Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3

[aminiaturebuddha]

Yeeesh.....vini_vidi_vici just hitting em upside the head with some cold hard facts lol

As always. The guy is consistently one of the most insightful, stat-driven posters on this board, and has been for a while. Full respect to him for his efforts.

[HumbleRen]

It’s funny how Cade, Barnes and Mobley all don’t really have that first step blow by ability.

Was watching Cade last night and that man legit has no burst.

Cade has the pace and handles to circumvent that limitation, Scottie has the strength and length and Mobley’s is being a 7 footer with great hands. Very interesting stuff lol.

[DG88]

It’s funny how Cade, Barnes and Mobley all don’t really have that first step blow by ability.

Was watching Cade last night and that man legit has no burst.

Cade has the pace and handles to circumvent that limitation, Scottie has the strength and length and Mobley’s is being a 7 footer with great hands. Very interesting stuff lol.

Biggest thing is their B-ball IQs as well for their age.

[HumbleRen]

It’s funny how Cade, Barnes and Mobley all don’t really have that first step blow by ability.

Was watching Cade last night and that man legit has no burst.

Cade has the pace and handles to circumvent that limitation, Scottie has the strength and length and Mobley’s is being a 7 footer with great hands. Very interesting stuff lol.

Biggest thing is their B-ball IQs as well for their age.

Yep, they all have a great feel for the game. The player that nails down the shooting aspect of the game is the one who's going to be the first to make a leap IMO.

[DG88]

It’s funny how Cade, Barnes and Mobley all don’t really have that first step blow by ability.

Was watching Cade last night and that man legit has no burst.

Cade has the pace and handles to circumvent that limitation, Scottie has the strength and length and Mobley’s is being a 7 footer with great hands. Very interesting stuff lol.

Biggest thing is their B-ball IQs as well for their age.

Yep, they all have a great feel for the game. The player that nails down the shooting aspect of the game is the one who's going to be the first to make a leap IMO.

I think will for all of them it's to what degree? Cade has the more fluid looking shot of the 3. Scottie is still more of a push shot though he's refined since his rookie year and this offseason. Mobley as well has a refined his shot over the offseason so we'll see.

[WuTang_CMB]

Didnt like what Cade brought last night. Still early but he's going to have trouble beating guys off the dribble with no burst.

Ivey I thought looked effortless getting into the lane. MAajor advantage when you have Ja type speed. Hopefully he can get a shot to compliment that.

[DG88]

Didnt like what Cade brought last night. Still early but he's going to have trouble beating guys off the dribble with no burst.

Ivey I thought looked effortless getting into the lane. MAajor advantage when you have Ja type speed. Hopefully he can get a shot to compliment that.

Cade was not good yesterday at all. Wasn't just the shot but the turnovers we just had. Still the first game of preseason. Just hope it's not a trend.

[PoundTown]

It’s funny how Cade, Barnes and Mobley all don’t really have that first step blow by ability.

Was watching Cade last night and that man legit has no burst.

Cade has the pace and handles to circumvent that limitation, Scottie has the strength and length and Mobley’s is being a 7 footer with great hands. Very interesting stuff lol.

Biggest thing is their B-ball IQs as well for their age.

Yep, they all have a great feel for the game. The player that nails down the shooting aspect of the game is the one who's going to be the first to make a leap IMO.

Jalen Green is going to have a dazzling bag of offensive tricks, and if he puts the effort in on D can be pretty good there as well. The question is that effort and if he's going to pass the ball and take good shots, or if he's going to be a volume type scorer. Or, is he just J Rich? lol. Eitehr way, was built to put the ball in the basket.

[HumbleRen]

Biggest thing is their B-ball IQs as well for their age.

Yep, they all have a great feel for the game. The player that nails down the shooting aspect of the game is the one who's going to be the first to make a leap IMO.

Jalen Green is going to have a dazzling bag of offensive tricks, and if he puts the effort in on D can be pretty good there as well. The question is that effort and if he's going to pass the ball and take good shots, or if he's going to be a volume type scorer. Or, is he just J Rich? lol. Eitehr way, was built to put the ball in the basket.

