Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36 - 2021-22 Joel Embiid
Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 9,494
- And1: 7,102
- Joined: Apr 13, 2021
-
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
1997 penny hardaway
In 96 him and shaq destroyed the league offensively before struggling against the bulls defense (-1 relative offense by quick math) which was able to keep shaq off the offensive board and make penny struggle scoring and creating
In 97 without O'neal he was able to increase his volume AND efficiency in the playoffs with a elite 30 points per game series to floor raise orlando into a decent offense
My analisis of him is that he is a excellent passer and playmaker, a excellent ballhandler at 6'7 who can get to his spots at will with his handles.
His scoring is only moderately efficient due to (from the games i watched) so-so (not bad but mediocre) finishing in the 0-10 feet area. Although with impressive ease at getting there.
His defense was also unremarkable to me but his lenght and effort made him seem lile a small plus to me
I think he is the best offensive player of this bunch up there with reggie but embiid/pippen defense put them over him.
Feels like better finishing inside or jumpshot would make him a generational offensive player. Shame we didnt get to see his full potential
In 96 him and shaq destroyed the league offensively before struggling against the bulls defense (-1 relative offense by quick math) which was able to keep shaq off the offensive board and make penny struggle scoring and creating
In 97 without O'neal he was able to increase his volume AND efficiency in the playoffs with a elite 30 points per game series to floor raise orlando into a decent offense
My analisis of him is that he is a excellent passer and playmaker, a excellent ballhandler at 6'7 who can get to his spots at will with his handles.
His scoring is only moderately efficient due to (from the games i watched) so-so (not bad but mediocre) finishing in the 0-10 feet area. Although with impressive ease at getting there.
His defense was also unremarkable to me but his lenght and effort made him seem lile a small plus to me
I think he is the best offensive player of this bunch up there with reggie but embiid/pippen defense put them over him.
Feels like better finishing inside or jumpshot would make him a generational offensive player. Shame we didnt get to see his full potential
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 9,494
- And1: 7,102
- Joined: Apr 13, 2021
-
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
Jimmy butler 2022
I prefer this version over 2020 due to the insane playoff run
Reduced his assits but increased volume and improved his turnovers even more (fun fact, he has 1.5 assists less per game than 2020 playoffs but 1.4 less turnovers too, which on itself is a -great- trade off before even considering the scoring volume increase)
A 27 points a game run on +3 efficiency and 6%tov (!!!). He kinda did in the playoffs what 2003 mcgrady did in regular season while having a small but clear defensive edge in my view. Main weakness is that he passed the ball less but i truly think scoring butler was what miami needed with the relative lack of scoring in their roster once they started reducing herro minutes
His regular season was admittedly not the greatest but his playoffs run was in very rarefied air
I think he is the kind of player who is not truly -great- anythingh in an absolute sense (defense, scoring, creation) but very good at all these thinghs which adds to a -ton- of impact and ability to carry a talented but not remarkably so team into low end comtender status (kinda like pippen).
His boxscore is deceptively similar to peak penny. Less turnovers (and penny already had low turnovers), similar efficiency, neither is a great jumpshooter (butler actually peaked higher as a jumpshooter in 2022 than hardaway)
Butler is a less crispy passer and a less smooth ballhandler but has a unexpected small edge im jumpshot numbers, a very expected edge in forcing free throws and a impressive inside efficiency 0-3 feet advantage (70% in 0-3 feet in the playoffs) and of course a defensive edge
2021/2022 embiid
His 2022 version is probably better in a vacuum with a notable improvent in his ability to pass (which shows in the boxscore by significatively increasing assists without increasing turnovers) but the playoffs are worse than 2021
I dont blame his face injury on fragility but it still happened and affected his playoffs run. I have come around on taxing embiid injuries as he has been healthy enough to play and impact the game in the last 4 postseasons in a row
Strong defender (when he tries) with excellent scoring and enough passing now to adequately exploit his scoring threat (although he still has a long way to go at dealing with double teams and blitzes in the post or not falling in love with hero ball jumpers)
I prefer this version over 2020 due to the insane playoff run
Reduced his assits but increased volume and improved his turnovers even more (fun fact, he has 1.5 assists less per game than 2020 playoffs but 1.4 less turnovers too, which on itself is a -great- trade off before even considering the scoring volume increase)
A 27 points a game run on +3 efficiency and 6%tov (!!!). He kinda did in the playoffs what 2003 mcgrady did in regular season while having a small but clear defensive edge in my view. Main weakness is that he passed the ball less but i truly think scoring butler was what miami needed with the relative lack of scoring in their roster once they started reducing herro minutes
His regular season was admittedly not the greatest but his playoffs run was in very rarefied air
I think he is the kind of player who is not truly -great- anythingh in an absolute sense (defense, scoring, creation) but very good at all these thinghs which adds to a -ton- of impact and ability to carry a talented but not remarkably so team into low end comtender status (kinda like pippen).
