People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[mysticOscar]

I'll keep parroting this.

MJ midrange and general shooting ability off the catch makes him way more effective off the ball.

LeBron struggles with this throughout his career.

Insert LeBron or GSW or the recent Spurs team and the same system just doesn't work.

MJ can easily play the same system that LeBron plays, and I'm sure MJ will have the same success that LeBron has.

But where MJ is able to do with his skillet is play a more team oriented system.

[70sFan]

I'll keep parroting this.

MJ midrange and general shooting ability off the catch makes him way more effective off the ball.

LeBron struggles with this throughout his career.

Insert LeBron or GSW or the recent Spurs team and the same system just doesn't work.

James played off-ball in Miami and they had comparable offensive success to Jordan Bulls, so I think it worked reasonably well.

MJ can easily play the same system that LeBron plays, and I'm sure MJ will have the same success that LeBron has.

Based on what we have seen in 1989, I don't think it's true. Bulls finished with +1.3 (109.1) rORtg in that season and when Jordan turned into full-time PG in the last 2 months, their offense didn't change (109.5 ORtg). That's not the same success James had in 2009 or 2010 and I wouldn't say he played with significantly worse teammates.

But where MJ is able to do with his skillet is play a more team oriented system.

His team oriented system means Jordan taking as many shots as he wanted? Come on, Jordan didn't scale down to his teammates.

[NO-KG-AI]

James played off-ball in Miami and they had comparable offensive success to Jordan Bulls, so I think it worked reasonably well.

I don't think that's true at all. The Heat were 3rd, 8th, 2nd and 5th in those 4 years, and Wade and Bosh are better and more dynamic threats than Pippen was offensively.

The Bulls were 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 9th in the title runs. Aside from 98 really, when people were old and hurt, the Bulls were consistently more effective offensively and stood out in terms of offensive rating all time and compared to their league in a much bigger way than the Heat ever did. Honestly those Heat numbers are pretty disappointing considering how much talent they had offensively.

The Bulls posted offensive ratings similar to the 16-18 Warriors, the late 80's Lakers, (The list of top o-ratings is now littered with team from the Covid shortened seasons without crowds and stuff, and it's pretty clear those years can be tossed in terms of best offenses ever TBH. The Heat's best offense of 112.3 rating is over 2 points worse than the 3rd best Bulls rating. Those Bulls posted 5 offensive ratings better than any the Heat ever had, some being during one of the biggest slogs offensively in the mid 90's.

[Homer38]

I don't think a player like Kyrie would have had over 25 PPG in a playoff series with Jordan taking so many shots in a game....

[Homer38]

James played off-ball in Miami and they had comparable offensive success to Jordan Bulls, so I think it worked reasonably well.

I don't think that's true at all. The Heat were 3rd, 8th, 2nd and 5th in those 4 years, and Wade and Bosh are better and more dynamic threats than Pippen was offensively.

The Bulls were 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 9th in the title runs. Aside from 98 really, when people were old and hurt, the Bulls were consistently more effective offensively and stood out in terms of offensive rating all time and compared to their league in a much bigger way than the Heat ever did. Honestly those Heat numbers are pretty disappointing considering how much talent they had offensively.

The Bulls posted offensive ratings similar to the 16-18 Warriors, the late 80's Lakers, (The list of top o-ratings is now littered with team from the Covid shortened seasons without crowds and stuff, and it's pretty clear those years can be tossed in terms of best offenses ever TBH. The Heat's best offense of 112.3 rating is over 2 points worse than the 3rd best Bulls rating. Those Bulls posted 5 offensive ratings better than any the Heat ever had, some being during one of the biggest slogs offensively in the mid 90's.

Maybe if the heat would be in the top 10 in offensive rebound percentage (the bulls were in the top almost every year) instead of being in the bottom (especially in 2013 and 2014) the offensive rating for the heat would have been even higher

[mysticOscar]

I'll keep parroting this.

MJ midrange and general shooting ability off the catch makes him way more effective off the ball.

