Training camp thread 22/23

[Klomp]

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[winforlose]

It's stupid to keep a 4th-string center on your 15-man roster. That's the type of thing Thibs would do. You're worried about worst-case scenarios here.

It's the same type of what-ifs that NFL teams would do when they had three QBs on the active roster, before the NFL finally initiated the "emergency QB" rule.

Did I say 4 on the 15? I said 3 deep. KAT, Rudy, Naz are your centers. If one goes down you still have two. If two go down you have a PF step in as backup. If 3 go down you are ****** and you are either in Covid hardship contracts or your season is toast. At PF we have KAT, KA, and X. Either X is Knight who can play emergency C or backup PF, or it is someone else. Paschall as a two way is your fourth string PF, which is useful when your backup C is also your starting PF. In an emergency MCD and Ant can also shift positions. But the logic is sound that you want more than 2 PFs, especially if one is KAT.

You may not like it, but Prince will get his fair share of PF minutes. Reid may get minutes there too.

So at C you have Gobert, Towns and Reid. At PF you have Towns, Anderson, Prince and Reid (and I didn't even mention McDaniels). So at best, in Knight you're worried about saving someone who is 4 deep on the bench at C and might be 6 deep at PF.

Follow the logic on this. If Prince is playing PF who is playing backup SF. You could shift Ant but that means less time at SG. You could use Lawson, but he would need to prove a lot in both practice and the G before that happens. Moore and Minott could both do it, but frankly that isn’t a good answer. Prince is way too important to SF to move to PF. The other issue is how many injuries are we accounting for. Deep bench is never ideal. If MCD sprains an ankle and KA gets the flu and misses a week than what is the rotation? Dlo, Ant, Prince, KAT, Rudy. Then JMAC, Nowell, ?, Naz, Rudy/KAT. Or instead of Naz you get Knight. Prince and MCD are both unavailable, and this isn’t even mentioning foul trouble. We play an extremely aggressive defense that is great for generating steals, deflections, ect…, but also leads to a high foul rate. Depth matters.

[SO_MONEY]

Did you watch summer league? The kid has a handle? I honestly think in a couple years he might have as good a handle as MCD, or close to it.

He is 20, but his handle isn't up to snuff for a SF, he needs to work on that, but I see him as a 4 long-term so it may not matter.

Even if it is not, I would add the word YET. I don’t think it is that far behind MCD. Again watch him handle in Summer League.

I watched him, his handle is a clear weakness. He wasn't even close to MCD and that is before his improvement. Give him time we will see if he develops.

[Klomp]

Did I say 4 on the 15? I said 3 deep. KAT, Rudy, Naz are your centers. If one goes down you still have two. If two go down you have a PF step in as backup. If 3 go down you are ****** and you are either in Covid hardship contracts or your season is toast. At PF we have KAT, KA, and X. Either X is Knight who can play emergency C or backup PF, or it is someone else. Paschall as a two way is your fourth string PF, which is useful when your backup C is also your starting PF. In an emergency MCD and Ant can also shift positions. But the logic is sound that you want more than 2 PFs, especially if one is KAT.

You may not like it, but Prince will get his fair share of PF minutes. Reid may get minutes there too.

So at C you have Gobert, Towns and Reid. At PF you have Towns, Anderson, Prince and Reid (and I didn't even mention McDaniels). So at best, in Knight you're worried about saving someone who is 4 deep on the bench at C and might be 6 deep at PF.

Follow the logic on this. If Prince is playing PF who is playing backup SF. You could shift Ant but that means less time at SG. You could use Lawson, but he would need to prove a lot in both practice and the G before that happens. Moore and Minott could both do it, but frankly that isn’t a good answer. Prince is way too important to SF to move to PF. The other issue is how many injuries are we accounting for. Deep bench is never ideal. If MCD sprains an ankle and KA gets the flu and misses a week than what is the rotation? Dlo, Ant, Prince, KAT, Rudy. Then JMAC, Nowell, ?, Naz, Rudy/KAT. Or instead of Naz you get Knight. Prince and MCD are both unavailable, and this isn’t even mentioning foul trouble. We play an extremely aggressive defense that is great for generating steals, deflections, ect…, but also leads to a high foul rate. Depth matters.

You are overthinking this way too much, but yet at the same time boxing the players in and boxing in Finch believing that they can't figure out a solution.