His boxscore is deceptively similar to peak penny. Less turnovers (and penny already had low turnovers), similar efficiency, neither is a great jumpshooter (butler actually peaked higher as a jumpshooter in 2022 than hardaway)
Butler is a less crispy passer and a less smooth ballhandler but has a unexpected small edge im jumpshot numbers, a very expected edge in forcing free throws and a impressive inside efficiency 0-3 feet advantage (70% in 0-3 feet in the playoffs) and of course a defensive edge
2021/2022 embiid
His 2022 version is probably better in a vacuum with a notable improvent in his ability to pass (which shows in the boxscore by significatively increasing assists without increasing turnovers) but the playoffs are worse than 2021
I dont blame his face injury on fragility but it still happened and affected his playoffs run. I have come around on taxing embiid injuries as he has been healthy enough to play and impact the game in the last 4 postseasons in a row
Strong defender (when he tries) with excellent scoring and enough passing now to adequately exploit his scoring threat (although he still has a long way to go at dealing with double teams and blitzes in the post or not falling in love with hero ball jumpers)
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 9,494
- And1: 7,102
- Joined: Apr 13, 2021
-
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
My votes
1- scottie pippen (1994) alternatively 1995 or 1996
Star level impact in both ends of the court adding to superstsr impact, can anchor solid but not stacked supporting cast (94 bulls) into low end contender status, off ball value also makes him incredibly portable alongside otherstars
2-Joel Embiid 2021
If 2022 had got a healthier playoff run i may have him first, but that didnt happen
Strong (although not quite dpoy level imo) defensive anchor when he tries with truly elite scoring and ability to foul out full frontlines (the flopping is annoying but it is still called by the refs) cam anchor a team on both ends although his tendency to take bad shots and struggle with passing against blitzes is s strong limiting factor on him
3 Dikembe mutombo (1994)
I compared his defense to reggie offense amd came away thinking mutombo just "impacts" more plays than reggie does and feel he is a more useful weapon for a offense than miller for a defense
His rim protection is worth the hype. Athletic, great timing and play reads/positioning, huge and seems to just intimidate players to a ridiculous degree, what enigma says about howard but better and with less "mistakes" off overcommiting.