LeBron struggles with this throughout his career.

Insert LeBron or GSW or the recent Spurs team and the same system just doesn't work.

James played off-ball in Miami and they had comparable offensive success to Jordan Bulls, so I think it worked reasonably well.

MJ can easily play the same system that LeBron plays, and I'm sure MJ will have the same success that LeBron has.

Based on what we have seen in 1989, I don't think it's true. Bulls finished with +1.3 (109.1) rORtg in that season and when Jordan turned into full-time PG in the last 2 months, their offense didn't change (109.5 ORtg). That's not the same success James had in 2009 or 2010 and I wouldn't say he played with significantly worse teammates.

But where MJ is able to do with his skillet is play a more team oriented system.

His team oriented system means Jordan taking as many shots as he wanted? Come on, Jordan didn't scale down to his teammates.

1989 is very different to 2005 onwards. The game in 1989 was very much clogged Paint and everyone going for offensive rebounds. It was a big man game. MJs success was quite astonishing to be frank, and it was literally his first season he was entrusted to play the point.

LeBron would have done worse, especially not having as much shooters around and his post midrange game were lacking for the better 1st half of his career.

Just looking at usage to assess how much they dominate the ball is not the way to look at it.

LeBron has high usage, high assist % and high defensive rebound %. Basically the ball goes through him from start to end of a play.

[NO-KG-AI]

James played off-ball in Miami and they had comparable offensive success to Jordan Bulls, so I think it worked reasonably well.

I don't think that's true at all. The Heat were 3rd, 8th, 2nd and 5th in those 4 years, and Wade and Bosh are better and more dynamic threats than Pippen was offensively.

The Bulls were 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 9th in the title runs. Aside from 98 really, when people were old and hurt, the Bulls were consistently more effective offensively and stood out in terms of offensive rating all time and compared to their league in a much bigger way than the Heat ever did. Honestly those Heat numbers are pretty disappointing considering how much talent they had offensively.

The Bulls posted offensive ratings similar to the 16-18 Warriors, the late 80's Lakers, (The list of top o-ratings is now littered with team from the Covid shortened seasons without crowds and stuff, and it's pretty clear those years can be tossed in terms of best offenses ever TBH. The Heat's best offense of 112.3 rating is over 2 points worse than the 3rd best Bulls rating. Those Bulls posted 5 offensive ratings better than any the Heat ever had, some being during one of the biggest slogs offensively in the mid 90's.

Maybe if the heat would be in the top 10 in offensive rebound percentage (the bulls were in the top almost every year) instead of being in the bottom (especially in 2013 and 2014) the offensive rating for the heat would have been even higher

Maybe. But that’s part of the trade off when everybody has to stand at the 3 point line to make space for LeBron to set up and dribble with shooters all over.


Also they were 13th the first time the were the #1 offense; and 12th when they posted their best offensive rating ever.

[70sFan]

I don't think that's true at all. The Heat were 3rd, 8th, 2nd and 5th in those 4 years, and Wade and Bosh are better and more dynamic threats than Pippen was offensively.

The Bulls were 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 9th in the title runs. Aside from 98 really, when people were old and hurt, the Bulls were consistently more effective offensively and stood out in terms of offensive rating all time and compared to their league in a much bigger way than the Heat ever did. Honestly those Heat numbers are pretty disappointing considering how much talent they had offensively.

That's true in RS, but it doesn't translate to the postseason. I already adressed that - Jordan's teams were clearly better in RS and it's up to you to evaluate that. In terms of postseason offenses though, Bulls teams don't look any better though:

1991 Bulls: +6.7 in RS, +11.7 in PS
1992 Bulls: +7.3 in RS, +6.5 in PS
1993 Bulls: +4.9 in RS, +9.8 in PS
1996 Bulls: +7.5 in RS, +8.6 in PS
1997 Bulls: +7.7 in RS, +6.0 in PS
1998 Bulls: +2.6 in RS, +6.5 in PS

Average: +6.1 in RS, +8.0 in PS

2011 Heat: +4.5 in RS, +4.7 in PS
2012 Heat: +2.0 in RS, +8.8 in PS
2013 Heat: +6.5 in RS, +8.2 in PS
2014 Heat: +4.3 in RS, +9.6 in PS

Averages: +4.5 in RS, +7.8 in PS

Again, I think we should evaluate both RS and PS samples, so overall Jordan has the edge. At the top level of competition though, the difference basically doesn't exist though.