Lineups are not rigid. Prince at PF doesn't mean there's a hole at backup SF. It means he's a versatile basketball player who can play both positions. There will probably be a lot of three guard lineups.

[Zonarosa]

you get yourself way, way too caught up in these strict positional assignments. with the versatility we have, it'll likely be matchup dependent and change game to game. this isn't the 90's. it's just guards, wings and bigs these days.

[winforlose]

You may not like it, but Prince will get his fair share of PF minutes. Reid may get minutes there too.

So at C you have Gobert, Towns and Reid. At PF you have Towns, Anderson, Prince and Reid (and I didn't even mention McDaniels). So at best, in Knight you're worried about saving someone who is 4 deep on the bench at C and might be 6 deep at PF.

Follow the logic on this. If Prince is playing PF who is playing backup SF. You could shift Ant but that means less time at SG. You could use Lawson, but he would need to prove a lot in both practice and the G before that happens. Moore and Minott could both do it, but frankly that isn’t a good answer. Prince is way too important to SF to move to PF. The other issue is how many injuries are we accounting for. Deep bench is never ideal. If MCD sprains an ankle and KA gets the flu and misses a week than what is the rotation? Dlo, Ant, Prince, KAT, Rudy. Then JMAC, Nowell, ?, Naz, Rudy/KAT. Or instead of Naz you get Knight. Prince and MCD are both unavailable, and this isn’t even mentioning foul trouble. We play an extremely aggressive defense that is great for generating steals, deflections, ect…, but also leads to a high foul rate. Depth matters.

You are overthinking this way too much, but yet at the same time boxing the players in and boxing in Finch believing that they can't figure out a solution.

Lineups are not rigid. Prince at PF doesn't mean there's a hole at backup SF. It means he's a versatile basketball player who can play both positions. There will probably be a lot of three guard lineups.

Britt and Dane have talked about how weak Prince looked on defense at the PF. I agree 100% and had upset by it all season last year. He is supposed to be a defensive specialist X but is clearly too small to play the position. I expect a great season from Prince at the SF where his size and strength will be more equal to his opponents. JO couldn’t guard PFs for the same reason.

As for your response about a hole at SF, there are only so many minutes a guy can play. Add foul trouble to that and you start to approach the complexity of NBA rotations. We have Minott and Moore both taking a roster space but both not being ready for a real role upstairs. They will likely spend time with the big club but play in all the G league games. That leaves 13 guys and 2 two ways to handle the rotation. Ideally you are 3 deep in each spot. Now you are correct that guys can play out of their position, for example Nowell playing PG or Ant playing SF. But that usually means promoting someone from the bench to that spot. For example with Ant at SF Nowell gets more minutes at SG, or with Nowell at PG Forbes get minutes at SG (or Rivers, or Lawson, depending on depth chart.) I don’t know why you think this is controversial?

[Klomp]

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[winforlose]

you get yourself way, way too caught up in these strict positional assignments. with the versatility we have, it'll likely be matchup dependent and change game to game. this isn't the 90's. it's just guards, wings and bigs these days.

That is easy to say, but like Finch said “you are what you can guard.” If you believe Prince can guard PF, then so be it. I don’t, most of the Minnesota beat writers don’t, and if you go back and really watch him on defense last year, you won’t either. JO couldn’t guard PFs, and JMAC cannot guard SFs. The positions PG, SG, SF, ect… have been relevant on offense for a long time. If you look back on this board I have said so many times. MCD cannot effectively guard PFs without getting fouls or beat inside because he isn’t strong enough. V8 had the same problem. On offense V8 was a C, but on defense he was out of position at PF, he is like MCD, a classic tall and long SF.

[winforlose]

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This could easily be the best two man pairing in the NBA. An excellent PNR PG with the best PNR big in the league. Gonna be a lot of fun to watch.

[winforlose]

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This could easily be the best two man pairing in the NBA. An excellent PNR PG with the best PNR big in the league. Gonna be a lot of fun to watch.

[BlacJacMac]

you get yourself way, way too caught up in these strict positional assignments. with the versatility we have, it'll likely be matchup dependent and change game to game. this isn't the 90's. it's just guards, wings and bigs these days.

