Guards peaks ahead of Jerry West

[Matt15]

Ahead for sure: MJ, Magic
Have a case: Kobe, Curry, Wade, Oscar

[Cavsfansince84]

Ahead for sure: MJ, Magic
Have a case: Kobe, Curry, Wade, Oscar

I wonder though if that would be the case if West had won a title in 66 or 69 where he came within a basket of winning them.

[AEnigma]

Ahead for sure: MJ, Magic
Have a case: Kobe, Curry, Wade, Oscar

I wonder though if that would be the case if West had won a title in 66 or 69 where he came within a basket of winning them.

What if Magic won in 1984? What if the Lakers had been healthy in 1989 and 1991? What if Magic had not been pressured to stay out of the league following his AIDS diagnosis???

[Cavsfansince84]

Ahead for sure: MJ, Magic
Have a case: Kobe, Curry, Wade, Oscar

I wonder though if that would be the case if West had won a title in 66 or 69 where he came within a basket of winning them.

What if Magic won in 1984? What if the Lakers had been healthy in 1989 and 1991? What if Magic had not been pressured to stay out of the league following his AIDS diagnosis???

Well, the difference I am getting at is Magic already has a ring(s) in what's viewed as a peak year so adding more rings doesn't change much here. With West he got his ring in a season that isn't really close to his peak and with maybe his worst playoff run. A ring for him in 66 or 69 is a different thing altogether I would say when he gets compared to Magic, Wade or whoever.

[ceoofkobefans]

MJ
Kobe
Magic
Wade

Then maybe CP3 Oscar and Nash (a lot less confident in Nash)

MJ kobe and Magic are all clear offensively MJ clears on D at their overall peaks I’d prolly give a slight edge to Kobe defensively and west clears magic defensively but the offensive gap is bigger

I put him over CP3 for offense and Oscar for defense but those 3 are essentially interchangeable

Why do you think Kobe is clearly better on offense?

I don't see much of a case for Kobe defensively, even peak-wise.

I don’t think west does much better than Kobe offensively other than shoot 3s and pass but Kobe is still an elite passer and 3pt shooter

Depending on what you think west’s peak is. We don’t have much film on west so it’s hard to know how good he was for sure but I think he was prolly a better defender in 69 than 65 or 66 (which is usually considered as his single year peak). 65 66 west would be closer to a neutral on D prolly for me but I’d have 69 West at ≈ a +.5 which is where I the range I have 08 Kobe at.

[ceoofkobefans]

West definitely does not have the peak advantage over Kobe

[70sFan]

I don’t think west does much better than Kobe offensively other than shoot 3s and pass but Kobe is still an elite passer and 3pt shooter

Isn't that alone a big advantage though? I think West was a clearly better at drawing fouls and along with other advantages, it gives him a notable edge as a scorer.

Depending on what you think west’s peak is. We don’t have much film on west so it’s hard to know how good he was for sure but I think he was prolly a better defender in 69 than 65 or 66 (which is usually considered as his single year peak). 65 66 west would be closer to a neutral on D prolly for me but I’d have 69 West at ≈ a +.5 which is where I the range I have 08 Kobe at.

Wait, based on what do you think 1965-66 West was neutral on defense? Is it based on the footage watched? Then I strongly disagree with that.

[70sFan]

West definitely does not have the peak advantage over Kobe

Again, being a better scorer and better defender gives him a clear edge to me. I think it's reasonable to put Kobe ahead, but saying that West "definitely does not have the peak advantage" is not something I can agree with.

[Samurai]

I don’t think west does much better than Kobe offensively other than shoot 3s and pass but Kobe is still an elite passer and 3pt shooter

I don't think anyone knows whether West would be a better 3-point shooter than Kobe since West never made a 3-pointer in an NBA game. We can speculate, and I personally believe he would be based on my years of watching him play, but there is no data to support that. Then I suppose it depends on what the definition of "elite" is. I think it means that one would be among the best in a group or population segment, maybe among the top 8-10 or top 12-15 in the league (depending on league size). Kobe was a career 33% shooter from deep while league average was between 35% to 36% during his career. I personally would not categorize a below-average 3-point shooter to be 'elite'. In terms of passing, we do know that West led the league in assists/game once and was in the top ten 6 other times. Kobe had two top 20 finishes in his career (14th in 2003 and 19th in 2008). I would probably categorize that as 'solid' or 'decent' but would not consider that to be an elite passer.

[ceoofkobefans]

I don’t think west does much better than Kobe offensively other than shoot 3s and pass but Kobe is still an elite passer and 3pt shooter

Isn't that alone a big advantage though? I think West was a clearly better at drawing fouls and along with other advantages, it gives him a notable edge as a scorer.

Depending on what you think west’s peak is. We don’t have much film on west so it’s hard to know how good he was for sure but I think he was prolly a better defender in 69 than 65 or 66 (which is usually considered as his single year peak). 65 66 west would be closer to a neutral on D prolly for me but I’d have 69 West at ≈ a +.5 which is where I the range I have 08 Kobe at.

Wait, based on what do you think 1965-66 West was neutral on defense? Is it based on the footage watched? Then I strongly disagree with that.

I wouldn’t say Kobe is clear as a scorer but there’s a noticeable gap between the two. I’d put west in that 7-9 tier as a scorer and Kobe is a better playmaker


There isn’t much footage on West but he doesn’t look very impressive in the footage we have imo and the lakers defense was 1.76 points better per game in the games he missed in 67 and 68 (although the offense is 7 points worse so they likely defensively slanted but that’s still pretty significant of a slant idk if the lakers had any really good defenders on the bench getting more Minutes which would cause this or something idk)

[70sFan]

I wouldn’t say Kobe is clear as a scorer but there’s a noticeable gap between the two. I’d put west in that 7-9 tier as a scorer and Kobe is a better playmaker

I agree, West has noticeable edge over Kobe as a scorer:

2001-10 Kobe: 28.1 pp75 on +2.8 rTS%
1962-71 West: 21.6 pp75 on +6.8 rTS%

The gap in volume is overstated by significantly more possessions per game.

I don't see any reason to call Kobe a clearly better playmaker either.

There isn’t much footage on West but he doesn’t look very impressive in the footage we have imo and the lakers defense was 1.76 points better per game in the games he missed in 67 and 68 (although the offense is 7 points worse so they likely defensively slanted but that’s still pretty significant of a slant idk if the lakers had any really good defenders on the bench getting more Minutes which would cause this or something idk)

Wow, it's the first time I have seen someone calling West's available defense unimpressive

We don't have the pace for partial periods of the season, so it's impossible to say how Lakers defense was without West.