About Wade/Bosh having more talent - they both were volume scorers, Jordan didn't play next to volume scorers. I doubt he'd fit greatly next to someone like Wade.

[70sFan]

1989 is very different to 2005 onwards. The game in 1989 was very much clogged Paint and everyone going for offensive rebounds. It was a big man game. MJs success was quite astonishing to be frank, and it was literally his first season he was entrusted to play the point.

I don't think the difference in eras is so drastic that Jordan leading his team to +1 offense is much more impressive or astonishing than James leading his team to +4 offense.

LeBron would have done worse, especially not having as much shooters around and his post midrange game were lacking for the better 1st half of his career.

James is a worse midrange shooter, but he's also significantly better passer and playmaker. He'd definitely do a better job as the main PG than Jordan, just like Jordan would do a better job than James as an off-ball scorer.

Just looking at usage to assess how much they dominate the ball is not the way to look at it.

LeBron has high usage, high assist % and high defensive rebound %. Basically the ball goes through him from start to end of a play.

Yes, because he's the playmaker. Jordan isn't as good at that role. That's all, I don't even argue against Jordan being better - he's just not as good at everything. Is it that controversial take?

[Homer38]

I don't think that's true at all. The Heat were 3rd, 8th, 2nd and 5th in those 4 years, and Wade and Bosh are better and more dynamic threats than Pippen was offensively.

The Bulls were 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 9th in the title runs. Aside from 98 really, when people were old and hurt, the Bulls were consistently more effective offensively and stood out in terms of offensive rating all time and compared to their league in a much bigger way than the Heat ever did. Honestly those Heat numbers are pretty disappointing considering how much talent they had offensively.

The Bulls posted offensive ratings similar to the 16-18 Warriors, the late 80's Lakers, (The list of top o-ratings is now littered with team from the Covid shortened seasons without crowds and stuff, and it's pretty clear those years can be tossed in terms of best offenses ever TBH. The Heat's best offense of 112.3 rating is over 2 points worse than the 3rd best Bulls rating. Those Bulls posted 5 offensive ratings better than any the Heat ever had, some being during one of the biggest slogs offensively in the mid 90's.

Maybe if the heat would be in the top 10 in offensive rebound percentage (the bulls were in the top almost every year) instead of being in the bottom (especially in 2013 and 2014) the offensive rating for the heat would have been even higher

Maybe. But that’s part of the trade off when everybody has to stand at the 3 point line to make space for LeBron to set up and dribble with shooters all over.


Also they were 13th the first time the were the #1 offense; and 12th when they posted their best offensive rating ever.

For the 3 points line,this is a myth since outside of 2013,they did not attempts many 3 points

15th in 2014
6th in 2013
23rd in 2012
15th in 2011

So it was not the case like it was in Cleveland between 2015-2018.And Cleveland were still a much better offensive rebounds team that the heat despite to be very high in 3 points attempts

[mysticOscar]

1989 is very different to 2005 onwards. The game in 1989 was very much clogged Paint and everyone going for offensive rebounds. It was a big man game. MJs success was quite astonishing to be frank, and it was literally his first season he was entrusted to play the point.

I don't think the difference in eras is so drastic that Jordan leading his team to +1 offense is much more impressive or astonishing than James leading his team to +4 offense.

LeBron would have done worse, especially not having as much shooters around and his post midrange game were lacking for the better 1st half of his career.

James is a worse midrange shooter, but he's also significantly better passer and playmaker. He'd definitely do a better job as the main PG than Jordan, just like Jordan would do a better job than James as an off-ball scorer.

