Jaivl wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:I just can’t believe we’re really comparing having a lesser load on offense to going from a guy whose physical attributes were listed as a con coming out of college to a guy whose physical attributes are enough to warrant a lottery pick pick alone on defense
???
Your point was that KG-sized Green would be, by leaps and bounds, the GOAT defender.
Counterpoint is that, when shouldering a similar offensive load to Green (probably still bigger, but eh),
post-prime KG clearly
has (has, as in "actually happened") the most impressive defensive signals avaliable (on the databall era), being every big-sample version of RAPM, on/off, absolute defenses managed, whatever... so Green improving to the point of being clearly the GOAT and hence having the GOAT signals is... not really an advantage? As it kinda is KG's baseline. Unless you think he would be tier(s) ahead.
Moreso considering your take is certainly defensible, but also certainly disagreeable. Don't think it's a reach to claim KG is *the* best positioned defender ever as it is, with his "real" brain (lol), and ultimately the things preventing him having the GOAT defensive career are 1) era 2) offensive load 3) strength/mass to climb that tier/half-tier that separates him from the GOAT rim protectors, things KG-sized Dray also would not have in his favour.
In an absolute sense, I agree Celtics KG is probably the best defensive multi year stretch in nba history
2015-2017 draymond’s up there as well though in my opinion, as far as seperation from his peers go his PI DRAPM isn’t quite on the leve of Celtics KG but I think It’s probably the second best 3 year stretch over Duncan’s , altho PIRAPM is just multiyear from his Dropbox with less weight for earlier years right? I’d be curious to see how drays 2017 year stacks up vs KGs in 3 year prior multiyear RAPM, whereas in NPI RAPM he’s just slightly below Boston KG .
His playoff DRAPM is slightly higher than KGs (for a data set up to 1998-2019 to be fair) although I’d assume Boston KGs specifically would probably be higher then 2015-2019 dray , although I’d also be curious to see how their peers rank in that stretch, since it looks like most of the higher values were 2000s to early 2010s, checking it a bit 9 of the top 10 guys played almost all their playoff minutes pre 2015, although obv since it’s 1999-2019 it’s not definitive
I think garnett, and def Boston garnett, is a better defender than dray, sure, and I’m not against the argument that in an absolute sense he’s the best defender either.
At the same time, I don’t think it would be that much of a shocker if drays prime defensive years in the playoffs had similar outlier impact to Garnett’s right? At least relative to his peers
LEBRONs a bit weird for the playoffs for me, altho I guess that’s the nature of bunching multiple years together, but drays dominance there is notable there example, esp vs how it rates his regular season and given that it tends to over value high shot blocking types
Like, my overall point is, in the databall era in terms of overall seasons, as far as I know garnetts Boston years do stand alone, drays probably somewhere in that 2-5 range throughout his prime in terms of consistency and dominance over his peers, arguably 2nd.
If we’re talking about playoffs, which is where most of his defensive value shines, it’s hard to get any data on that other than he ranks very slightly above garnett in that regard, with there being at least a little bit of evidence that doing so might be a good deal harder than it was, with the obvious caveat that includes more non peak defensive kg years than dray years (like 66% vs 88% are their good defensive peak years)
Like, I think Garnett’s better, solidly, but esp in the playoffs I think it’s comparable sure.
If you give draymond Garnett’s body I do think that basically instantly becomes multiple tiers above anything we’ve ever seen on defense in terms of raw ability, that includes Boston garnett, and in an absolute sense Russell as well
Obviously it’s all hypothetical, but Idk man like dray might have a top 10 defensive peak ever with the physical tools you’d expect out of a late first round pick, it’s like one of those “give curry giannis’s body where does he rank” comparisons to me