I think being a post up focal point was a miscast for him but he seems like a good enough passer, finisher and power player to be a more effective offensive player if used less as a isolationist
4- jimmy butler 2022 (2020, 2019)
Elite turnover economy, strong volume scoring on good efficiency and with quality passing and defense
His sixers series is impressive but loses some shine from embiid injury and missed games, his boston series is really good when he was healthy but the hurt games still count and he did inflate his stats a bit beating up the hawks defense
All these factors make me curb down his playoffs run a bit, enough to be passed by reggie...but then watching reggie defense a bit more closely has brought me down on it all the way to potentially a slight negative, so is butler above him again
5-reggie miller 1995 (1994)
Incredible playoffs run, elevated the pacers to impressive offense in the playoffs, absurd scoring + elite gravity. Relatively low creation
I value the scoring and spacing gap a bit more than i like butler defense and turnovers, also his series against knicks is overall more impressive than butler vs boston imo
Edit: on further game watching i am feeling lower on reggie D so butler goes over him again
6-1997 penny hardaway (1996)
Up there for me with butler and reggie. The short playoffs sample size gives me some doubts. But the regular season was absolutely elite
Impressive series against a excellent defense
1- scottie pippen (1994) alternatively 1995 or 1996
Star level impact in both ends of the court adding to superstsr impact, can anchor solid but not stacked supporting cast (94 bulls) into low end contender status, off ball value also makes him incredibly portable alongside otherstars
2-Joel Embiid 2021
If 2022 had got a healthier playoff run i may have him first, but that didnt happen
Strong (although not quite dpoy level imo) defensive anchor when he tries with truly elite scoring and ability to foul out full frontlines (the flopping is annoying but it is still called by the refs) cam anchor a team on both ends although his tendency to take bad shots and struggle with passing against blitzes is s strong limiting factor on him
3 Dikembe mutombo (1994)
I compared his defense to reggie offense amd came away thinking mutombo just "impacts" more plays than reggie does and feel he is a more useful weapon for a offense than miller for a defense
His rim protection is worth the hype. Athletic, great timing and play reads/positioning, huge and seems to just intimidate players to a ridiculous degree, what enigma says about howard but better and with less "mistakes" off overcommiting.
I think being a post up focal point was a miscast for him but he seems like a good enough passer, finisher and power player to be a more effective offensive player if used less as a isolationist
4- jimmy butler 2022 (2020, 2019)
Elite turnover economy, strong volume scoring on good efficiency and with quality passing and defense
His sixers series is impressive but loses some shine from embiid injury and missed games, his boston series is really good when he was healthy but the hurt games still count and he did inflate his stats a bit beating up the hawks defense
All these factors make me curb down his playoffs run a bit, enough to be passed by reggie...but then watching reggie defense a bit more closely has brought me down on it all the way to potentially a slight negative, so is butler above him again
5-reggie miller 1995 (1994)
Incredible playoffs run, elevated the pacers to impressive offense in the playoffs, absurd scoring + elite gravity. Relatively low creation
I value the scoring and spacing gap a bit more than i like butler defense and turnovers, also his series against knicks is overall more impressive than butler vs boston imo
Edit: on further game watching i am feeling lower on reggie D so butler goes over him again
6-1997 penny hardaway (1996)
Up there for me with butler and reggie. The short playoffs sample size gives me some doubts. But the regular season was absolutely elite
Impressive series against a excellent defense
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
- Mogspan
- Pro Prospect
- Posts: 871
- And1: 1,579
- Joined: Apr 13, 2018
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
1993-94 Scottie Pippen: By far the best player on an arguable championship-caliber team. 22 ppg on above-average efficiency while being the league's best non-big defender and an excellent passer. One of the greatest defensive #1, offensive #2 players of all time.
1989-90 John Stockton: Monster impact player. Extremely efficient scorer (+13 ts%) on decent volume (17.2ppg) while being arguably the best passer in the league and an excellent defender for his position.
1986-87 Kevin McHale: Ridiculous efficiency (+20 ts%) on excellent volume (26.1 ppg) while being an all-league defender.
1989-90 John Stockton: Monster impact player. Extremely efficient scorer (+13 ts%) on decent volume (17.2ppg) while being arguably the best passer in the league and an excellent defender for his position.
1986-87 Kevin McHale: Ridiculous efficiency (+20 ts%) on excellent volume (26.1 ppg) while being an all-league defender.
Also, something that might surprise people. I think when it comes to athleticism, agility, physical attributes and skill I rate LeBron only in the top 50.
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
- Proxy
- Sophomore
- Posts: 237
- And1: 192
- Joined: Jun 30, 2021
-
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
Proxy wrote:Waaaayy too much uncertainty for me in this range, really just splitting hairs for these spots until the early 40s so i've began losing interest and will provide less for my 'explanations' - some of these players have also made these projects before if further brief reasoning is needed(*cough* Frazier), but anyways
1. 2022 Joel Embiid
-Mentioned before, him going this low for me is mainly durability related, but I did have Paul on my ballot starting in the early 20s with a similar problem.