Just looking at usage to assess how much they dominate the ball is not the way to look at it.

LeBron has high usage, high assist % and high defensive rebound %. Basically the ball goes through him from start to end of a play.

Yes, because he's the playmaker. Jordan isn't as good at that role. That's all, I don't even argue against Jordan being better - he's just not as good at everything. Is it that controversial take?

To say there is hardly any difference in 80s to 2005+ is underaring how much the NBA has changed.

How many teams were led by high scoring point guards prior to 2005? Now it seems every team is doing it. As they should to take advantage of the open lanes.

You can't be an effective high scoring point guard in the past without a midrange or jumper. Solely relying on your driving ability will just not work then, even if your the size of LeBron.

I'm not claiming Jordan is better at everything, I was responding to your original post regarding Jordan and his high usage, and u implying that he dominates the ball. What I'm saying is, LeBron dominates the ball in a mew level. His usage is almost up there with Jordan's and he also dominates assist % and defensive rebound %.
Im not claiming else other than that. Not sure why your getting defensive

[AEnigma]

Yep, easy answer is the guy who time and time again adjusted to and won with completely different rosters, systems, and franchises, but for some reason a lot of people want to pretend it is the guy whose career was a lot more static and whose success was tied to a specific coach, system, costar, and front office.

I know this is the **** on Jordan thread

but you're acting like LeBron transitioned flawlessly from team to team.

Please highlight where.

He struggled (by his own standards ofc) every single year he made the move to a new team before going back to normal the year after.

And it was a process for Jordan to adapt to the triangle too — a system that by rights should suit him, with teammates that required less adaptation than most of Lebron’s. The exception of course was Anthony Davis, and unsurprisingly they had the most immediate success and synchronisation.

It's also not the biggest challenge ever to win with "completely different rosters" when those rosters were superteams he was joining left and right.

“Superteams” that struggled to or outright would/did not make the playoffs without him.

The 1994 Bulls went seven games against (and overall outscored) the conference winning Knicks that year. The 2009 Celtics went seven games against the conference-winning Magic that year. The 2016 Warriors were winning without Steph (albeit against underwhelming competition and only in a partial sample for Portland). Lebron’s “super teams” could not function without him in Cleveland or Los Angeles, and in Miami they were more functional but were still comparatively uninspiring.

Like I don't think it's out there to say LeBron is easier to build around from scratch due to his playmaking and positional versatility but using LeBron abandoning ship all the time as an argument in favor of him is a bit weird to me.

That was not the argument, the argument was that on a random team he has more evidence of adaptability.

Is Wilt better than Russell because he played on 3 teams instead of 1 too?

He certainly showcased a wider array of skills, which is why so many people prefer him.

That'd also make Kawhi easier to build around than most top 10 guys because he has rings for 2 different teams, while losers like Duncan, Kobe, Bird, Magic and Hakeem only won for 1 team. Just because someone played for only 1 team in their career doesn't mean they couldn't have thrived in different situations.

[AEnigma]

You can't be an effective high scoring point guard in the past without a midrange or jumper. Solely relying on your driving ability will just not work then, even if your the size of LeBron

What?

This is obtuse. You know, every high scoring centre from the 1960s to 1980s had range. I am just not sure Shaq could handle those eras with how much he relied on scoring close to the basket.

[PistolPeteJR]

I mean nobody could win multiple titles on their own. Lebron had a guy put up 27ppg in a finals and another one put up 25ppg. Pippen never averaged more than 21ppg in a finals.

I would take all of pippen finals over 2016 kyrie -let alone other kyrie playoffs runs- except maybe 98 scottie

Points per game is not everythingh or even most of everythingh

That's true. Pippen could more things but he didn't have Kyrie's explosiveness. I believe it was Cowherd who said Lebron only needs a guy to give him 15-18ppg alongside him and he can win. Is that true though with what he had in Cleveland in his early days with Mo Williams and Big Z?

