Dutchball97 wrote:70sFan wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:You hope we won't reach common ground? We might be having a bit of a miscommunication there as it's not my intention to dismiss all your points, just that we're a bit too far on some topics that we likely won't change each other's minds on that.
That was a mistake from my part, I thought you said that we will reach a common ground, I just don't know why. Sorry for that miscommunication.The 4-peat part is a good indication of how convoluted this has gotten. I was under the assumption this was about peaks at first, then I realized it was about careers, then got corrected that now we are actually discussing peaks, only for it now to come back to careers again. I think you'd agree as well with the notion that surrounding years can strengthen a 1-year peak season by showing the player in question was able to reach or at least close in on his peak form with some matter of consistency. If Kareem had his 1974 season or equivalent in 1973 or arguably even in 1972 then that would likely help my view of his 1971 season if anything. It's not that Kareem didn't show on many occassions that he could be the most dominant player in the league, while also leading his team to great success but the problem (at least to me it isn't ideal) is that it didn't consistently happen year after year.
Fair enough, I just think the lack of rings doesn't change the fact that Kareem showed remarkable consistency. To me, Kareem was clearly the best player in the league for many seasons and I don't view lack of rings as lack of "great success". What Kareem did in 1974 was nothing short of incredible and I don't view that as anything less than what Jordan did in 1991. Even 1972 has the case, they just run into another ATG team with injured Oscar.In that sense Jordan is helped by having his best seasons in a cluster (88-93) because that makes his peak season look slightly less like an outlier than say 1974 for Kareem due to 1973 and 1975 not having the most spectacular endings for the Bucks.
Wait, why do you put 1988-90 into that group? What makes 1988 more impressive than 1972?Again, this is all relative as many all-time greats would love to have a season like Kareem's 1973 but when comparing it to some of his more succesful seasons it doesn't hold up as much imo.
It's true, his 1973 was relatively down year, but then again - Kareem had 1977 and 1980 on top tier level too.Similarly it does help Jordan in a way that he missed 94 and only played a part of 95 compared to Kareem playing full seasons but missing the play-offs in 75 and 76.
Does it make any sense though? Should we praise Jordan for missing these seasons compared to 1976, which was an excellent year for Kareem?
I don't know, Kareem peaked on a poorly constructed team in 1977 and he had no shot at winning the title in that year. What makes it less impressive than what Jordan did in 1989 or 1990? To me, Kareem has a very reasonable peak argument against anyone.
MJ's 1988 isn't necessarily better than Kareem's 1972, they're actually eerily similar. The thing is that MJ's prime ramps up to 1991 with it standing out as a clear pinnacle, while Kareem's best years come more in waves. For most guys they follow a general career path getting better untill somewhere in their mid-late 20s, stay around that level for a bit and then start ramping down in their 30s. With Kareem it's almost more random in which years he'll have his best showings, which makes it harder to pinpoint when exactly he was at his best. This makes it mostly an optical thing but when comparing insanely dominant seasons it's hard to not want to look for some kind of x-factor that sets one apart from the other.
In a way that means I agree with you that MJ having the best peak isn't this set in stone certainty but in a sea of legitimate contenders I personally see Jordan's 91 season as the most convincing. I've always said I'm simply looking for small differences in comparisons between all-time greats at their best because advanced stats, whether boxscore or +-, aren't the most accurate when comparing between different seasons, especially when we're talking about these huge outliers like Jordan and Kareem who constantly break the scales. Tbh I usually don't spend too much time worrying about peak seasons because of this, it's much more practical to find significant seperation in careers than peaks.
I think we can respectfully disagree at this point. As long as we can discuss about these things without harm, I am grateful for your participation in this discussion. I definitely respect your opinion about Jordan's peak, in the end it's not absurd to have him at the top
I also agree that sometimes we focus too much on single peaks. I prefer looking at sustained peaks, along with full careers of course. To me, player's top 3-5 seasons tell you significantly more about his real "peak" than one season. I don't think it's just big enough of a sample.