2. 1972 Walt Frazier (1971, 1973)
-Arguably the best defensive PG of all-time(though I might prefer Jason Kidd, iirc he ended second in the project from a few years ago), and the best perimeter defender of the era, 70sfan also linked some Knicks footage for anyone interested.70sFan wrote:Well, I don't know that. I am extremely high on Frazier as well. Anyway, here are some for start:Spoiler:
Meshed well with a variety of different teammates(though there was not much roster turnover for some of those Knicks teams) and one of the rare superstars to consistently elevate their play in the PS and capped off the year with a dominant performance against the #2 ranked defense Lakers in the finals, averaging 23-8-8 on 61.25 TS%(+14 ish rTS% iirc, I can't tell if bballref is glitched but it also says they had a +10 rORTG that series but got killed on defense). Even w/o his co-star Willis Reed(who he led the team to a 50-win pace in games without him albeit with a fairly strong cast - they were some very strong teams when healthy, somehow they got like 5 players into the nba's 75th anniversary team lol).
3. 1996 Penny Hardaway
-This year placed Penny in rarefied air as an offensive engine in NBA history(note the following numbers may be slightly off, and I haven't checked them in a while so I would fact check them if you aren't already aware)Proxy wrote:Penny 28 games without Shaq in '96
-Averaged 27 per 75 on +10 rTS%
-50 win pace(+3 team without Shaq and with Horace)
-+4 team rORTG
Other stuff from that year:
A top 50 RS AuPM/g peak OAT, top 5 in the league in 1996
#1 in the league according to Pollack's on/off estimates(+17.1) - on a side note the team numbers in *1995* being so similar makes me believe there was maybe some starter substitution stuff going on for those teams, but this year's result was still without Shaq 1/4 of the year so i'd say it's mostly fair
The 96 Magic finished with a rORTG of +5.3 even with Shaq missing 28 games
Shaq missed 28, Horace Grant missed 19. The Magic were a +10 ish SRS team with both iirc...with an offensive rating of 117.6!
After Penny sliced up the Bulls in the 1996 ECF...
and Shaq departed, the following year they were a respectable +3 team with Horace Grant again (+3 ORtg), only this time Penny missed 21 games and without him the Magic were a -6.5 SRS team w/ a -7.9 ORtg.
The Orlando Magic had a stellar +7.7 PS Ortg from 95-97 with what i'd call close to 1A 1B situation on offense for some of those years.
Otoh concerns on his defense is what lowers him enough for me from what I think is a top-20 offensive peak OAT. When revisiting him I didn't necessarily think it was quite as bad as I did before, and fwiw on Phoenix he was considered a positive defensively(hard to measure actual improvements vs team situation). Anyways, that uncertainty gets him to being someone i'm fine in the back end of my top-40 and really just interchangable with the people i'm voting for this round.
4. 2022 Luka Doncič (2020)
-LukasGOAT has been making comparisons to him to players that have been in already that look fairly good for him - I could copy paste if needed, honestly I could somewhat see the case for him to have been ranked top-30 already based on his offensive brilliance in the PS so far.
I would probably prefer him to someone like Harden in a PS setting on as a primary for the same reasons as him(but like he said his defense might be even worse), he never really combined something like the RS dominance of 2020 with his PS performance in 2022 so ig it's maybe understandable with just one season making it out of the first round and the other two both against the Clippers so far(PS elevation confidence).
---
I really didn't think I would find myself ranking him this early going into the project but i'm thinking about Scottie Pippen next - the more I look into him I feel my concerns over his HC offense value maintaining in the PS(cuz of scoring ability specifically) were a little overstated, and his defensive versatility was just so valuable for the era, I would probably have either him or Bobby as the best non-big defender OAT w/ Kawhi, Dennis, and AK having cases as well.
I'm probably between him Dwight, Zo, Thurmond, or Barry next but the centers here are just so extremely packed. Solid cases for Lanier and Gilmore are being made even and just more to come.
