirilenko
Toni Kukoč
Raef LaFrentz
Voshon Lenard
Darius Miles
Derrick McKey
Antonio McDyess
Markieff Morris
Brad Miller
Mike Miller
Terry Mills
Donyell Marshall
Anthony Mason
Dan Majerle
Jameer Nelson
Andrés Nocioni
Otto Porter Jr.
Tayshaun Prince
Terrence Ross
Ricky Rubio
Quentin Richardson
Anfernee Simons
Joe Smith
Marcus Smart
Scott Skiles
Luis Scola
Dario Šarić
Arvydas Sabonis
Tim Thomas
Hedo Türkoğlu
Norm Van Lier
Charlie Villanueva
Clarence Weatherspoon
Gerald Wallace
AC Green
Ronnie Brewer
Bruce Bowen
Tyson Chandler
Marcus Camby
PJ Brown
Alex Caruso
Michael Cooper
Jae Crowder
Bobby Jackson
Mark Jackson
Dale Davis
Hubert Davis
Mario Elie
Taj Gibson
JaMychal Green
Udonis Haslem
Joe Ingles
Avery Johnson
Shaun Livingstone
Nate McMillan
Jamaal Magloire
Charles Oakley
Greg Oden
James Posey
Gary Payton II
Theo Ratliff
Lance Stephenson
Thabo Sefolosha
Raja Bell
Brandon Bass
DeMarre Carroll
José Calderón
Michael Cage
Tony Delk
Dale Davis
Samuel Dalembert
Dorian Finney-Smith
Marcin Gortat
Eddie House
DeAndre Jordan
Nenad Krstić
C.J. Miles
John Salmons
Jamaal Tinsley
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Joakim Noah
Dennis Rodman
Draymond Green
Boris Diaw
Robert Horry
Shane Battier
PJ Tucker
Marco Belinelli
Tony Allen
Kyle Korver
Rajon Rondo
Derek Fisher
Patty Mills

[WillyJakkz]

There have been some valiant efforts but I don't think you get past true contenders without an iso threat in the playoffs. It's just a different beast and any true contender has enough defense to neuter these offenses.

Good post.

This highlights how important scoring is compared to everything else. You can talk about defense, rebounding, playmaking, chemistry, coaching, etc, but if you do not have an elite scorer, your team is not going anywhere.

This is why a #1 who is a scorer is more valuable in a vacuum than someone who has great impact stats.

An example would be Carmelo vs Draymond Green.....

I agree mostly. This is why the only 10ppg player I could think of who had the tools and skills (primarily in FIBA) that could potentially be an iso scoring threat was Rudy Fernandez.

Spanish Mamba definitely could hoop it didn't translate too well in Portland I believe mainly to team structure.

And Bucks Bogut would keep defenses honest as he could score and at least be some type of threat offensively vs today's Embiid Jokic Giannis.

Mostly I'd just hope ball movement with the collection of players and passers I have would be key in running SSOL.

Thread title was build contender not champ so I think we have a "contender" at least PO team?

[WillyJakkz]

As the consensus is that you can't build a team using those guidelines, I've added players up to 12ppg below, which now makes it not only possible, but considering all are at their prime means you'd have to be the favourites

Crazy how just a 2 point increase can allow so much more offensively talented players into the mix.

Also keep in mind I could be missing a number of players as I just went through and searched manually for these guys since I couldn't find a list of all time average scorers in order

My updated team would be

Starters
Arvydas Sabonis
Antonio McDyess
Andrei Kirilenko
Andre Iguodala
Marcus Smart


2nd unit
Joakim Noah
Dennis Rodman
Mikal Bridges
Anfernee Simons
Rajon Rondo


3rd unit
Ben Wallace
Draymond Green
Robert Horry
Tony Allen
Patty Mills

It was a tough choice which C to take out to allow Sabonis in, but figured I'd go with mobility so had to cut Dikembe

I decided to split Green, Noah and Sabonis up, to give me a good passing big man on each unit

It was tough deciding whether to replace Korver with Dan Majerle or Anfernee Simons, considering Simmons is still young, but I'm taking a chance on the kid

It was also tough deciding on the final PG spot, there are better players on the list than Mills, but he's a guy I trust to step up in the playoffs when I need a bucket off the bench, so I stuck with him

I believe even with the omission of Mutombo, I'd have the greatest defensive team of all time. Between Allen, Green, Noah, Bridges, Rodman, Wallace, Smart, Kirilenko and Iguodala that's a really tough night for opposing teams and I think this team would set records as far as opponents shooting %'s.

