Which Combo would you rather have for the 2022/2023 Season: Giannis/Luka or Jokic/Curry

[mdonnelly1989]

Which Combo would you rather have for the 2022/2023 Season: Giannis/Luka or Jokic/Curry

[PistolPeteJR]

Not close at all. Jokic/Curry is GG league.

[TheWitcher]

Not even close? A Giannis/Luka fastbreak would be insane

[No-more-rings]

Unless Curry has some sudden sharp decline which I don’t see happening, this is Jokic/Curry pretty comfortably. Giannis/Luka is an awkward fit and neither have proven they can play offball so far.

[AussieBuck]

Unless Curry has some sudden sharp decline which I don’t see happening, this is Jokic/Curry pretty comfortably. Giannis/Luka is an awkward fit and neither have proven they can play offball so far.

This is an ancient take. Giannis is a **** monster as a roll man these days. Even with the lack of any serious pick and roll handler. We use Middleton and he can't even dribble facing the basket. You've got to invest in some league pass my dude.

[The-Power]

Both duos are awesome. Jokic and Curry need good defenders at all positions who are smart enough to play off the ball, and Giannis and Luka need shooters at all positions who also cannot be exploited defensively.

Luka and Giannis would be deadly in the PnR and Giannis alone – in addition to Luka having good positional size – is a strong foundation for a defensive team. But on offense, the fit becomes a bit more funky when each of them does their own thing on the ball. You would likely see a lot of staggered minutes but due to how different their styles of play are, you need a versatile roster in addition to having shooters all around.

Meanwhile, Curry and Jokic is one of the most perfect offensive pairings there could be. They would be the best offensive duo of all time when you account for talent and fit. At the same time, while neither of them is a bad defender by any means, both can be targeted to some degree and you need a strong defensive supporting cast with a couple good help defenders and switchable on-ball guys to alleviate those concerns.

Tough to pick one. I'd slightly favor Curry and Jokic because I truly believe their team would reach offensive heights we've never seen before and the better synergy should lead to an overall better team all else being comparable. That being said, Luka and Giannis have good arguments to be more ‘match-up’ proof with fewer problematic match-ups in theory and may therefore close the gap or even overcome it in the playoffs depending on what the other teams in the league look like and the playoff bracket.

edit: Out of curiosity since the players here are all fairly close overall (especially if we assume Luka to take another small step forward): how do you rank the other possible combinations out of those players?

We already have:
1. Luka / Giannis
2. Curry / Jokic

But what about:
3. Curry / Giannis
4. Curry / Luka
5. Luka / Jokic
6. Giannis / Jokic
?

I think the only combo that can compete with the two mentioned in the OP is Curry and Giannis, although a combo of Giannis and Jokic would be truly fascinating.

If I had to rank all of them I'd probably go:

Curry / Giannis
Curry / Jokic
Luka / Giannis
Giannis / Jokic
Curry / Luka
Luka / Jokic

I suppose that ultimately reflects my view on the level of portability they have or how easy it is to fit them around other superstar talent, where I'd have: Curry > Giannis > Jokic > Doncic.

[AussieBuck]

Curry/Giannis for fit, Giannis/Jokic just for the pleasure of watching the two most unique bigs ever. Was great for the few minutes we got last season of Giannis/Cousins because it's the first time we've had Giannis with another big who can pass. It's a wonderful wrinkle I'd love to see more of one day.

[No-more-rings]

Unless Curry has some sudden sharp decline which I don’t see happening, this is Jokic/Curry pretty comfortably. Giannis/Luka is an awkward fit and neither have proven they can play offball so far.

This is an ancient take. Giannis is a **** monster as a roll man these days. Even with the lack of any serious pick and roll handler. We use Middleton and he can't even dribble facing the basket. You've got to invest in some league pass my dude.

I don’t care enough to sit there and watch 30 of his regular season games, if that’s what you’re thinking.

I have watched enough of him though especially in the playoffs to see he’s still largely an onball player who runs a lot of everything on offense. So he can make some buckets rolling to the basket, fine. You’re still putting two players together who are very ball dominant with one who still isn’t a good shooter and another who’s good but not great.

On defense, Luka is the worst defender easily of the four. On offense, again the other duo is miles better. You put a good defensive big next to Jokic and a decent guard defender next to Curry and they’ll be massively hard to stop.

The other duo will be really good too, but they’d still have less cohesiveness. Even if you have more confidence in Giannis than me, there’s really no argument Luka is a skilled player without the ball.

[AussieBuck]

Unless Curry has some sudden sharp decline which I don’t see happening, this is Jokic/Curry pretty comfortably. Giannis/Luka is an awkward fit and neither have proven they can play offball so far.