Take Mo’s PPG and give him Payton’s defense and playmaking. Yes, LeBron can win with that.

[Djoker]

I don't think that's true at all. The Heat were 3rd, 8th, 2nd and 5th in those 4 years, and Wade and Bosh are better and more dynamic threats than Pippen was offensively.

The Bulls were 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 9th in the title runs. Aside from 98 really, when people were old and hurt, the Bulls were consistently more effective offensively and stood out in terms of offensive rating all time and compared to their league in a much bigger way than the Heat ever did. Honestly those Heat numbers are pretty disappointing considering how much talent they had offensively.

That's true in RS, but it doesn't translate to the postseason. I already adressed that - Jordan's teams were clearly better in RS and it's up to you to evaluate that. In terms of postseason offenses though, Bulls teams don't look any better though:

1991 Bulls: +6.7 in RS, +11.7 in PS
1992 Bulls: +7.3 in RS, +6.5 in PS
1993 Bulls: +4.9 in RS, +9.8 in PS
1996 Bulls: +7.5 in RS, +8.6 in PS
1997 Bulls: +7.7 in RS, +6.0 in PS
1998 Bulls: +2.6 in RS, +6.5 in PS

Average: +6.1 in RS, +8.0 in PS

2011 Heat: +4.5 in RS, +4.7 in PS
2012 Heat: +2.0 in RS, +8.8 in PS
2013 Heat: +6.5 in RS, +8.2 in PS
2014 Heat: +4.3 in RS, +9.6 in PS

Averages: +4.5 in RS, +7.8 in PS

Again, I think we should evaluate both RS and PS samples, so overall Jordan has the edge. At the top level of competition though, the difference basically doesn't exist though.

About Wade/Bosh having more talent - they both were volume scorers, Jordan didn't play next to volume scorers. I doubt he'd fit greatly next to someone like Wade.

To be fair Lebron's team PS metrics are probably inflated from playing in a weak conference.

And yes Lebron's Heat had more offensive talent. How Jordan would fit next to Wade is a question mark but I think he fits better than Lebron did because Wade is a great on-ball player and MJ could play off of him better than Lebron could. We don't know but that's a reasonable.

[70sFan]

I don't think that's true at all. The Heat were 3rd, 8th, 2nd and 5th in those 4 years, and Wade and Bosh are better and more dynamic threats than Pippen was offensively.

The Bulls were 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 9th in the title runs. Aside from 98 really, when people were old and hurt, the Bulls were consistently more effective offensively and stood out in terms of offensive rating all time and compared to their league in a much bigger way than the Heat ever did. Honestly those Heat numbers are pretty disappointing considering how much talent they had offensively.

That's true in RS, but it doesn't translate to the postseason. I already adressed that - Jordan's teams were clearly better in RS and it's up to you to evaluate that. In terms of postseason offenses though, Bulls teams don't look any better though:

1991 Bulls: +6.7 in RS, +11.7 in PS
1992 Bulls: +7.3 in RS, +6.5 in PS
1993 Bulls: +4.9 in RS, +9.8 in PS
1996 Bulls: +7.5 in RS, +8.6 in PS
1997 Bulls: +7.7 in RS, +6.0 in PS
1998 Bulls: +2.6 in RS, +6.5 in PS

Average: +6.1 in RS, +8.0 in PS

2011 Heat: +4.5 in RS, +4.7 in PS
2012 Heat: +2.0 in RS, +8.8 in PS
2013 Heat: +6.5 in RS, +8.2 in PS
2014 Heat: +4.3 in RS, +9.6 in PS

Averages: +4.5 in RS, +7.8 in PS

Again, I think we should evaluate both RS and PS samples, so overall Jordan has the edge. At the top level of competition though, the difference basically doesn't exist though.

About Wade/Bosh having more talent - they both were volume scorers, Jordan didn't play next to volume scorers. I doubt he'd fit greatly next to someone like Wade.

To be fair Lebron's team PS metrics are probably inflated from playing in a weak conference.