I intentionally kept 3 of these guys in each unit, obviously basketball isn't played in units with 5 man subs, but just for the purpose of showing potential lineups.


Full list of available players to choose from

Jarrett Allen
OG Anunoby
Trevor Ariza
Avery Bradley
Mikal Bridges
Jalen Brunson
Leandro Barbosa
Nicolas Batum
Lonzo Ball
Dell Curry
Seth Curry
Robert Covington
Calbert Cheaney
Doug Christie
Elden Campbell
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
Vlade Divac
Mike Dunleavy
Antonio Davis
LaPhonso Ellis
Kenneth Faried
Derrick Favors
Raymond Felton
T.J. Ford
Enes Freedom
Drew Gooden
Brian Grant
Horace Grant
Jerami Grant
Danny Green
Chris Gatling
Richaun Holmes
Roy Hibbert
Nenê
Kirk Hinrich
George Hill
Kevin Huerter
Jay Humphries
Gary Harris
Joe Harris
Devin Harris
Matt Harpring
Andre Iguodala
Ersan İlyasova
Vinnie Johnson
Mike James
Jerome Kersey
Andrei Kirilenko
Toni Kukoč
Raef LaFrentz
Voshon Lenard
Darius Miles
Derrick McKey
Antonio McDyess
Markieff Morris
Brad Miller
Mike Miller
Terry Mills
Donyell Marshall
Anthony Mason
Dan Majerle
Jameer Nelson
Andrés Nocioni
Otto Porter Jr.
Tayshaun Prince
Terrence Ross
Ricky Rubio
Quentin Richardson
Anfernee Simons
Joe Smith
Marcus Smart
Scott Skiles
Luis Scola
Dario Šarić
Arvydas Sabonis
Tim Thomas
Hedo Türkoğlu
Norm Van Lier
Charlie Villanueva
Clarence Weatherspoon
Gerald Wallace
AC Green
Ronnie Brewer
Bruce Bowen
Tyson Chandler
Marcus Camby
PJ Brown
Alex Caruso
Michael Cooper
Jae Crowder
Bobby Jackson
Mark Jackson
Dale Davis
Hubert Davis
Mario Elie
Taj Gibson
JaMychal Green
Udonis Haslem
Joe Ingles
Avery Johnson
Shaun Livingstone
Nate McMillan
Jamaal Magloire
Charles Oakley
Greg Oden
James Posey
Gary Payton II
Theo Ratliff
Lance Stephenson
Thabo Sefolosha
Raja Bell
Brandon Bass
DeMarre Carroll
José Calderón
Michael Cage
Tony Delk
Dale Davis
Samuel Dalembert
Dorian Finney-Smith
Marcin Gortat
Eddie House
DeAndre Jordan
Nenad Krstić
C.J. Miles
John Salmons
Jamaal Tinsley
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Joakim Noah
Dennis Rodman
Draymond Green
Boris Diaw
Robert Horry
Shane Battier
PJ Tucker
Marco Belinelli
Tony Allen
Kyle Korver
Rajon Rondo
Derek Fisher
Patty Mills

No fun now you shouldn't have caved in to the pressure.

Just glancing at that list it's much easier to build a contender.

[FreeThrowLine]

No fun now you shouldn't have caved in to the pressure.

Just glancing at that list it's much easier to build a contender.

It wasn't any pressure, I genuinely was looking to see if it could be done and from my own initial list, I wasn't convinced, so it was more an exercise to see how high I'd need to go in order to create a team that would be favourite.