That is easy to say, but like Finch said “you are what you can guard.” If you believe Prince can guard PF, then so be it. I don’t, most of the Minnesota beat writers don’t, and if you go back and really watch him on defense last year, you won’t either. JO couldn’t guard PFs, and JMAC cannot guard SFs. The positions PG, SG, SF, ect… have been relevant on offense for a long time. If you look back on this board I have said so many times. MCD cannot effectively guard PFs without getting fouls or beat inside because he isn’t strong enough. V8 had the same problem. On offense V8 was a C, but on defense he was out of position at PF, he is like MCD, a classic tall and long SF.

Even as a rookie, he was, by far, our best defender against Luka, Kawhi and even Zion.

My favorite moment from his rookie year was when Zion was just abusing Vando. Tossing him around like he was a child. Then we put in Jaden and Zion just couldn't bully him - at all. He held his ground and frustrated the hell out of him.

For a skinny guy, Jaden is surprisingly stout and difficult to move - "skinny strong".

I imagine he'll generally play with 2 guys bigger than him, but I won't be shocked at all if he sees a decent amount of time as the "2nd big".

[winforlose]

you get yourself way, way too caught up in these strict positional assignments. with the versatility we have, it'll likely be matchup dependent and change game to game. this isn't the 90's. it's just guards, wings and bigs these days.

That is easy to say, but like Finch said “you are what you can guard.” If you believe Prince can guard PF, then so be it. I don’t, most of the Minnesota beat writers don’t, and if you go back and really watch him on defense last year, you won’t either. JO couldn’t guard PFs, and JMAC cannot guard SFs. The positions PG, SG, SF, ect… have been relevant on offense for a long time. If you look back on this board I have said so many times. MCD cannot effectively guard PFs without getting fouls or beat inside because he isn’t strong enough. V8 had the same problem. On offense V8 was a C, but on defense he was out of position at PF, he is like MCD, a classic tall and long SF.

Even as a rookie, he was, by far, our best defender against Luka, Kawhi and even Zion.

My favorite moment from his rookie year was when Zion was just abusing Vando. Tossing him around like he was a child. Then we put in Jaden and Zion just couldn't bully him - at all. He held his ground and frustrated the hell out of him.

For a skinny guy, Jaden is surprisingly stout and difficult to move - "skinny strong".

I imagine he'll generally play with 2 guys bigger than him, but I won't be shocked at all if he sees a decent amount of time as the "2nd big".

Finch was asked about that, I believe in part 3 of the Minn post interview, and he said MCD is a SF and will stay there. In an emergency he might play PF, but Finch has seen plenty of MCD at PF and decided he is more effective guarding smaller players.

Edit to add: Minnpost interview 3 with Britt and Finch

“MP: Do you ever see him bumping up from the 3 position? I know you were intrigued with him at the 4 before sometimes.

CF: No, I think if he can excel at the 3, we can become extremely different, with all that length.”

https://www.minnpost.com/sports/2022/09/how-will-the-revamped-timberwolves-meld-on-the-court/

[Klomp]

For one example, I bet we'll see lineups that go Russell/Edwards/McDaniels/Prince/Gobert. You may be worried about Prince's defense at the 4 but that's why you play him with others who are good defenders to cover up those weaknesses.

[BlacJacMac]

For one example, I bet we'll see lineups that go Russell/Edwards/McDaniels/Prince/Gobert. You may be worried about Prince's defense at the 4 but that's why you play him with others who are good defenders to cover up those weaknesses.

And at that point you really don't have a 3 and a 4. You just have 2 forwards.

[winforlose]

For one example, I bet we'll see lineups that go Russell/Edwards/McDaniels/Prince/Gobert. You may be worried about Prince's defense at the 4 but that's why you play him with others who are good defenders to cover up those weaknesses.

Finch was talking about a small ball lineup with KAT at the 5 and Forbes at the 2. I heard somewhere (I think from either Dane or Doogie,) that KA might get some small ball run at the 5 situationally. In the event we do run small to counter a small lineup Prince might be in that lineup, but he wouldn’t be a guarding a PF, he would be guarding a SF playing PF. I agree 100% with Finch, and everyone else who says “You are what you can defend.” I have no problem with multi position players like Dlo who played both PG and SG last year. What I mind is playing smaller players against guys they are not big enough or strong enough to defend. We need a reserve of bigs who when necessary can use their size and strength to defend opponent bigs. That is not Prince.

[Klomp]

For one example, I bet we'll see lineups that go Russell/Edwards/McDaniels/Prince/Gobert. You may be worried about Prince's defense at the 4 but that's why you play him with others who are good defenders to cover up those weaknesses.