Ballot recap:
1. 2022 Joel Embiid
2. 1972 Walt Frazier (1971, 1973)
3. 1996 Penny Hardaway
4. 2022 Luka Doncič (2020)
5. 1995 Scottie Pippen (1994, 1996)
Will add on Pippen if he's needed for a tiebreaker or something, I decided on Dwight over him in the end but he got in already.
Wasn't super impressed by Zo's playoffs/the likely Riley impact slightly overstating what I think his goodness in a vacuum really is(I consider him the GOAT coach) so I held back on him - think these 5 will round out the top 40 for me.
AEnigma wrote:Arf arf.
trex_8063 wrote:Calling someone a stinky turd is not acceptable.
PLEASE stop doing that.
One_and_Done wrote:I mean, how would you feel if the NBA traced it's origins to an 1821 league of 3 foot dwarves who performed in circuses?
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- Sophomore
- Posts: 210
- And1: 75
- Joined: Jun 19, 2022
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
trex_8063 wrote:AGAIN.....
Don't know how much longer I'll participate, because around now the field feels SO BUSY, I stop having any particular confidence in my picks.
But I really do think Embiid should be in by about now, so I'll keep voting at least that long....
1st ballot: '22 Joel Embiid (> '21)
Honestly, on a per-minute basis, I think Embiid is a bit better/more valuable than anyone left on the table (and perhaps has been for a few threads now). We're talking about a top 3 defensive center who also led the league in scoring [on good efficiency]; and a decent passing big. That's crazy.
It's simply the missed games/durability concerns (in BOTH rs and playoffs) combined with relatively restricted minutes that held him back from top 20(ish) status for me.
2nd ballot: '61 Elgin Baylor (> '62)
When I think of Elgin, I imagine: what if you had Carmelo Anthony's scoring, peak Kevin Durant's passing/playmaking, and Shawn Marion's rebounding (and at least average defense)?....
That would be an awfully nice player, no?
I sort of feel like that's very nearly what you have with peak Baylor.
3rd ballot: '75 Artis Gilmore (> '72)
imo, the most closely analogous player to Dwight Howard (who just got in and was my 2nd ballot last round). I think he should come in around here for the same reasons.
4th: '22 Jimmy Butler (> '20) decided I need to put him in here.
5th: '22 Luka Doncic ('21, '20) -- not real sure to place him, but couple other posters are making me think it's time to get him in the mix
6th: '17 Russell Westbrook
If it's not too late to vote, may I entirely endorse The Trex Ballot as well?
Either way, thank you.
Life it is not just a series of calculations and a sum total of statistics, it's about experience, it's about participation, it is something more complex and more interesting than what is obvious.
Libeskind
Statistics are no substitute for judgment.
Clay
Libeskind
Statistics are no substitute for judgment.
Clay
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 9,494
- And1: 7,102
- Joined: Apr 13, 2021
-
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
I am starting to consider mutombo over miller, his defensive presence is impressing me slightly more than reggie offensive one
In fact the comparision is oddly similar because both a off-ball constant presence lile reggie and a defensive constant intimidator like dikembe provide a subtle "passive" effect even when they are not shooting or affecting shots. It can feel like they go missing from long stretches of the game because most of their time is spent away from the ball (in both D and O)
And as far as mutombo offense vs reggie defense.
Reggie feels lile neutral at best from watching, it has not impressed me at all, his lenght bothers players 1vs1 but he is taken of the dribble a bit too easily by perimeter player and pushed away a bit too easily by stronger wings. He doesnt make all that much with his lenght outside of contesting jumpers and ocassionally pressuring passing lanes (not particularly good at that either from watching)
Mutombo offense is not that impressive but he feels like a bigger weapon for a offense with his size inside for finishing and rebounding alone than reggie is for a defense
In fact the comparision is oddly similar because both a off-ball constant presence lile reggie and a defensive constant intimidator like dikembe provide a subtle "passive" effect even when they are not shooting or affecting shots. It can feel like they go missing from long stretches of the game because most of their time is spent away from the ball (in both D and O)
And as far as mutombo offense vs reggie defense.
