People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[Stalwart]

It was much easier to score in the 1990s than in the 1960s. I hope you keep that in mind and have Wilt as your GOAT scorer.

I dont agree with that lol

why?

Because Ive seen 60s basketball and the defense is underwhelming to say the least.

[Stalwart]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

This is more easy now(since 2017)only because of the raise of the 3 points shot.It was not the case for the first 13 years of LBJ(2004 to 2016) compared to the first 9 years for Jordan.Outside of the pistons at their peak and the knicks under Riley(who had a below average offense with that)the defense in his era were nothing special

Well the question about which era is easier to score in is kind of a moot point as Jordan was an extreme outlier for his era. Lebron is not.

[AEnigma]

And Wilt was even more extreme in his. Strange how that works. Almost like the league keeps getting better and the outliers in weaker eras become less of an outlier in stronger ones…

Love the backtrack though. “1990s were harder for scoring.” “Not really, but feel free to explain why.” “Well actually it does not matter because fewer people were scoring like Jordan in the 1990s anyway.” Selective era relativity sure is convenient.

[Homer38]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

This is more easy now(since 2017)only because of the raise of the 3 points shot.It was not the case for the first 13 years of LBJ(2004 to 2016) compared to the first 9 years for Jordan.Outside of the pistons at their peak and the knicks under Riley(who had a below average offense with that)the defense in his era were nothing special

Well the question about which era is easier to score in is kind of a moot point as Jordan was an extreme outlier for his era. Lebron is not.

It was not the case when LBJ won 4 MVP....

[Homer38]

I dont agree with that lol

why?

Because Ive seen 60s basketball and the defense is underwhelming to say the least.

The pace were higher but the offensive rating were way lower that the 1980s and the 1990s

[falcolombardi]

why?

Because Ive seen 60s basketball and the defense is underwhelming to say the least.

The pace were higher but the offensive rating were way lower that the 1980s and the 1990s

And the ball handlig rules were much more strict

Post up and offensive players were allowed less contact initiation without it being a foul (i criticize ben taylor for never adressing this in his wilt vs shaq comparisions)

There was even less spacing

There was not 3 point line

There were not illegal defense rules

[McBubbles]

This is one of the funniest and most entertaining threads I've been on in awhile (also surprisingly informative), pleasant thing to come back to after a long basketball hiatus.

[Stalwart]

Faster pace, more possessions...

[falcolombardi]

Faster pace, more possessions...

But the 60's and 70's had much tougher rules to score which you just made a huge deal of just a few posts back.....

Players like kareem (specially) and wilt were also more efficient than jordan in these eras

[prolific passer]

Idk but I think the pre shot clock era was the easiest era to score in. Don't ask me why and/or how. I just know. Mmmkay.

[70sFan]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

It was much easier to score in the 1990s than in the 1960s. I hope you keep that in mind and have Wilt as your GOAT scorer.

I dont agree with that lol

You may not agree with that, but instead of laughing, you would have to prove why you are right.

The rules were significantly more defense oriented than in the 1980s:

- no illegal defense, alowing soft zones and doubles off-ball,
- stricter ball-handling rules, limiting perimeter players creativity,
- stricter traveling calls, disallowing offensive players to perform a lot of moves popular in the 1990s,
- less physicality allowed for offensive players, stricter offensive fouls,
- no three point line and no illegal defense caused significantly worse spacing,
- no limits on handchecking, unlike in the 1990s.

All of these caused offensive efficiency to be significantly lower back then. I know you will start with this "players were much more athletic and fundamentally sound in the 1990s", but then you should be consistent and admit that rules changes doesn't matter and players now are more athletic, skilled and fundamentally sound. You can't go with both paths at the same time to stay consistent.

In terms of rules limiting offensive players, you have it:

1960s -> 1990s -> 2020s

In terms of talent and athleticism, you have it:

2020s -> 1990s -> 1960s

[Gooner]

Elite scorers had it so tough under illegal defence rules.

Many of you keep parroting "illegal defence, illegale defence"... just look at the spacing back then compared to now. All the attention now is on the 3 point line, and that makes it much easier to get to the paint. Not to mention soft rules in today's game.

[Gooner]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

Today as in 2018-2022? Sure

But the league from 85-98 had lower pace and efficiency than the league from 2004-2017

For the most part of his prime lebron played in a slower and less efficient league where zone defense made it harder to score rules-wise.

Is only aftee the late 2010's spacing explosion that the league catched up (and passed by) jordan era scoring ease wise

The league started moving towards small ball, fast pace and more 3 point shooting since early 2010's and LeBron's Miami super team played a major part in that. Since 2016 it went extreme towards the 3 point shooting. The rules howewer, changed much earlier, since mid 2000's, when the league made an agenda to make the scoring easier and they changed the rules like hand checking, and they let offensive players get away with more violations, like LBJ or D Wade.

Since like 2004-2005, offenisve game has progressively been getting easier and easier. It's not a coincidence that it was at the start of LBJ's career, because he was built up to be the new Jordan, a new face of the league.

[70sFan]

The rules howewer, changed much earlier, since mid 2000's, when the league made an agenda to make the scoring easier and they changed the rules like hand checking, and they let offensive players get away with more violations, like LBJ or D Wade.

Since like 2004-2005, offenisve game has progressively been getting easier and easier. It's not a coincidence that it was at the start of LBJ's career, because he was built up to be the new Jordan, a new face of the league.

I think you missed the very important point - the rules has progressively been getting easier and easier for offensive players since the late 1970s, not since 2004. It's a very long process and the league started favoring offense a long time before Jordan came into the league.

