OT: Magnus Carlsen brouhahas

[DCasey91]

The most basic of cheating countermeasures needs to be no more actual live-streaming (significant delay) and all electronics of those with access to the game (or live feed) locked away.

This is how it is dealt with currently in the most secure current “live” high stakes poker shows like Hustler’s Casino Live (no phones for players or production staff and a 1-2 hour delay).

Something I find cool about magicians is how they find ways of doing things engineers would solve in a very complex manner with super simple approaches.

So, an engineer could come up with a scheme for like a 6-pin processor, a tiny camera, a battery, an input device and an output device all wired up with tiny wires, hidden in clothing, that would always appear to be off until the input was somehow signaled.

When the input is signaled, the camera would capture the board position, the processor would compute the best move, and the output device would signal the solution.

So, it would allow cheating in a closed room and to detect it you would need to be scanning for electric fields near the player constantly during the match. Maybe a metal detecting wand could detect it? But I imagine that depends how much metal/wires was in the design.

And yet, I suspect a magician (basically a pro-cheater) could come up with something far less complex. Even if that wasn't the case, slight of hand techniques could be combined with a technology based approach to avoid detection. After all, if the device isn't where the metal detector is scanning, it's not going to find it.

But honestly playing in delayed format would solve this for over the board... if someone goes far enough to cheat over the board after alllll this, you gotta think there is an easier way to make 100k a year lol

Chess players even at the top get paid very little for how hard the game actually is. Fact you get paid more teaching/coaching but your chess suffers as a result as well known chess players have talked about. So cheating does come up because it’s literally their livelihood.

[CobraCommander]

Yes, it is fun when players/teams find loopholes or fool the referees allowing them to obtain an advantage gained trough their cunningness.
I'd rather have this than someone living like a robot to win.

Yeah so you don’t game or play chess -

and if you do and you take the position “it is fun when people find loop holes” then you miss the whole point why people play chess imo so.......

Not only that, but cheating isn't a loop hole. A loop hole is something legal, like Harden baiting refs. Cheating is doing something illegal, like taking steroids or paying a ref under the table to get calls. I'm guessing Bucket22 would love to learn that a team is paying refs. Good for them!

Exactly - like why even play?

[Fencer reregistered]

The fact that Hans is autistic actually makes me lean towards that he wasn't cheating.

Not because autistic people are incapable of cheating or anything but since one of the main arguments for him cheating is that Magnus played some random strat that he normally doesn't and Hans seemed too prepared for it...well, someone on the spectrum is exactly the kind of person I'd expect to be able to memorise that kind of stuff.

I don't know about that -- but if he's autistic, then all the "He sounds weird in interviews" evidence should be taken very lightly, and perhaps other behaviorial observations as well.

[Fencer reregistered]

The most basic of cheating countermeasures needs to be no more actual live-streaming (significant delay) and all electronics of those with access to the game (or live feed) locked away.

This is how it is dealt with currently in the most secure current “live” high stakes poker shows like Hustler’s Casino Live (no phones for players or production staff and a 1-2 hour delay).

Something I find cool about magicians is how they find ways of doing things engineers would solve in a very complex manner with super simple approaches.

So, an engineer could come up with a scheme for like a 6-pin processor, a tiny camera, a battery, an input device and an output device all wired up with tiny wires, hidden in clothing, that would always appear to be off until the input was somehow signaled.

When the input is signaled, the camera would capture the board position, the processor would compute the best move, and the output device would signal the solution.

So, it would allow cheating in a closed room and to detect it you would need to be scanning for electric fields near the player constantly during the match. Maybe a metal detecting wand could detect it? But I imagine that depends how much metal/wires was in the design.

And yet, I suspect a magician (basically a pro-cheater) could come up with something far less complex. Even if that wasn't the case, slight of hand techniques could be combined with a technology based approach to avoid detection. After all, if the device isn't where the metal detector is scanning, it's not going to find it.