And yes Lebron's Heat had more offensive talent. How Jordan would fit next to Wade is a question mark but I think he fits better than Lebron did because Wade is a great on-ball player and MJ could play off of him better than Lebron could. We don't know but that's a reasonable.

These numbers are adjusted for opponents, not for league average.

I think some Heat with younger Wade had more talent on offense, but 2013 is questionable and 2014 is doubtful, unless you compare them to 1998 Bulls.

It's possible, although I don't see Jordan scaling down his shots to anyone really. My point is that Jordan never played with on-ball creator like Kyrie or Wade, so we can't just assume he would work better with them.

[Djoker]

That's true in RS, but it doesn't translate to the postseason. I already adressed that - Jordan's teams were clearly better in RS and it's up to you to evaluate that. In terms of postseason offenses though, Bulls teams don't look any better though:

1991 Bulls: +6.7 in RS, +11.7 in PS
1992 Bulls: +7.3 in RS, +6.5 in PS
1993 Bulls: +4.9 in RS, +9.8 in PS
1996 Bulls: +7.5 in RS, +8.6 in PS
1997 Bulls: +7.7 in RS, +6.0 in PS
1998 Bulls: +2.6 in RS, +6.5 in PS

Average: +6.1 in RS, +8.0 in PS

2011 Heat: +4.5 in RS, +4.7 in PS
2012 Heat: +2.0 in RS, +8.8 in PS
2013 Heat: +6.5 in RS, +8.2 in PS
2014 Heat: +4.3 in RS, +9.6 in PS

Averages: +4.5 in RS, +7.8 in PS

Again, I think we should evaluate both RS and PS samples, so overall Jordan has the edge. At the top level of competition though, the difference basically doesn't exist though.

About Wade/Bosh having more talent - they both were volume scorers, Jordan didn't play next to volume scorers. I doubt he'd fit greatly next to someone like Wade.

To be fair Lebron's team PS metrics are probably inflated from playing in a weak conference.

And yes Lebron's Heat had more offensive talent. How Jordan would fit next to Wade is a question mark but I think he fits better than Lebron did because Wade is a great on-ball player and MJ could play off of him better than Lebron could. We don't know but that's a reasonable.

These numbers are adjusted for opponents, not for league average.

I think some Heat with younger Wade had more talent on offense, but 2013 is questionable and 2014 is doubtful, unless you compare them to 1998 Bulls.

It's possible, although I don't see Jordan scaling down his shots to anyone really. My point is that Jordan never played with on-ball creator like Kyrie or Wade, so we can't just assume he would work better with them.

Even adjusted for opponents DRtg, it's a lot easier to overachieve against weaker teams. For instance I don't think it's a coincidence that the 1991 Bulls had the best PS rORtg of all the Bulls runs considering that was their easiest run in terms of competition. Lebron facing a lot more bad/mediocre teams in the Eastern Conference is inflating those numbers.

Wade's usage rate in 2013 and 2014 was very Pippen-esque and Jordan played off ball next to Pippen so I don't see a reason he couldn't do it next to Wade. We don't know but it isn't a stretch IMO.

[70sFan]

To say there is hardly any difference in 80s to 2005+ is underaring how much the NBA has changed.

When did I say there's hardly any difference? There are gigantic differences between these two eras. Some of them helped James, some of them helped Jordan. It's not as easy as "Jordan would dominate today".

How many teams were led by high scoring point guards prior to 2005? Now it seems every team is doing it. As they should to take advantage of the open lanes.

More than you think, you just don't remember them all. Less than now due to many changes in rules and strategies, but it was possible.

You can't be an effective high scoring point guard in the past without a midrange or jumper. Solely relying on your driving ability will just not work then, even if your the size of LeBron.

What? Lack of jumpshot is exploited significantly more today than in the 1980s. Back then you had quite a few PGs with inconsistent jumpers scoring a lot of points.