Reggie feels lile neutral at best from watching, it has not impressed me at all, his lenght bothers players 1vs1 but he is taken of the dribble a bit too easily by perimeter player and pushed away a bit too easily by stronger wings. He doesnt make all that much with his lenght outside of contesting jumpers and ocassionally pressuring passing lanes (not particularly good at that either from watching)
Mutombo offense is not that impressive but he feels like a bigger weapon for a offense with his size inside for finishing and rebounding alone than reggie is for a defense
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 9,494
- And1: 7,102
- Joined: Apr 13, 2021
-
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
Changed my vote to put mutombo at 3rd and mpve reggie below butler
1-pippen 94
2-embiid 21 (22)
3- mutombo 94
4- butler 22 (20)
5- reggie 95 (94)
6- penny 97 (96)
1-pippen 94
2-embiid 21 (22)
3- mutombo 94
4- butler 22 (20)
5- reggie 95 (94)
6- penny 97 (96)
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- Assistant Coach
- Posts: 4,130
- And1: 5,974
- Joined: Jul 24, 2022
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
What about Nate Thurmond though? Peaked at second in MVP voting and was the best player on a decent Finals team that was competitive with the 1967 76ers, even more so than the Celtics had been that year. In 1973 he led the Warriors to an upset of the Bucks despite Rick Barry being hampered that series, primarily by forcing in Kareem of the worst series of his entire career (and tbh their matchup in 1972 might be Kareem’s second worst). By reputation and by data the best post defender in league history. Rough scorer but had enough range to at least slightly stretch opposing centres, and it is not as if Dikembe was offering much scoring value either. Decent passer… If going all in on a defensive superstar, really do feel like he should be the guy.
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 9,494
- And1: 7,102
- Joined: Apr 13, 2021
-
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
AEnigma wrote:What about Nate Thurmond though? Peaked at second in MVP voting and was the best player on a decent Finals team that played competitively against the 1967 Warriors, even more than the Celtics did that year. In 1973 he led the Warriors to an upset of the Bucks despite Rick Barry being hampered that series, primarily by forcing in Kareem of the worst series of his entire career (and tbh their matchup in 1972 might be Kareem’s second worst). By reputation and by data the best post defender in league history. Rough scorer but had enough range to at least slightly stretch opposing centres, and it is not as if Dikembe was offering much scoring value either. Decent passer… If going all in on a defensive superstar, really do feel like he should be the guy.
I have not watched thurmond games yet, would you say his rim protection and overall defensive presence as a detterent in the paint is comparable to mutombo?
I generally would value historical rim protection over historical post defense at least on paper (just many more possesions affected by the former than the latter)
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- Assistant Coach
- Posts: 4,130
- And1: 5,974
- Joined: Jul 24, 2022
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
falcolombardi wrote:AEnigma wrote:What about Nate Thurmond though? Peaked at second in MVP voting and was the best player on a decent Finals team that played competitively against the 1967 Warriors, even more than the Celtics did that year. In 1973 he led the Warriors to an upset of the Bucks despite Rick Barry being hampered that series, primarily by forcing in Kareem of the worst series of his entire career (and tbh their matchup in 1972 might be Kareem’s second worst). By reputation and by data the best post defender in league history. Rough scorer but had enough range to at least slightly stretch opposing centres, and it is not as if Dikembe was offering much scoring value either. Decent passer… If going all in on a defensive superstar, really do feel like he should be the guy.
I have not watched thurmond games yet, would you say his rim protection and overall defensive presence as a detterent in the paint is comparable to mutombo?
I generally would value historical rim protection over historical post defense at least on paper (just many more possesions affected by the former than the latter)
He is on the shortlist of greatest rim protectors in league history, although I might stop short of calling him outright better than Dikembe on that front. Had a quadruple double with blocks the first season the NBA recorded blocks, which was at the tail-end of his prime. Also had pretty good mobility at his peak. I have him third on my defensive peaks list.