But honestly playing in delayed format would solve this for over the board... if someone goes far enough to cheat over the board after alllll this, you gotta think there is an easier way to make 100k a year lol

Making guys play in total isolation, give or take a ref and so on, would make it very hard to cheat. Basically, a cheater would have to find and exploit a flaw in the isolation.

But I can't imagine the economics of that making sense except maybe for world championship matches.

[BoatsNZones]

Interestingly enough, a major (highly potential) cheating scandal in tonight's delayed live-stream involving arguably the greatest poker player of all time (Phil Ivey - who was a headliner but completely non-involved), the arguably best current high-stakes pro (Garret Aldelstein... he walked off the floor after demanding the 150 thousand back from the person he accused.. who gave it to him), and a number of mixed businessmen/women.

I will say that my stance on this exact case is that the semi-recreational woman simply made a scared/"hero" call and while completely dumb, had no business giving him the money back (this occurred about an hour later off stream) and the generally consummate professional (Garret Adelstein) will come off looking very poorly here.

This is going to be a very big story in the poker sphere, in a world where a million dollar hand was potentially in play quite literally every hand that this game was played. This is a stream that I actually mentioned earlier in the thread where phones are removed from players/staff and time-delays are implemented for the stream. The loser of the hand simply felt that it was SO off base of a call, that he had to be cheated (worth mentioning that while I disagree with him, he has been playing serious poker for ~20 years and on high-stakes live streams for nearly a decade).

Link of the stream (still ongoing right now).

Watch on YouTube

Link of the hand:

Read on Twitter

?

[DutchManDanFan]

I dont think Hans cheated (anal beads, mobile phone, signals from other people and whatnot)

what I believe is, Hans viciously abuse the use of chess engines, like memorizing entire lines and permutations -- as ridiculous as it may sound. Professional chess players have absurd memory retention capabilities so its not in the realm of impossibility

This is impossible. There are so many possibilities, even if you cancel out all the obvious bad moves. In most games you're on you own after move 10. Sometimes preparations goes to to move 20 or above, but only in main lines, played very often. If an opponent plays some other moves that are not the best, but not losing, he has to understand how to continue the game. Then you really need the 2700+ level to do so if you want to compete with the big boys.

[BoatsNZones]

Interestingly enough, a major (highly potential) cheating scandal in tonight's delayed live-stream involving arguably the greatest poker player of all time (Phil Ivey - who was a headliner but completely non-involved), the arguably best current high-stakes pro (Garret Aldelstein... he walked off the floor after demanding the 150 thousand back from the person he accused.. who gave it to him), and a number of mixed businessmen/women.

I will say that my stance on this exact case is that the semi-recreational woman simply made a scared/"hero" call and while completely dumb, had no business giving him the money back (this occurred about an hour later off stream) and the generally consummate professional (Garret Adelstein) will come off looking very poorly here.

This is going to be a very big story in the poker sphere, in a world where a million dollar hand was potentially in play quite literally every hand that this game was played. This is a stream that I actually mentioned earlier in the thread where phones are removed from players/staff and time-delays are implemented for the stream. The loser of the hand simply felt that it was SO off base of a call, that he had to be cheated (worth mentioning that while I disagree with him, he has been playing serious poker for ~20 years and on high-stakes live streams for nearly a decade).

Link of the stream (still ongoing right now).

Watch on YouTube

Link of the hand:

Read on Twitter

?

The accusers response (who - despite his stellar reputation - players have come out against as I originally did)

I have to confess that I am conflicted and am going to see more after seeing this response from Garret:

Read on Twitter

[shangrila]

Interestingly enough, a major (highly potential) cheating scandal in tonight's delayed live-stream involving arguably the greatest poker player of all time (Phil Ivey - who was a headliner but completely non-involved), the arguably best current high-stakes pro (Garret Aldelstein... he walked off the floor after demanding the 150 thousand back from the person he accused.. who gave it to him), and a number of mixed businessmen/women.

