Pistons/Pelicans preseason game chat.

[Manocad]

Bummer on Bagley. Does clear the lane for Duren to get a lot of early run, though, and he's shown he deserves it, IMO.

I hope so. I don't see him as being as raw as some others do.

[buzzkilloton]

Iveys going to be a elite tanking weapon this season.

Meaning he'll help create more losses? If that's what you mean I'd be interested in hearing the reasoning. Right now he looks like he will be one of the team's improvements this season.

Meaning hes going to be inefficient and turn the ball over alot because hes a raw rookie. Doesnt mean I'm not bullish long term. I'm just realistic with rookie production and expect him to be a negative on the win total this season.

[buzzkilloton]

Iveys going to be a elite tanking weapon this season.

Meaning he'll help create more losses? If that's what you mean I'd be interested in hearing the reasoning. Right now he looks like he will be one of the team's improvements this season.

I interpret that statement to suggest Ivey will experience growing pains and his fair share of rookie mistakes which will likely not be conducive to winning games, not that he'll be a bad player long term. Nobody has a crystal ball to know anything about that.

Exactly obv I'm bullish long term as I was all off season hoping to draft him. I just expect year one to be rough which is fine with me as were a year away from where I want to be.

[Manocad]

Iveys going to be a elite tanking weapon this season.

Meaning he'll help create more losses? If that's what you mean I'd be interested in hearing the reasoning. Right now he looks like he will be one of the team's improvements this season.

Meaning hes going to be inefficient and turn the ball over alot because hes a raw rookie. Doesnt mean I'm not bullish long term. I'm just realistic with rookie production and expect him to be a negative on the win total this season.

What about him is raw? I thought he looked pretty polished for a rookie. I don't think it's written in stone that all rookies will be inefficient and turn the ball over a lot.

[buzzkilloton]

Meaning he'll help create more losses? If that's what you mean I'd be interested in hearing the reasoning. Right now he looks like he will be one of the team's improvements this season.

Meaning hes going to be inefficient and turn the ball over alot because hes a raw rookie. Doesnt mean I'm not bullish long term. I'm just realistic with rookie production and expect him to be a negative on the win total this season.

What about him is raw? I thought he looked pretty polished for a rookie. I don't think it's written in stone that all rookies will be inefficient and turn the ball over a lot.

Doesnt look polished at all to me. Hes playing wayyyyyy to fast right now. He needs the game to slow down. Normally NBA athletes I've heard on pods say it takes a least towards the end of year one for that to happen as rookies.

[Cowology]

Dude is super raw, but he also already brings an elite skillset (rebounding) which in this league is usually enough to get minutes. In fact specialists are generally more desirable than these sorta jack-of-all-trades types that do a lot of things well but nothing great.

Still going to be a lot of growing pains, but that elite skillset will give him the opportunity to stay on the floor and work on other parts of his game. Provided he stays outa foul trouble.

I'll be curious to see who he develops chemistry with. I know all the hype is on getting Cade an outlet, but the Hayes/Duren hookup could be legit if we can put enough shooters around them.

[kellmellus50]

We're going to have a bunch of kids starting we're going to get blown out sad to say, just like last game.

[Manocad]

Dude is super raw, but he also already brings an elite skillset (rebounding) which in this league is usually enough to get minutes. In fact specialists are generally more desirable than these sorta jack-of-all-trades types that do a lot of things well but nothing great.

Still going to be a lot of growing pains, but that elite skillset will give him the opportunity to stay on the floor and work on other parts of his game. Provided he stays outa foul trouble.

I'll be curious to see who he develops chemistry with. I know all the hype is on getting Cade an outlet, but the Hayes/Duren hookup could be legit if we can put enough shooters around them.

Assuming the intention was to add two cents to the current discussion, you're in the middle of a debate about how raw (or not) Ivey is.

[Manocad]

Meaning hes going to be inefficient and turn the ball over alot because hes a raw rookie. Doesnt mean I'm not bullish long term. I'm just realistic with rookie production and expect him to be a negative on the win total this season.

What about him is raw? I thought he looked pretty polished for a rookie. I don't think it's written in stone that all rookies will be inefficient and turn the ball over a lot.

Doesnt look polished at all to me. Hes playing wayyyyyy to fast right now. He needs the game to slow down. Normally NBA athletes I've heard on pods say it takes a least towards the end of year one for that to happen as rookies.

Then we have a different definition of "raw." Raw, like uncooked food, is generally used to describe a lack of development. I don't see Ivey as being undeveloped. I see a rookie who clearly needs to adjust to the NBA game which applies to about 99% of rookies. Taking a year to fix things the player can't do yet? Sure. But I don't see it taking Ivey a year to learn to basically just play the NBA way rather than the college way.

[kellmellus50]

Back to the game:So far Pistons showing they can't win games with the lineup they have, that can play.