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 9,494
- And1: 7,102
- Joined: Apr 13, 2021
-
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
AEnigma wrote:falcolombardi wrote:AEnigma wrote:What about Nate Thurmond though? Peaked at second in MVP voting and was the best player on a decent Finals team that played competitively against the 1967 Warriors, even more than the Celtics did that year. In 1973 he led the Warriors to an upset of the Bucks despite Rick Barry being hampered that series, primarily by forcing in Kareem of the worst series of his entire career (and tbh their matchup in 1972 might be Kareem’s second worst). By reputation and by data the best post defender in league history. Rough scorer but had enough range to at least slightly stretch opposing centres, and it is not as if Dikembe was offering much scoring value either. Decent passer… If going all in on a defensive superstar, really do feel like he should be the guy.
I have not watched thurmond games yet, would you say his rim protection and overall defensive presence as a detterent in the paint is comparable to mutombo?
I generally would value historical rim protection over historical post defense at least on paper (just many more possesions affected by the former than the latter)
He is on the shortlist of greatest rim protectors in league history, although I might stop short of calling him outright better than Dikembe on that front. Had a quadruple double with blocks the first season the NBA recorded blocks, which was at the tail-end of his prime. Also had pretty good mobility at his peak. I have him third on my defensive peaks list.
Noted
Gonna look him up next then
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
- LA Bird
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,615
- And1: 3,379
- Joined: Feb 16, 2015
Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #36
Here are the results for round 36
Winner: 22 Embiid
There were 10 voters in this round: Ron Swanson, AEnigma, capfan33, Samurai, trelos6, trex_8063, falcolombardi, Mogspan, Proxy, Ginoboleee
A total of 34 seasons received at least 1 vote: 16 Green, 17 Westbrook, 20 Butler, 20 Doncic, 21 Doncic, 21 Embiid, 22 Butler, 22 Doncic, 22 Embiid, 58 Pettit, 59 Pettit, 61 Baylor, 62 Baylor, 62 Pettit, 63 Pettit, 69 Reed, 70 Reed, 71 Frazier, 72 Frazier, 72 Gilmore, 73 Frazier, 74 Lanier, 75 Gilmore, 87 McHale, 90 Stockton, 94 Miller, 94 Mutombo, 94 Pippen, 95 Miller, 95 Pippen, 96 Hardaway, 96 Pippen, 97 Hardaway, 97 Hill
Top 10 seasons: 22 Embiid, 96 Hardaway, 94 Pippen, 21 Embiid, 61 Baylor, 75 Gilmore, 96 Pippen, 62 Baylor, 72 Gilmore, 22 Butler
H2H record (1 season per player)
22 Embiid: 0.868 (33-5)
94 Pippen: 0.545 (18-15)
96 Hardaway: 0.500 (18-18)
75 Gilmore: 0.367 (11-19)
61 Baylor: 0.308 (8-18)
22 Butler: 0.259 (7-20)
Winner: 22 Embiid
There were 10 voters in this round: Ron Swanson, AEnigma, capfan33, Samurai, trelos6, trex_8063, falcolombardi, Mogspan, Proxy, Ginoboleee
A total of 34 seasons received at least 1 vote: 16 Green, 17 Westbrook, 20 Butler, 20 Doncic, 21 Doncic, 21 Embiid, 22 Butler, 22 Doncic, 22 Embiid, 58 Pettit, 59 Pettit, 61 Baylor, 62 Baylor, 62 Pettit, 63 Pettit, 69 Reed, 70 Reed, 71 Frazier, 72 Frazier, 72 Gilmore, 73 Frazier, 74 Lanier, 75 Gilmore, 87 McHale, 90 Stockton, 94 Miller, 94 Mutombo, 94 Pippen, 95 Miller, 95 Pippen, 96 Hardaway, 96 Pippen, 97 Hardaway, 97 Hill
Top 10 seasons: 22 Embiid, 96 Hardaway, 94 Pippen, 21 Embiid, 61 Baylor, 75 Gilmore, 96 Pippen, 62 Baylor, 72 Gilmore, 22 Butler
H2H record (1 season per player)
22 Embiid: 0.868 (33-5)
94 Pippen: 0.545 (18-15)
96 Hardaway: 0.500 (18-18)
75 Gilmore: 0.367 (11-19)
61 Baylor: 0.308 (8-18)
22 Butler: 0.259 (7-20)