[Gooner]

The rules howewer, changed much earlier, since mid 2000's, when the league made an agenda to make the scoring easier and they changed the rules like hand checking, and they let offensive players get away with more violations, like LBJ or D Wade.

Since like 2004-2005, offenisve game has progressively been getting easier and easier. It's not a coincidence that it was at the start of LBJ's career, because he was built up to be the new Jordan, a new face of the league.

I think you missed the very important point - the rules has progressively been getting easier and easier for offensive players since the late 1970s, not since 2004. It's a very long process and the league started favoring offense a long time before Jordan came into the league.

I don't disagree with that, the business aspect of the NBA has been expanding with time and the rules change with that. Although I think the league has never been more defensive than it was in the early to mid 2000's and that was a catalyst of change.

[70sFan]

The rules howewer, changed much earlier, since mid 2000's, when the league made an agenda to make the scoring easier and they changed the rules like hand checking, and they let offensive players get away with more violations, like LBJ or D Wade.

Since like 2004-2005, offenisve game has progressively been getting easier and easier. It's not a coincidence that it was at the start of LBJ's career, because he was built up to be the new Jordan, a new face of the league.

I think you missed the very important point - the rules has progressively been getting easier and easier for offensive players since the late 1970s, not since 2004. It's a very long process and the league started favoring offense a long time before Jordan came into the league.

I don't disagree with that, the business aspect of the NBA has been expanding with time and the rules change with that. Although I think the league has never been more defensive than it was in the early to mid 2000's and that was a catalyst of change.

Teams were very defensive minded in the early 2000s, I agree with that. It doesn't mean that the league wanted it, they created a lot of rules to make the league more offense-friendly, teams just didn't decide to go that way.

I agree that the changes in the mid-00s were significant, I just want to underline that the league manipulated rules and officiating way before that. If we want to contextualize 1990s basketball, we should do it the same with earlier eras. That's all I'm asking for.

[mysticOscar]

Pippen only had half of the games in '98 and the Bulls still managed 62 wins and Pippen was carried in the finals that year.

The Bulls were 24-11 (the 4th record in the NBA). They had the 12th offense lead by Jordan with a 105.7 Ortg. They had the 3rd defense lead by Kukoc (95.0), Longley (95.8), Harper (95.9) and then Jordan (96.4).
Then Pippen came back and they went 38-9 with the 4th best offense in the league (108.8) and 2nd best defense (99.5). I think it's clear what Pippen's impact was in the regular season.
In the Finals the Bulls were lead in +/- and defensively by Kukoc by a wide margin. Offensively Jordan (106.0) had a small margin over Kukoc (105.8). Definitely not a carry job here.

That's why Mj can insert into any system and do well. LbJs weakness on other hand (shooting and post game early in his game limited the system his in).

Uhmm, I thought the system always was the triangle. Jordan was 6-0 with the triangle. Actually 6-2 if you count 1990 and 1995. Any system other than that he is 0-7. And the triangle (Phil/Tex) has proven it's worth way beyond Jordan too. 5 championships in 7 finals during 11 other seasons.

Your being very deceptive with your use of stats here. Most of there losses without Pippen happened earlier in the '98 season having to adjust without Pippen and motivation after coming back after successful back to back chips.

Case in point, the Bulls were on like a 12-2 run before Pippen came back.

Using +/- stat's is just useless since MJ played like 39 min per game in RS.

The triangle was a great system for MJ. But any good system would have worked for MJ. proving that he didn't win a chip from year 1 doesn't prove anything. No one can carry those Bulls teams from the 80s in your first few seasons (that includes an injury season) to a chip in that Eastern conference

[AEnigma]

Elite scorers had it so tough under illegal defence rules.

Many of you keep parroting "illegal defence, illegale defence"... just look at the spacing back then compared to now. All the attention now is on the 3 point line, and that makes it much easier to get to the paint. Not to mention soft rules in today's game.

Spacing has certainly evolved with time, although 2009-14 Lebron was not exactly seeing perpetually open driving lanes. Again though we come back to player weaknesses and team structure. If Jordan could be given complete defensive attention with aggressive and active help, does he have the passing vision to take proper advantage? Would he sacrifice his shots, or would he try to take them anyway? Possibly. But the more that makes him look like Kobe, the more his mystique dies down…

[Stalwart]

Elite scorers had it so tough under illegal defence rules.

Many of you keep parroting "illegal defence, illegale defence"... just look at the spacing back then compared to now. All the attention now is on the 3 point line, and that makes it much easier to get to the paint. Not to mention soft rules in today's game.

Spacing has certainly evolved with time, although 2009-14 Lebron was not exactly seeing perpetually open driving lanes. Again though we come back to player weaknesses and team structure. If Jordan could be given complete defensive attention with aggressive and active help, does he have the passing vision to take proper advantage? Would he sacrifice his shots, or would he try to take them anyway? Possibly. But the more that makes him look like Kobe, the more his mystique dies down…

Jordan averaged 6 assists for his career. Even averaged 8 assists one year. During the 20 or so games he played PG he averaged 27pts and 10 assists(iirc). Jordan was a great, willing, and consistent passer.

Kobe was as well btw. He sacrificed his PPG all through the Shaq and Pau years while giving out 5 apg.

[AEnigma]

Jordan could make passes at reasonable volume, yep. But not all passing is equally effective. Jordan typically averaged more assists than Pippen, but which of them do you think had the better passing ability and vision? Jordan probably would/could have developed as a passer more without illegal defence rules, perhaps as Kobe did (I agree his ability there gets understated; I think he was an outright better passer than Jordan), but again we come back to the question of how much he would look to pass rather than trying to score anyway (as was often the criticism of Kobe).