I will say that my stance on this exact case is that the semi-recreational woman simply made a scared/"hero" call and while completely dumb, had no business giving him the money back (this occurred about an hour later off stream) and the generally consummate professional (Garret Adelstein) will come off looking very poorly here.

This is going to be a very big story in the poker sphere, in a world where a million dollar hand was potentially in play quite literally every hand that this game was played. This is a stream that I actually mentioned earlier in the thread where phones are removed from players/staff and time-delays are implemented for the stream. The loser of the hand simply felt that it was SO off base of a call, that he had to be cheated (worth mentioning that while I disagree with him, he has been playing serious poker for ~20 years and on high-stakes live streams for nearly a decade).

Link of the stream (still ongoing right now).

Watch on YouTube

Link of the hand:

Read on Twitter

?

The accusers response (who - despite his stellar reputation - players have come out against as I originally did)

I have to confess that I am conflicted and am going to see more after seeing this response from Garret:

Read on Twitter

I always like these kinds of explanations.

"Oh well when I accused her, she got defensive and flustered. Suspicious!" Yeah, no **** dumbass. That's a natural human response. He doubles down too later in another tweet, claiming her "cordial" friend was pissed at him for taking his money back. Also suspicious in his apparently smooth brain, totally couldn't be a friend getting upset that she was somewhat bullied into giving the money back.

And look, maybe she did cheat. I don't know. But this response comes across as sour grapes more than anything.

[Wagonband]

If there wasn't cheating in this poker hand, then no cheating exists. She is crushed even vs most of his semibluffs that take this line, and there's only like 5-10% of hands where she actually has any chance to win. So unless she is braindead she cheated there.

[BoatsNZones]

If there wasn't cheating in this poker hand, then no cheating exists. She is crushed even vs most of his semibluffs that take this line, and there's only like 5-10% of hands where she actually has any chance to win. So unless she is braindead she cheated there.

Plenty of things add up to it being unlikely she cheated imo. I can go over it after I’m off work today, but this is far from a cut/dry “she cheated” scenario.

[DCasey91]

I dont think Hans cheated (anal beads, mobile phone, signals from other people and whatnot)

what I believe is, Hans viciously abuse the use of chess engines, like memorizing entire lines and permutations -- as ridiculous as it may sound. Professional chess players have absurd memory retention capabilities so its not in the realm of impossibility

This is impossible. There are so many possibilities, even if you cancel out all the obvious bad moves. In most games you're on you own after move 10. Sometimes preparations goes to to move 20 or above, but only in main lines, played very often. If an opponent plays some other moves that are not the best, but not losing, he has to understand how to continue the game. Then you really need the 2700+ level to do so if you want to compete with the big boys.

Exactly. It’s not that both didn’t play super duper precise or well it’s the fact that Magnus chose a dubious opening and Hans had a perfect reply going into long lines of continuation.

Sharper the line especially foreign or even transposition the better player has a distinct advantage.

Dudes coach is a known cheater as well.

Look Hans would crush nearly every person that’s played chess even super serious IM’s that would legit crush everybody below with their eyes closed upside down take that same level of strength to Magnus in comparison. It isn’t like a 1v1 basketball game it’s like when you play you can tell very very early how strong your opponent is.

Some super GM’s have already commented on how suspect Hans play it’s like his strength/capacity fluctuates greatly.

[DCasey91]

I dont think Hans cheated (anal beads, mobile phone, signals from other people and whatnot)

what I believe is, Hans viciously abuse the use of chess engines, like memorizing entire lines and permutations -- as ridiculous as it may sound. Professional chess players have absurd memory retention capabilities so its not in the realm of impossibility

This is impossible. There are so many possibilities, even if you cancel out all the obvious bad moves. In most games you're on you own after move 10. Sometimes preparations goes to to move 20 or above, but only in main lines, played very often. If an opponent plays some other moves that are not the best, but not losing, he has to understand how to continue the game. Then you really need the 2700+ level to do so if you want to compete with the big boys.