This is an ancient take. Giannis is a **** monster as a roll man these days. Even with the lack of any serious pick and roll handler. We use Middleton and he can't even dribble facing the basket. You've got to invest in some league pass my dude.

I don’t care enough to sit there and watch 30 of his regular season games, if that’s what you’re thinking.

I have watched enough of him though especially in the playoffs to see he’s still largely an onball player who runs a lot of everything on offense. So he can make some buckets rolling to the basket, fine. You’re still putting two players together who are very ball dominant with one who still isn’t a good shooter and another who’s good but not great.

On defense, Luka is the worst defender easily of the four. On offense, again the other duo is miles better. You put a good defensive big next to Jokic and a decent guard defender next to Curry and they’ll be massively hard to stop.

The other duo will be really good too, but they’d still have less cohesiveness. Even if you have more confidence in Giannis than me, there’s really no argument Luka is a skilled player without the ball.

No, what I'm thinking is that you've claimed Giannis can't play offball despite him winning a title while spending a good amount of time specifically playing as a screen man, usually rolling to devastating effect despite not even having a an average setup man. You're just flat out wrong.

[No-more-rings]

This is an ancient take. Giannis is a **** monster as a roll man these days. Even with the lack of any serious pick and roll handler. We use Middleton and he can't even dribble facing the basket. You've got to invest in some league pass my dude.

I don’t care enough to sit there and watch 30 of his regular season games, if that’s what you’re thinking.

I have watched enough of him though especially in the playoffs to see he’s still largely an onball player who runs a lot of everything on offense. So he can make some buckets rolling to the basket, fine. You’re still putting two players together who are very ball dominant with one who still isn’t a good shooter and another who’s good but not great.

On defense, Luka is the worst defender easily of the four. On offense, again the other duo is miles better. You put a good defensive big next to Jokic and a decent guard defender next to Curry and they’ll be massively hard to stop.

The other duo will be really good too, but they’d still have less cohesiveness. Even if you have more confidence in Giannis than me, there’s really no argument Luka is a skilled player without the ball.

No, what I'm thinking is that you've claimed Giannis can't play offball despite him winning a title while spending a good amount of time specifically playing as a screen man, usually rolling to devastating effect despite not even having a an average setup man. You're just flat out wrong.

He did not win a title by playing a good amount of offball, this isn't going to be true no matter how many times people repeat it.

[The-Power]

He did not win a title by playing a good amount of offball, this isn't going to be true no matter how many times people repeat it.

Assisted on 44% of his 2s and 54% of his 3s during that run. That indicates a pretty balanced on-/off-ball profile.

[Colbinii]

Both duos are awesome. Jokic and Curry need good defenders at all positions who are smart enough to play off the ball, and Giannis and Luka need shooters at all positions who also cannot be exploited defensively.

Luka and Giannis would be deadly in the PnR and Giannis alone – in addition to Luka having good positional size – is a strong foundation for a defensive team. But on offense, the fit becomes a bit more funky when each of them does their own thing on the ball. You would likely see a lot of staggered minutes but due to how different their styles of play are, you need a versatile roster in addition to having shooters all around.

Meanwhile, Curry and Jokic is one of the most perfect offensive pairings there could be. They would be the best offensive duo of all time when you account for talent and fit. At the same time, while neither of them is a bad defender by any means, both can be targeted to some degree and you need a strong defensive supporting cast with a couple good help defenders and switchable on-ball guys to alleviate those concerns.

Tough to pick one. I'd slightly favor Curry and Jokic because I truly believe their team would reach offensive heights we've never seen before and the better synergy should lead to an overall better team all else being comparable. That being said, Luka and Giannis have good arguments to be more ‘match-up’ proof with fewer problematic match-ups in theory and may therefore close the gap or even overcome it in the playoffs depending on what the other teams in the league look like and the playoff bracket.

edit: Out of curiosity since the players here are all fairly close overall (especially if we assume Luka to take another small step forward): how do you rank the other possible combinations out of those players?

We already have:
1. Luka / Giannis
2. Curry / Jokic

But what about:
3. Curry / Giannis
4. Curry / Luka
5. Luka / Jokic
6. Giannis / Jokic
?

I think the only combo that can compete with the two mentioned in the OP is Curry and Giannis, although a combo of Giannis and Jokic would be truly fascinating.

If I had to rank all of them I'd probably go:

Curry / Giannis
Curry / Jokic
Luka / Giannis
Giannis / Jokic
Curry / Luka
Luka / Jokic

I suppose that ultimately reflects my view on the level of portability they have or how easy it is to fit them around other superstar talent, where I'd have: Curry > Giannis > Jokic > Doncic.

I would definitely take Jokic/Giannis over Doncic/Giannis.

What's the argument for Luka/Giannis?