I love Jalen Green, it's just hard for shooting guards of that build to have a high floor though.

I'm on high on him though.

[Los_29]

There are definitely some major concerns with Cade. Him not being 6'8 was a big blow to his value, his average athleticism, poor shooting and his lack of creation.

This is right before the draft when Cade was being compared to other players in the top 5 and elite prospects in the past.

Scottie Barnes and Jalen Suggs are both projected outside of the top 3 in this year’s draft but they absolutely destroy Cade as efficient offensive hubs in terms of 2P% and assist:TOV ratio.

Scottie was actually in pretty elite territory here.

Scottie and Mobley turned out to be far more advanced than advertised. Both of them were seen as the two players in the top 5 that are the least NBA ready and they turned out to be the best.

Cade needs to improve his shooting just to get to the level of where Scottie and Mobley are and that's without Scottie and Mobley not making any improvements to their game which is extremely unlikely.

Cade has some catching up to do.

[whitehops]

I agree, his vision on drives isnt great, but yet, hes a very good facilitator...

Spoiler:

Why?

21.5% of his ASTs come out of the Post alone. Hes not a traditional drive and kick guy, that isnt an indictment on him.

Youre making my point, the fact Scottie has 0 gravity is such a boon on the fact hes able to score efficiently inside, I said this already.

if the expectation is that scottie is going to be running the offense for the raps eventually (not mine, btw), then he's going to have to be more of a drive and kick guy. if he's best at creating offense from the post then the offense would have to go out of their way just to get him in those situations - one of the reasons post ups are rarely run these days.

and that graphic doesn't paint the picture of a very good facilitator, more like an average one. his role-adjusted assist points being one of the highest grades is pretty telling.

[Yeezus_]

Zach Lowe was saying on his podcast that he thinks Barnes will be a superstar. He also was saying he'd hammer the over on the o/u win line of the Raptors.

[whitehops]

Yeeesh.....vini_vidi_vici just hitting em upside the head with some cold hard facts lol

As always. The guy is consistently one of the most insightful, stat-driven posters on this board, and has been for a while. Full respect to him for his efforts.

being stat-driven isn't a positive thing, imo. stats are based on what happens on the court so opinions and arguments should be based on that first - seeing what happens on the court.

and basketball stats, even today, are far far from perfect. so many of them are in the experimental stages, and including metrics into other equations just makes it more likely that those stats represent less.

to tie off the bow a lot of these new "advanced metrics" are given fancy titles that misrepresent what the stats say and what context is still lacking. a good example is VVV in the last page or two citing "true usage percentage" for ball handling responsibility but that stat doesn't factor in ball handling in any capacity. i don't blame VVV, i think any reasonable person would assume the term "true usage" was all-encompassing but obviously there's no regulation for that.

[CanadaB-Ball]

Yeeesh.....vini_vidi_vici just hitting em upside the head with some cold hard facts lol

As always. The guy is consistently one of the most insightful, stat-driven posters on this board, and has been for a while. Full respect to him for his efforts.

being stat-driven isn't a positive thing, imo. stats are based on what happens on the court so opinions and arguments should be based on that first - seeing what happens on the court.

and basketball stats, even today, are far far from perfect. so many of them are in the experimental stages, and including metrics into other equations just makes it more likely that those stats represent less.

to tie off the bow a lot of these new "advanced metrics" are given fancy titles that misrepresent what the stats say and what context is still lacking. a good example is VVV in the last page or two citing "true usage percentage" for ball handling responsibility but that stat doesn't factor in ball handling in any capacity. i don't blame VVV, i think any reasonable person would assume the term "true usage" was all-encompassing but obviously there's no regulation for that.

Just take the L, man.