I just thought it would be interesting to see what kind of a difference opening up the field with small increments would make and it only took an increase of an additional 2 point average to do it

[Zeus LA]

This is my shot based on the original rules:

C: Bogut/Mutumbo/Camby
PF: Wallace/Rodman/Green
SF: Korver/Kyle Anderson/Tracy Murray
SG: Morrow/Lance Stevenson/Kennard
PG: Rondo/Mills/Mark Jackson

Not a contender IMO. Hard to create a balanced team. Frontline D should be stellar.
Keys for me are Bogut's offensive development pre-injury and squeezing 3s and scoring from the wings.

[MrGoat]

10 is pretty difficult

PG - 1989 Mark Jackson
SG - have Kyle Korver launch 3s like never before
SF - 2015 Lance Stephenson
PF - 1994 AC Green
C - 2016 Draymond Green

That's about as much scoring as I can get on there and I still think it falls short

[FlyingArrow]

10 is pretty difficult

PG - 1989 Mark Jackson
SG - have Kyle Korver launch 3s like never before
SF - 2015 Lance Stephenson
PF - 1994 AC Green
C - 2016 Draymond Green

That's about as much scoring as I can get on there and I still think it falls short

You need to include a whole roster to have a chance. The 10ppg limit means you're never going to have a starting lineup that beats a championship caliber roster. But the rules set out here give the advantage in the bench. You get 9 all-star caliber players at PG, PF, and C. There are plenty of all-star options to choose from at those 3 positions. Distribution and post defense are covered in spades. The you add in good (but not all-star level) 3pt shooting at the wings, who are also good defenders. By getting the offensive peak of all those players, and with all-star level ball distribution, the offense is fine. And the defense, of course, will be stellar without even trying. Your starting lineup won't be quite as good as a championship starting lineup, but your bench will absolutely destroy opposing benches.

[Lalouie]

the whole point of role players is that they play a role for the stars

the whole point of role players is that "THEY" are the ones people talk about when people say the lebrons of the world make "players" better

you are asking for quantity not quality and that is simply a no-go in sports

[og15]

10 is pretty difficult

PG - 1989 Mark Jackson
SG - have Kyle Korver launch 3s like never before
SF - 2015 Lance Stephenson
PF - 1994 AC Green
C - 2016 Draymond Green

That's about as much scoring as I can get on there and I still think it falls short

You need to include a whole roster to have a chance. The 10ppg limit means you're never going to have a starting lineup that beats a championship caliber roster. But the rules set out here give the advantage in the bench. You get 9 all-star caliber players at PG, PF, and C. There are plenty of all-star options to choose from at those 3 positions. Distribution and post defense are covered in spades. The you add in good (but not all-star level) 3pt shooting at the wings, who are also good defenders. By getting the offensive peak of all those players, and with all-star level ball distribution, the offense is fine. And the defense, of course, will be stellar without even trying. Your starting lineup won't be quite as good as a championship starting lineup, but your bench will absolutely destroy opposing benches.

Yea the bench is what gives these teams a chance. They can definitely be good in the regular season. In the playoffs, bench still matters but more so when starting lineups are even or close. The starting lineups here will defend, but against the stronger teams, keeping up offensively will be hard, so their bench would many times have to make up deficits, and then opponents will play starters more in the playoffs which gives their bench units less time against other benches.

[Richard4444]

It's easy to build an under 12 career point roster

Brunson/Afernee Simons/Tyus Jones/Monte Morris
OG Anourby/Smart/KCP/Seth Curry
Mikal Bridges/Kuminga/Otto Porter
Draymond Green/Jerami Grant/Robert Covington
Jarret Alen/Time Lord/Sengun/Wiseman

Over 10 PPG players are in bold.

It's hard to build an under 10 career point team:

Tyus Jones/Tre Jones
Melton/Grayson Allen
Kuminga/Herbert Jones
Draymond Green/Obi Toppin
Adams/Sengun/TimeLord