Where do you think Kareem would be ranked all-time nowadays had he retired after 14 seasons as Wilt and Russell did

[Dutchball97]

I said barely any competition. This was obviously directed at being the best player in the league. There weren't many years he had to compete with other all-time great seasons. Just because you guys like Kareem you don't have to embellish his career. He's one of my all-time favs too and at least I'm being honest about his career.

Are these not all-time great seasons?

1970 West
1970 Reed
1972 Wilt
1972 Frazier
1975 Barry
1975 McAdoo
1977 Walton
1977 Julius
1978 Walton
1980 Julius

With all-time great I'm talking strong MVP level seasons that would come out on top in multiple years. A couple of these can definitely be argued but not all, I don't have much time at the moment but I wouldn't mind taking a closer look this weekend.

[penbeast0]

I said barely any competition. This was obviously directed at being the best player in the league. There weren't many years he had to compete with other all-time great seasons. Just because you guys like Kareem you don't have to embellish his career. He's one of my all-time favs too and at least I'm being honest about his career.

Are these not all-time great seasons?

1970 West
1970 Reed
1972 Wilt
1972 Frazier
1975 Barry
1975 McAdoo
1977 Walton
1977 Julius
1978 Walton
1980 Julius

We have different standards of ATG season. Terrific seasons, but not something I think gets you into the ATG peaks discussion for any except 77 Walton and 77 Erving (ABA), 72 Frazier maybe.

[70sFan]

I said barely any competition. This was obviously directed at being the best player in the league. There weren't many years he had to compete with other all-time great seasons. Just because you guys like Kareem you don't have to embellish his career. He's one of my all-time favs too and at least I'm being honest about his career.

Are these not all-time great seasons?

1970 West
1970 Reed
1972 Wilt
1972 Frazier
1975 Barry
1975 McAdoo
1977 Walton
1977 Julius
1978 Walton
1980 Julius

We have different standards of ATG season. Terrific seasons, but not something I think gets you into the ATG peaks discussion for any except 77 Walton and 77 Erving (ABA), 72 Frazier maybe.

So you wouldn't consider 1970 West for ATG peaks discussion? Really? He carried injured Lakers team throughout the RS and had an outstanding postseason run (as always). How is this season any less impressive than the best guards from the 2000s like Kobe or Wade?

1970 Reed wasn't ATG level? His postseason run was historical, facing three of the greatest centers ever and posting excellent numbers across the board, while playing elite defense as well. For those who like accolades, he also won MVP, FMVP, all-nba first team and all-defensive first team.

1972 Wilt isn't in discussion for ATG season only because he had better seasons than this earlier in his career. He was the leader and the anchor of arguably the best team in NBA history and had one of the greatest defensive performances in the playoffs history.

You may be lower on guys like Big Mac or Barry, but these mentions are legit.

[penbeast0]

Looking at the 70s great peaks project going on and currently at #37:

#4 Kareem 77
(#5 Wilt 67, which I have on a different level than his older version 72 run)
(#15 West 66, you are right that 70 is an ATG season)
#17 Walton 77
#22 Erving 76 (ABA)
. . .
Barry got 2 mentions in the 37 vote though I was never a fan of his, Reed got 1, both will probably go top 50. Maybe I just think of ATG as competitive for top 20 which may be too high a standard.

[70sFan]

I think Reed's defense is quite underrated. He was a very willing perimeter defender and played key part in Knicks trapping defense. He was also a bruising post defender and solid (though not great) rim protector.

[HeartBreakKid]

I said barely any competition. This was obviously directed at being the best player in the league. There weren't many years he had to compete with other all-time great seasons.

But there was competition.

From 1970-1973 you had Wilt, West, Frazier, Reed, Cowens and Havlicek with West and Wilt having Medium to Strong MVP Caliber seasons.

From 1974-1976 [Pre-Merger] Bob Lanier, Rick Barry and Bob McAdoo all contributed to MVP level seasons [Clearly the weakest period of the 1970s but is it any weaker than 2003-2006?

Then in the late 1970s guys like Bill Walton had a tremendous peak [Clearly Top 15-20 and rivaling the likes of Garnett and better than Kobe/Dirk] and not to mention do-it-all Bobby Jones, Julius Erving and George Gervin providing talent to the wing positions.

As for total, direct competition, I would include West, Wilt, Erving and Walton as players who had years which were in the same breath as Kareem during the 1970s. Is that much different than Shaq/KG/Dirk/Kobe?

Just because you guys like Kareem you don't have to embellish his career. He's one of my all-time favs too and at least I'm being honest about his career.

Kareem isn't one of my favorite players and I definitely don't embellish his career.

It is unfortunate when someone disagrees with you and then you need to jump to these statements and implications. You stating this makes you no different then the banned posters around here who claim all of us are Duncan Fans or anyone else insinuating "Fans of Player X suck".

I've got a gaggle of people jumping on a throwaway comment I made 2 weeks ago, not something that is uncommon on this board lately but definitely unproductive.

If I'm getting accused of all kinds of things again, fine. If I turn it around, I'm no better than posters who deserved bans apparently. Great.

Two weeks ago isn't a very long time ago. It's not like we are sitting here tracking when your post are new and hot.

If your opinion hasn't changed in the past two weeks (and based on your replies it doesn't seem like it has), why do you keep mentioning it was two weeks ago?