Exactly. It’s not that both didn’t play super duper precise or well it’s the fact that Magnus chose a dubious opening and Hans had a perfect reply going into long lines of continuation.

Sharper the line especially foreign or even transposition the better player has a distinct advantage.

Dudes coach is a known cheater as well.

Look Hans would crush nearly every person that’s played chess even super serious IM’s that would legit crush everybody below with their eyes closed upside down take that same level of strength to Magnus in comparison. It isn’t like a 1v1 basketball game it’s like when you play you can tell very very early how strong your opponent is.

Some super GM’s have already commented on how suspect Hans play it’s like his strength/capacity fluctuates greatly.

Also abusing a chess engine is like trying to understand a demigod lol. Heck it would be in basketball terms if MJ had a thing that would destroy him at basketball without even caring for it all to learn from. More than half the time even at very top it makes little sense because engines are light years ahead of any human.

[Braggins]

If there wasn't cheating in this poker hand, then no cheating exists. She is crushed even vs most of his semibluffs that take this line, and there's only like 5-10% of hands where she actually has any chance to win. So unless she is braindead she cheated there.

Plenty of things add up to it being unlikely she cheated imo. I can go over it after I’m off work today, but this is far from a cut/dry “she cheated” scenario.

Poker is a **** game that constantly rewards bad plays. Not sure why people would immediately jump to cheating as an explanation for someone making a nonsensical play and getting rewarded.

[Fencer reregistered]

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/professional-chess-cheating-scandal-magnus-carlsen-hans-niemann-1234602625/

This article doesn't live up to its subtitle; all the scandals it notes are:
-- Niemann and Dlugy cheating on Chess.com.
-- Carlsen's accusations against Niemann.
-- People's anger at Carlsen's behavior.
-- An utterly unrelated instance of a commentator being a sexist ass and quickly being fired as a result.

But it has more details on Chess.com stuff than I'd previously seen.

[LikeABosh]

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The best chess song is "I've Seen All Good People"

[JonFromVA]

If there wasn't cheating in this poker hand, then no cheating exists. She is crushed even vs most of his semibluffs that take this line, and there's only like 5-10% of hands where she actually has any chance to win. So unless she is braindead she cheated there.

Plenty of things add up to it being unlikely she cheated imo. I can go over it after I’m off work today, but this is far from a cut/dry “she cheated” scenario.

Poker is a **** game that constantly rewards bad plays. Not sure why people would immediately jump to cheating as an explanation for someone making a nonsensical play and getting rewarded.

otoh, someone cheating on a time delayed basis will have a predictable pattern. I couldn't read that entire tweet, but it sounds like that's what Phil Ivey exposed through his play and the cheater fessed up.

I'm not sure how well that would apply to chess, you might see the cheater always "thinking" for the entire duration of the "time delay" before making a critical move.

The problem is the dumb cheaters can teach the professional cheaters what to avoid faster than the anti-cheaters can come up with ways to avoid, catch, or prevent them.

[LikeABosh]

Interestingly enough, a major (highly potential) cheating scandal in tonight's delayed live-stream involving arguably the greatest poker player of all time (Phil Ivey - who was a headliner but completely non-involved), the arguably best current high-stakes pro (Garret Aldelstein... he walked off the floor after demanding the 150 thousand back from the person he accused.. who gave it to him), and a number of mixed businessmen/women.

I will say that my stance on this exact case is that the semi-recreational woman simply made a scared/"hero" call and while completely dumb, had no business giving him the money back (this occurred about an hour later off stream) and the generally consummate professional (Garret Adelstein) will come off looking very poorly here.