Tue, Oct 4
@
New York
New York
L117-96 0-1 Ivey 16 Duren 14 Hayes 5
Fri, Oct 7
@
New Orleans
New Orleans
L107-101 0-2 Bey 23 Bey 7 Cunningham 8
Tue, Oct 11
vs
Oklahoma City
Oklahoma City
L115-99 0-3 Hayes 20 Duren 10 Hayes 7

[whitehops]

What about him is raw? I thought he looked pretty polished for a rookie. I don't think it's written in stone that all rookies will be inefficient and turn the ball over a lot.

he's been inefficient and turning the ball over a lot in his three pre season games, i wouldn't exactly call that polished.

and i don't know what you mean by written in stone but historically rookies (especially rookie guards) are inefficient scorers and there are very very few exceptions. even the most prolific scorers (lebron, durant, doncic, etc.) shot well under league average. steph curry and michael jordan are the only two exceptions i can think of.

and i too wouldn't call ivey raw but some of his on-ball skills are underdeveloped. i suspect he'll play more off-ball in the regular season than he has this preseason.

[Cowology]

Dude is super raw, but he also already brings an elite skillset (rebounding) which in this league is usually enough to get minutes. In fact specialists are generally more desirable than these sorta jack-of-all-trades types that do a lot of things well but nothing great.

Still going to be a lot of growing pains, but that elite skillset will give him the opportunity to stay on the floor and work on other parts of his game. Provided he stays outa foul trouble.

I'll be curious to see who he develops chemistry with. I know all the hype is on getting Cade an outlet, but the Hayes/Duren hookup could be legit if we can put enough shooters around them.

Assuming the intention was to add two cents to the current discussion, you're in the middle of a debate about how raw (or not) Ivey is.

thx, at some point last night I got confused after bouncing between a few topics.

[Manocad]

What about him is raw? I thought he looked pretty polished for a rookie. I don't think it's written in stone that all rookies will be inefficient and turn the ball over a lot.

he's been inefficient and turning the ball over a lot in his three pre season games, i wouldn't exactly call that polished.

and i don't know what you mean by written in stone but historically rookies (especially rookie guards) are inefficient scorers and there are very very few exceptions. even the most prolific scorers (lebron, durant, doncic, etc.) shot well under league average. steph curry and michael jordan are the only two exceptions i can think of.

and i too wouldn't call ivey raw but some of his on-ball skills are underdeveloped. i suspect he'll play more off-ball in the regular season than he has this preseason.

As I answered in another post, "raw" in the context I use it, like uncooked meat, means undeveloped. And I think it's generally accepted in NBA terms that's in reference to physical skills--can't hit a 3 due to lacking lift/range, can't dribble, can't make a decent pass, can't keep his hands on a loose ball, bad footwork/no post moves, poor shot form, etc. Simply missing shots, taking bad shots, making ill-advised passes...that's just playing smarter/getting used to the speed of the NBA.

Certainly a rookie doing well right off the bat is the exception to the rule, but there are a LOT more exceptions than just Steph Curry and Jordan. The point was simply that "rookie" does not equal "WILL struggle and contribute to an increased number of losses."

[whitehops]

As I answered in another post, "raw" in the context I use it, like uncooked meat, means undeveloped. And I think it's generally accepted in NBA terms that's in reference to physical skills--can't hit a 3 due to lacking lift/range, can't dribble, can't make a decent pass, can't keep his hands on a loose ball, bad footwork/no post moves, poor shot form, etc. Simply missing shots, taking bad shots, making ill-advised passes...that's just playing smarter/getting used to the speed of the NBA.

Certainly a rookie doing well right off the bat is the exception to the rule, but there are a LOT more exceptions than just Steph Curry and Jordan. The point was simply that "rookie" does not equal "WILL struggle and contribute to an increased number of losses."

it's not 100% certain but it is very likely. i get that speaking in absolutes isn't the best but it does save time so you don't have to qualify every statement you make.

also, i know raw is a very common term but i think a player being "undercooked" should be a thing too, just keeping with the food theme. players past their prime over overripe.

[Manocad]

As I answered in another post, "raw" in the context I use it, like uncooked meat, means undeveloped. And I think it's generally accepted in NBA terms that's in reference to physical skills--can't hit a 3 due to lacking lift/range, can't dribble, can't make a decent pass, can't keep his hands on a loose ball, bad footwork/no post moves, poor shot form, etc. Simply missing shots, taking bad shots, making ill-advised passes...that's just playing smarter/getting used to the speed of the NBA.

Certainly a rookie doing well right off the bat is the exception to the rule, but there are a LOT more exceptions than just Steph Curry and Jordan. The point was simply that "rookie" does not equal "WILL struggle and contribute to an increased number of losses."

it's not 100% certain but it is very likely. i get that speaking in absolutes isn't the best but it does save time so you don't have to qualify every statement you make.

also, i know raw is a very common term but i think a player being "undercooked" should be a thing too, just keeping with the food theme. players past their prime over overripe.

I've said before that I'll give anyone a pass when it's clear by the context that elimination of the "IMO" or "From what I see my guess is..." type of verbiage is simply for brevity. I'll only bust someone's chops on an assertion if it's clear by the context that they DO mean it in an absolute sense, and generally only after the assertion not only turns out wrong, but 180 degrees wrong.

"Hayes will be a bust" would always get a pass.
"Hayes will be a bust because there's ample correlative data from other players to suggest that if he hasn't put it together after parts of two seasons he never will, and it's better to eat his salary and move on from him now" and then Hayes does hypothetically put it together in his third season...yeah, I'm gonna be busting chops on that one.