[Colbinii]

He did not win a title by playing a good amount of offball, this isn't going to be true no matter how many times people repeat it.

Assisted on 44% of his 2s and 54% of his 3s during that run. That indicates a pretty balanced on-/off-ball profile.

I dont think mentioning his 18% 3P% [16% of his shots] as something Giannis is doing off-ball. These shots significantly hurt the Bucks offense and he isn't spacing the floor or providing any value during those shots [Well, he is providing value to the opposition].

[The-Power]

I would definitely take Jokic/Giannis over Doncic/Giannis.

What's the argument for Luka/Giannis?

I think it's close. I'd probably consider the latter a more conventional pairing and therefore the ‘safer’ choice. A player who is elite as at running pick and rolls and a player who is an awesome roll man. Jokic and Giannis may end up being better after all but would have to rely on a less proven style of play offensively (neither has prime Giannis played with offensive-engine big like Jokic, nor has prime Jokic played with a dominant interior scorer like Giannis).

I dont think mentioning his 18% 3P% [16% of his shots] as something Giannis is doing off-ball. These shots significantly hurt the Bucks offense and he isn't spacing the floor or providing any value during those shots [Well, he is providing value to the opposition].

I didn't mean to assess how effective he was off the ball in certain areas; it's just the quickest accessible stat to show that Giannis did not create most of the shots himself on the ball.

[Colbinii]

I would definitely take Jokic/Giannis over Doncic/Giannis.

What's the argument for Luka/Giannis?

I think it's close. I'd probably consider the latter a more conventional pairing and therefore the ‘safer’ choice. A player who is elite as at running pick and rolls and a player who is an awesome roll man. Jokic and Giannis may end up being better after all but would have to rely on a less proven style of play offensively (neither has prime Giannis played with offensive-engine big like Jokic, nor has prime Jokic played with a dominant interior scorer like Giannis).

I dont think mentioning his 18% 3P% [16% of his shots] as something Giannis is doing off-ball. These shots significantly hurt the Bucks offense and he isn't spacing the floor or providing any value during those shots [Well, he is providing value to the opposition].

I didn't mean to assess how effective he was off the ball in certain areas; it's just the quickest accessible stat to show that Giannis did not create most of the shots himself on the ball.

Yes, Giannis did create most of his field goals on-ball.

115 of Giannis' 250 Field Goals were assisted [46%]. This means 54% were unassisted.

Unfortunately this doesn't account for Field Goals Attempted.

[The-Power]

Yes, Giannis did create most of his field goals on-ball.

115 of Giannis' 250 Field Goals were assisted [46%]. This means 54% were unassisted.

Unfortunately this doesn't account for Field Goals Attempted.

I'm aware of that but I'm not aware of a free tracking side that captures FGA (and ideally also takes into account free throw assists). And yes, that would be most FGs or, rather, a majority (not sure this is true when we also take into account 3P FGs but anyway) –but the user in question denied that Giannis played a good amount off the ball and while there is no natural threshold for what constitutes ‘a good amount’, I'd argue that almost 50% definitely falls under that. This isn't a Luka Doncic or Chris Paul case where they create 75% or more of their shots without being assisted.

[Peregrine01]

The offense that a Curry/Jokic combo would create would be completely mind-boggling.

[No-more-rings]

We can talk about Giannis making assisted shots, I don’t think that makes him a solid off ball player or whatever label you want to use. Certainly I never implied he was totally useless in an off ball role. The thing is the field goals don’t really capture that his creation for others and genral impact on an offense is through on-ball. That’s nothing bad of course when the style works, but it adds some complications when playing with someone like Luka. Luke is a great passer, but he’s still a score first guy. My answer might be different if you give him say Steve Nash who would get him ridiculously good looks around the basket at stuff. Luka can do some of that for him, but not an ideal amount.

[OhayoKD]

Why is there only one post here mentioning the defensive side of things?

Giannis+Luka gives you elite defense and elite offense and playoff luka is a better three poitn shooter than anyone on the bucks. Jokic and Curry's value is largely derived from similar places and you still need to figure out defensive stuff

[Peregrine01]

Why is there only one post here mentioning the defensive side of things?

Giannis+Luka gives you elite defense and elite offense and playoff luka is a better three poitn shooter than anyone on the bucks. Jokic and Curry's value is largely derived from similar places and you still need to figure out defensive stuff

I'm not sure you can call Giannis/Luka an elite defense. Giannis is easily the best defensive player of the four, but Luka is also the worst.

IMO, I think we're talking about offense more here because there's more potential for higher synergy in a Jokic/Curry pairing. Curry with Draymond as his running mate has already produced an offensive dynasty. Imagine what he'd do with Jokic, who's basically Draymond's superior on offense in literally every facet?