Finch was talking about a small ball lineup with KAT at the 5 and Forbes at the 2. I heard somewhere (I think from either Dane or Doogie,) that KA might get some small ball run at the 5 situationally. In the event we do run small to counter a small lineup Prince might be in that lineup, but he wouldn’t be a guarding a PF, he would be guarding a SF playing PF. I agree 100% with Finch, and everyone else who says “You are what you can defend.” I have no problem with multi position players like Dlo who played both PG and SG last year. What I mind is playing smaller players against guys they are not big enough or strong enough to defend. We need a reserve of bigs who when necessary can use their size and strength to defend opponent bigs. That is not Prince.

Ugh, so you're admitting that you agree with the premise of what I'm saying but you are just choosing to be difficult. In that lineup Prince is the PF and he would be guarding the PF. Whether or not it's a "true PF" really doesn't matter to the point, unless someone is intentionally being difficult. 90% of the players playing PF are not "true PFs" anymore, this isn't 1985.

[Klomp]

For one example, I bet we'll see lineups that go Russell/Edwards/McDaniels/Prince/Gobert. You may be worried about Prince's defense at the 4 but that's why you play him with others who are good defenders to cover up those weaknesses.

And at that point you really don't have a 3 and a 4. You just have 2 forwards.

Which is totally fine.

[winforlose]

For one example, I bet we'll see lineups that go Russell/Edwards/McDaniels/Prince/Gobert. You may be worried about Prince's defense at the 4 but that's why you play him with others who are good defenders to cover up those weaknesses.

Finch was talking about a small ball lineup with KAT at the 5 and Forbes at the 2. I heard somewhere (I think from either Dane or Doogie,) that KA might get some small ball run at the 5 situationally. In the event we do run small to counter a small lineup Prince might be in that lineup, but he wouldn’t be a guarding a PF, he would be guarding a SF playing PF. I agree 100% with Finch, and everyone else who says “You are what you can defend.” I have no problem with multi position players like Dlo who played both PG and SG last year. What I mind is playing smaller players against guys they are not big enough or strong enough to defend. We need a reserve of bigs who when necessary can use their size and strength to defend opponent bigs. That is not Prince.

Ugh, so you're admitting that you agree with the premise of what I'm saying but you are just choosing to be difficult. In that lineup Prince is the PF and he would be guarding the PF. Whether or not it's a "true PF" really doesn't matter to the point, unless someone is intentionally being difficult. 90% of the players playing PF are not "true PFs" anymore, this isn't 1985.

I am not being difficult, I am adding the context necessary to understand what I am trying to convey. When we signed Forbes I was happy. I said he will be good in situational minutes. Situational basketball is real. There will be times when our bigs are in foul trouble and we will want to run small. There will be times when we want to run super big as well. But can you honestly tell me that a small ball 5 is a true center? They even invented a term for it because it is not the same thing. A small ball PF is not a real PF. Sometimes we might match up with opponent lineups, sometimes we might play our best 5 and use the size advantage to simply overpower the smaller lineup. But, when you say this isn’t 1985, you are talking more about offense than defense. The game has gotten more 3 point dependent and drive and kick is better than inside outside right now. But defense doesn’t change that much. You need a guy fast enough and strong enough to guard his assigned player or you need a zone or switching scheme to compensate for the mismatch. I don’t care if we are talking 1955, 1985, 2021, or this year, the basics of defense are the basics of defense.

[SO_MONEY]

For one example, I bet we'll see lineups that go Russell/Edwards/McDaniels/Prince/Gobert. You may be worried about Prince's defense at the 4 but that's why you play him with others who are good defenders to cover up those weaknesses.

Anderson probably gets those minutes, first (that lineup), he has proven to be a very good PF. He might even be the primary ball handler. I see Prince playing the 3 to spell McDaniels in the most likely of outcomes.

[Klomp]

For one example, I bet we'll see lineups that go Russell/Edwards/McDaniels/Prince/Gobert. You may be worried about Prince's defense at the 4 but that's why you play him with others who are good defenders to cover up those weaknesses.

Anderson probably gets those minutes, first, he has proven to be a very good PF. I see Prince playing the 3 to spell McDaniels in the most likely of outcomes.

Towns will likely be the one paired more with Anderson in the one-big lineups.