This is going to be a very big story in the poker sphere, in a world where a million dollar hand was potentially in play quite literally every hand that this game was played. This is a stream that I actually mentioned earlier in the thread where phones are removed from players/staff and time-delays are implemented for the stream. The loser of the hand simply felt that it was SO off base of a call, that he had to be cheated (worth mentioning that while I disagree with him, he has been playing serious poker for ~20 years and on high-stakes live streams for nearly a decade).

Link of the stream (still ongoing right now).

Watch on YouTube

Link of the hand:

Read on Twitter

?

Idk. It's kind of a dumb spot to cheat. I know she had pot odds, but you'd think if you were cheating you could find something more favorable than that and avoid the scenarios where you have to show your garbage hand.

[BoatsNZones]

Interestingly enough, a major (highly potential) cheating scandal in tonight's delayed live-stream involving arguably the greatest poker player of all time (Phil Ivey - who was a headliner but completely non-involved), the arguably best current high-stakes pro (Garret Aldelstein... he walked off the floor after demanding the 150 thousand back from the person he accused.. who gave it to him), and a number of mixed businessmen/women.

I will say that my stance on this exact case is that the semi-recreational woman simply made a scared/"hero" call and while completely dumb, had no business giving him the money back (this occurred about an hour later off stream) and the generally consummate professional (Garret Adelstein) will come off looking very poorly here.

This is going to be a very big story in the poker sphere, in a world where a million dollar hand was potentially in play quite literally every hand that this game was played. This is a stream that I actually mentioned earlier in the thread where phones are removed from players/staff and time-delays are implemented for the stream. The loser of the hand simply felt that it was SO off base of a call, that he had to be cheated (worth mentioning that while I disagree with him, he has been playing serious poker for ~20 years and on high-stakes live streams for nearly a decade).

Link of the stream (still ongoing right now).

Watch on YouTube

Link of the hand:

Read on Twitter

?

Idk. It's kind of a dumb spot to cheat. I know she had pot odds, but you'd think if you were cheating you could find something more favorable than that and avoid the scenarios where you have to show your garbage hand.

My thoughts as well. Absolutely not the spot you would take.

[BoatsNZones]

If there wasn't cheating in this poker hand, then no cheating exists. She is crushed even vs most of his semibluffs that take this line, and there's only like 5-10% of hands where she actually has any chance to win. So unless she is braindead she cheated there.

Plenty of things add up to it being unlikely she cheated imo. I can go over it after I’m off work today, but this is far from a cut/dry “she cheated” scenario.

Poker is a **** game that constantly rewards bad plays. Not sure why people would immediately jump to cheating as an explanation for someone making a nonsensical play and getting rewarded.

Couldn’t disagree more. It is the ultimate balance of math, instincts and luck imo.

[CobraCommander]

Interestingly enough, a major (highly potential) cheating scandal in tonight's delayed live-stream involving arguably the greatest poker player of all time (Phil Ivey - who was a headliner but completely non-involved), the arguably best current high-stakes pro (Garret Aldelstein... he walked off the floor after demanding the 150 thousand back from the person he accused.. who gave it to him), and a number of mixed businessmen/women.

I will say that my stance on this exact case is that the semi-recreational woman simply made a scared/"hero" call and while completely dumb, had no business giving him the money back (this occurred about an hour later off stream) and the generally consummate professional (Garret Adelstein) will come off looking very poorly here.

This is going to be a very big story in the poker sphere, in a world where a million dollar hand was potentially in play quite literally every hand that this game was played. This is a stream that I actually mentioned earlier in the thread where phones are removed from players/staff and time-delays are implemented for the stream. The loser of the hand simply felt that it was SO off base of a call, that he had to be cheated (worth mentioning that while I disagree with him, he has been playing serious poker for ~20 years and on high-stakes live streams for nearly a decade).

Link of the stream (still ongoing right now).

Watch on YouTube

Link of the hand:

Read on Twitter

?

Wow this is bad....they need to stop asking IF she cheat and asking how ASAP