Did you forget that Magic Johnson didn't have reliable jumpshot until like 1984? Mostly because of his size and IQ, LeBron is similar in this aspect. Besides, don't turn LeBron into Ben Simmons - he always had a midrange game.

I'm not claiming Jordan is better at everything,

You literally said that James has no advantage even in his best style, while Jordan destroys him in his. How can I interpret that differently?

I was responding to your original post regarding Jordan and his high usage, and u implying that he dominates the ball.

That's not what I implied. I said that Jordan never scaled down his shooting attempts, not that he was extremely ball dominant. I'm aware that Jordan played a lot without the ball.

What I'm saying is, LeBron dominates the ball in a mew level. His usage is almost up there with Jordan's and he also dominates assist % and defensive rebound %.

No, LeBron didn't take as many shots as Jordan. Overall, his usage is higher, he's on-ball playmaker after all. The level of his ball-dominance isn't anything outlier historically though.

Im not claiming else other than that. Not sure why your getting defensive

When did I get defensive? You just wrongly interpret my words.

[70sFan]

Even adjusted for opponents DRtg, it's a lot easier to overachieve against weaker teams. For instance I don't think it's a coincidence that the 1991 Bulls had the best PS rORtg of all the Bulls runs considering that was their easiest run in terms of competition. Lebron facing a lot more bad/mediocre teams in the Eastern Conference is inflating those numbers.

LeBron faced some of the best defensive teams ever during that period though. 2011 Celtics, 2012 Celtics, 2012-14 Pacers, 2013-14 Spurs... Strictly in terms of defense faced, James faced absolutely stellar competition in that period. His opponents were far weaker during 2015-18 period actually.

Wade's usage rate in 2013 and 2014 was very Pippen-esque and Jordan played off ball next to Pippen so I don't see a reason he couldn't do it next to Wade. We don't know but it isn't a stretch IMO.

Maybe, although style-wise Pippen and Wade are nothing alike.

[NO-KG-AI]

And there's 0 chance LeBron produces better offenses playing even more off the ball and letting Scottie Pippen play point guard. It's a ridiculous notion. LeBron has played with 5 different guys that proved to be bigger offensive forces, and they all molded their game around fitting next to LeBron except for probably Kyrie(who is an excellent off ball shooting threat), and Anthony Davis who is possibly the best off the ball player in the sport outside of Stephen Curry, and the results are still good, but not super special offenses aside from small stretches. Maybe LeBron teams don't play hard in the regular season or something, but the results are NOT about equal to me, because sustained all time great offenses for an entire season and capping it with titles is much more impressive than merely top 5-10 offenses for full seasons, trouncing some garbage low seeds and then looking tepid on offense again against the elite teams of the west.

They were 2-2 in the finals for a reason, and a huge part of why is LeBron's failure to produce on offense at GOAT levels at some times when the team got really desperate for it on occasion. He obviously was phenomenal at other times as well, he's amazing, but there were long stretches that nearly or DID cost them multiple times with LeBron being challenged to shoot, or giving the ball up entirely too much because he couldn't get to spots he wanted to.

I just don't see how there is any argument that either A) The results were similar on offense or in terms of total dominance or B)That Jordan's teams were more talented offensively or somehow so much of a better fit that it propelled Jordan's teams that much higher.

LeBron James has never led the best offense in the league, and has only led the 2nd best offense ONCE. I can't imagine putting him somewhere with two paint occupying big men, and a swing man who was at his best playing point guard with the ball in his hand as a tepid shooter, and moving LeBron to a more off ball role was the key to unlocking his ability to lead all time great offenses.

We can argue all day about what he could have done or should have done, but all we really have is what he actually did and didn't do. And what he didn't do was routinely lead dominating offenses, and it's not like his teams lacked offensive firepower, shooters, etc for most if not all of his career since he left Cleveland the first time. At some point you have to question something with the way he plays or forces other guys to play, or the way he and his teams carry themselves that the offensive results in comparison to other offensive goats is sort of... lacking.

PS, while we're on the subject, Chris Paul led better offenses with less talent too