[aminiaturebuddha]

Yeeesh.....vini_vidi_vici just hitting em upside the head with some cold hard facts lol

As always. The guy is consistently one of the most insightful, stat-driven posters on this board, and has been for a while. Full respect to him for his efforts.

being stat-driven isn't a positive thing, imo. stats are based on what happens on the court so opinions and arguments should be based on that first - seeing what happens on the court.

and basketball stats, even today, are far far from perfect. so many of them are in the experimental stages, and including metrics into other equations just makes it more likely that those stats represent less.

to tie off the bow a lot of these new "advanced metrics" are given fancy titles that misrepresent what the stats say and what context is still lacking. a good example is VVV in the last page or two citing "true usage percentage" for ball handling responsibility but that stat doesn't factor in ball handling in any capacity. i don't blame VVV, i think any reasonable person would assume the term "true usage" was all-encompassing but obviously there's no regulation for that.

Not sure why you would respond to a post of me giving respect to another poster (who has been here for a while and always provides quality posts) by trying to diminish what that poster does, but whatever, I'll bite.

Of course stats alone aren't the only way to understand the game. There is a lot that goes into basketball, including much that we never get a chance to see behind the scenes for teams and individual players. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. However, as it relates to this forum I much prefer posters who try to back up their insights and observations with actual arguments and facts instead of the "that guy is trash!!" kind of posting that seems to proliferate from a very vocal minority.

That said, of course you're free to disagree with the analysis and conclusions of people like VVV with your own analysis, and I appreciate that you also do that in a way that attempts to use valid arguments to support your position. My post was only about showing respect for posters who "show their work", and so in that case, on this forum, being "stat-driven" is much better than the alternative.

[whitehops]

Not sure why you would respond to a post of me giving respect to another poster (who has been here for a while and always provides quality posts) by trying to diminish what that poster does, but whatever, I'll bite.

Of course stats alone aren't the only way to understand the game. There is a lot that goes into basketball, including much that we never get a chance to see behind the scenes for teams and individual players. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. However, as it relates to this forum I much prefer posters who try to back up their insights and observations with actual arguments and facts instead of the "that guy is trash!!" kind of posting that seems to proliferate from a very vocal minority.

That said, of course you're free to disagree with the analysis and conclusions of people like VVV with your own analysis, and I appreciate that you also do that in a way that attempts to use valid arguments to support your position. My post was only about showing respect for posters who "show their work", and so in that case, on this forum, being "stat-driven" is much better than the alternative.

i wasn't trying to diminish what VVV does (I've and-1'd all their posts because of the effort put in), it was more a commentary that stats shouldn't be considered facts when stats are often flawed or misinterpreted. citing stats without knowing what the stats are based on is similar to commenting on games without watching them.

if stats are being provided over tape i think it's important those stats are at least represented properly.

[OakleyDokely]

What we saw from Cade last night was what we've seen from Cade his whole career, college and the NBA. He isn't someone who will blow by his defender off the dribble and finish strong at the rim. He needs to hit 3s efficiently and his midrange game needs to be above average otherwise I don't see a path to stardom.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I agree, his vision on drives isnt great, but yet, hes a very good facilitator...

Spoiler:

Why?

21.5% of his ASTs come out of the Post alone. Hes not a traditional drive and kick guy, that isnt an indictment on him.

Youre making my point, the fact Scottie has 0 gravity is such a boon on the fact hes able to score efficiently inside, I said this already.

if the expectation is that scottie is going to be running the offense for the raps eventually (not mine, btw), then he's going to have to be more of a drive and kick guy. if he's best at creating offense from the post then the offense would have to go out of their way just to get him in those situations - one of the reasons post ups are rarely run these days.

and that graphic doesn't paint the picture of a very good facilitator, more like an average one. his role-adjusted assist points being one of the highest grades is pretty telling.

It's pretty obvious that he can create his own post-ups. A lot of his drives are early turns into a post-up, whether it's scanned as that on the trackers or not is another thing, but it's not difficult to get him into those looks.

[brownbobcat]

No one is disagreeing with that part. People are disagreeing with your notion that teams are happy having guys like Conley and Maxey guard Scottie without help. That is just not true. That’s what people think is blasphemous lol.

If other teams are happy having those guys guard Scottie 1v1, then I'm happy too - it's a win-win

[HumbleRen]