If you are saying you were being hyperbolic then just say that. And no, I am not a Kareem fan and he wasn't even in my top 5 until like 2 years ago.

[Dutchball97]

But there was competition.

From 1970-1973 you had Wilt, West, Frazier, Reed, Cowens and Havlicek with West and Wilt having Medium to Strong MVP Caliber seasons.

From 1974-1976 [Pre-Merger] Bob Lanier, Rick Barry and Bob McAdoo all contributed to MVP level seasons [Clearly the weakest period of the 1970s but is it any weaker than 2003-2006?

Then in the late 1970s guys like Bill Walton had a tremendous peak [Clearly Top 15-20 and rivaling the likes of Garnett and better than Kobe/Dirk] and not to mention do-it-all Bobby Jones, Julius Erving and George Gervin providing talent to the wing positions.

As for total, direct competition, I would include West, Wilt, Erving and Walton as players who had years which were in the same breath as Kareem during the 1970s. Is that much different than Shaq/KG/Dirk/Kobe?



Kareem isn't one of my favorite players and I definitely don't embellish his career.

It is unfortunate when someone disagrees with you and then you need to jump to these statements and implications. You stating this makes you no different then the banned posters around here who claim all of us are Duncan Fans or anyone else insinuating "Fans of Player X suck".

I've got a gaggle of people jumping on a throwaway comment I made 2 weeks ago, not something that is uncommon on this board lately but definitely unproductive.

If I'm getting accused of all kinds of things again, fine. If I turn it around, I'm no better than posters who deserved bans apparently. Great.

Two weeks ago isn't a very long time ago. It's not like we are sitting here tracking when your post are new and hot.

If your opinion hasn't changed in the past two weeks (and based on your replies it doesn't seem like it has), why do you keep mentioning it was two weeks ago?

If you are saying you were being hyperbolic then just say that. And no, I am not a Kareem fan and he wasn't even in my top 5 until like 2 years ago.

Because it's weird for the entire Kareem Defense Force to come out when I wasn't even arguing Duncan over Kareem. I was only saying it's not as easy as Kareem being better than Duncan because of years on top because they didn't face the same level of competition. It was such a small and tame comment that yes I think it's strange for someone to bring it up 2 weeks later. It basically comes down to what are you guys moaning about.

[70sFan]

Someone came back after two weeks with the answer and the discussion started again, I don't find it that strange on Internet forum to be honest.

Maybe we disagree because of your evaluation of the whole decade of NBA, not because we are "Kareem Defense Force". I often hear how the X era is so weak compared to the Y. In most cases, it's just talking with little argumentation. No, I disagree that 1970s is a weak era. Few people call 1990s a weak era and a lot of criticism of the 1970s applies to the 1990s just fine.

[Dutchball97]

Someone came back after two weeks with the answer and the discussion started again, I don't find it that strange on Internet forum to be honest.

Maybe we disagree because of your evaluation of the whole decade of NBA, not because we are "Kareem Defense Force". I often hear how the X era is so weak compared to the Y. In most cases, it's just talking with little argumentation. No, I disagree that 1970s is a weak era. Few people call 1990s a weak era and a lot of criticism of the 1970s applies to the 1990s just fine.

You've already shown the 70s isn't the same all the way through but I assumed people already knew that. When I call the 70s weak I mean the middle part is one of the weakest in NBA history and that's exactly where most people place Kareem's peak, while the early and late 70s are solid but not exceptional times.

I also didn't bring up the 90s as a comparison because I agree it's really not that much better overall even though the first few years are still as good as most of the 80s. I explicitly only compared the 70s to the 00s and 10s, which I do feel like the latter decades come out on top decisively.

[70sFan]

Someone came back after two weeks with the answer and the discussion started again, I don't find it that strange on Internet forum to be honest.

Maybe we disagree because of your evaluation of the whole decade of NBA, not because we are "Kareem Defense Force". I often hear how the X era is so weak compared to the Y. In most cases, it's just talking with little argumentation. No, I disagree that 1970s is a weak era. Few people call 1990s a weak era and a lot of criticism of the 1970s applies to the 1990s just fine.

You've already shown the 70s isn't the same all the way through but I assumed people already knew that. When I call the 70s weak I mean the middle part is one of the weakest in NBA history and that's exactly where most people place Kareem's peak, while the early and late 70s are solid but not exceptional times.

I also didn't bring up the 90s as a comparison because I agree it's really not that much better overall even though the first few years are still as good as most of the 80s. I explicitly only compared the 70s to the 00s and 10s, which I do feel like the latter decades come out on top decisively.

Most people place Kareem's peak in 1977 and it was after the merger when the league certainly wasn't weak.

In terms of top tier talent, how is 2012-14 not weak? We have LeBron, Durant and forever injured Paul. I don't think 2005-08 was that strong either.

[CharityStripe34]

Still Top-5 and arguably Top-3 for me (I have him a firm #2 behind Jordan). People overrate post-prime longevity.

Took the exact words I was thinking. Had he retired in 1983 he's easily still a Top 5 all-time great and I would have him Top 3 at worst. A bevy of MVPs with multiple Finals appearances and three titles is still incredible. Especially with the individual brilliance.

[prolific passer]

Going out with a sweep might hurt Kareem a bit. Going out in 85 with a championship and finals mvp after losing the previous 2 finals sounds better.