Imagine if Precious/Banton had been a top 10 pick...

[EG73]

Doesn't draft position affect our expectations of them and their development, rather than purely what we're seeing on the court? Can you imagine a world where, say, Precious was picked #4 and Scottie was picked #20? Would we be demanding more playing time for Precious? Demanding he start?

Yes, draft position have an influence. Araujo was hated, and I think that wouldn’t have been the case if he got drafted in second round. Similar for Bargnani (but other reasons to not appreciate much), etc. And second rounders and undrafted players (siakam, FVV, etc) get less pressure and negativity in their first few years.

[Godaddycurse]

pre-all-star game his shooting splits were abysmal: 42/30/58 but after the break he made major strides, improving to 46/39/62 and improving his TS% from .467 to .552, which is basically league average

55.2 is only league average when you consider other positions. Avg TS for centers are much higher. His TS is cratered by his poor FT% AND finishing around the rim.

Precious is more of a wing on offense than a traditional big though. He's an off the dribble player who shoots 3s. These type of guys are going to have much lower efficiency on average than bigs who just shoot layouts, dunks and the occasional wide open 3.

Thats the kind of big we need next to barnes/siakam. we dont need another off the dribble player

[WaltFrazier]

I think the point of the OP is would we as fans look at Achiuwa and Banton differently if they were drafted higher. I realize that's the whole purpose of this board but really, what do fan expectations matter? What counts is how coaches and management feel about those players. If they earn minutes they will play more.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

It doesn't matter how hard you squint your eyes or rub them. Only one of them has any real chance as a projected top five player.

Don't get me wrong, I love all three. However, there are levels to this.

[Jadoogar]

Yes it's crazy lol.

Banton has made ton of strides but the jury is still out on him playing legitimate back up PG minutes with us.

Precious while is amazing on defence, is still one of the least efficient centers in nba history.

They're not in the same tier as Barnes and never will be but that's okay.

Not trying to be a jerk, but is this actually true? I feel like my eye test can name much worse offensive centers in NBA history?

It's an exaggeration but Precious shot 44% from the field with a 50% TS. He improved as the season went on but these are horrific numbers for a center.

[Jadoogar]

I think the point of the OP is would we as fans look at Achiuwa and Banton differently if they were drafted higher. I realize that's the whole purpose of this board but really, what do fan expectations matter? What counts is how coaches and management feel about those players. If they earn minutes they will play more.

Honestly i think we would feel worse if they were drafted higher. We like them more because they are out performing their draft position. If they were both top 10 picks, i think we would be more disappointed since the expectations would be higher.

Either way, neither of them are close to Scottie as prospects.

[OakleyDokely]

Precious:
First 13 games of season: .348 FG%, .188 3PT, .538 FT, .386 TS%
Game 14 until AS break: .460 FG%, .349 3PT, .600 FT, .515 TS%
Games after AS break: .462 FG%, .392 3PT, .618 FT, .552 TS%


If there was an award for in-season improvement, Precious would've been in the mix. His defense was consistently great all year, but he made huge leaps offensively as the season went on. He went from terrible to functional offensive threat.

[billy_hoyle]

These types of threads are reminiscent of Weems, Johnson and Derozan.

Only 1 player of the three is a legit starter in the league.

Also reminiscent of Poeltl (top 10 pick) vs Siakam (27th pick reach) vs FVV (2nd round pick to undrafted bet on himself).

Two of those players have made all-star teams, one is two time all-nba, and neither is the consensus top 10 pick (who is still a good player mind you).

To the point of the poster, and I think it's been brought up already, precious was a projected lottery pick (mid-lottery), so not all that different from Scottie. He slid a bit in the draft, while Scottie rose.

I'm high on him. Banton is a wild card. I like the flashes, but he's not, and has never been a lottery prospect. The other two are, and have the production to back it up.

[lobosloboslobos]

Precious:
First 13 games of season: .348 FG%, .188 3PT, .538 FT, .386 TS%
Game 14 until AS break: .460 FG%, .349 3PT, .600 FT, .515 TS%
Games after AS break: .462 FG%, .392 3PT, .618 FT, .552 TS%


If there was an award for in-season improvement, Precious would've been in the mix. His defense was consistently great all year, but he made huge leaps offensively as the season went on. He went from terrible to functional offensive threat.

Yep, the most important takeaway from these numbers is not where he ended up last season but that it shows he is capable of learning and improving in meaningful ways offensively. It raises the bar for his potential ceiling in a huge way. will he achieve his potential? who knows. but we can now reasonably hope for Precious to become a much more impactful player than we could ever have hoped for half way through last season.

it's important to understand the basic idea of growth and not get fixated on who a young guy is at a certain very early point in their career. that's how we turn G leaguers into all-stars and champions.

[WaltFrazier]

Just to throw in a different pointless thought experiment: If Scottie had been drafted 20th, then had the same rookie season, would he still have won ROY?

[HumbleRen]

Just to throw in a different pointless thought experiment: If Scottie had been drafted 20th, then had the same rookie season, would he still have won ROY?

Same team ?

[Jadoogar]

Just to throw in a different pointless thought experiment: If Scottie had been drafted 20th, then had the same rookie season, would he still have won ROY?

yes. When's the last time a 20th pick led his class in scoring?

[PerfectJab]

These types of threads are reminiscent of Weems, Johnson and Derozan.

Only 1 player of the three is a legit starter in the league.

Also reminiscent of Poeltl (top 10 pick) vs Siakam (27th pick reach) vs FVV (2nd round pick to undrafted bet on himself).

Two of those players have made all-star teams, one is two time all-nba, and neither is the consensus top 10 pick (who is still a good player mind you).

To the point of the poster, and I think it's been brought up already, precious was a projected lottery pick (mid-lottery), so not all that different from Scottie. He slid a bit in the draft, while Scottie rose.

I'm high on him. Banton is a wild card. I like the flashes, but he's not, and has never been a lottery prospect. The other two are, and have the production to back it up.

Players like Banton are a dime a dozen. I don't see him in the league 3-5 years from now. There are plenty of Banton's in the g-league right now. What he has going for him is being Canadian on a Canadian team.

Precious can further develop but he's a role player. I predict this year his efficiency will fall dramatically as teams are now more aware of him. He was never all that efficient to begin with.

I hope I'm wrong but based on what I've seen and taking away bias I think this is the reality.

[WaltFrazier]

Just to throw in a different pointless thought experiment: If Scottie had been drafted 20th, then had the same rookie season, would he still have won ROY?

Same team ?

Everything the same except we drafted lower.

I posted before about fan expectations not being important, compared to what the coaches do. But just for fun, this is about yet another set of expectations - the media. I'd say if Scottie had come from a more unheralded spot he wouldn't have won ROY. It was enough of an upset for a Raptor to win as it was, not sure having even less draft hype could have been overcome.

Could be wrong.

edit - did some research instead of just throwing out an idea. Brogdon was 36th pick, MCW 11th, Mark Jackson 18. Everyone else top ten.

[WaltFrazier]

Doesn't draft position affect our expectations of them and their development, rather than purely what we're seeing on the court? Can you imagine a world where, say, Precious was picked #4 and Scottie was picked #20? Would we be demanding more playing time for Precious? Demanding he start?

Yes, draft position have an influence. Araujo was hated, and I think that wouldn’t have been the case if he got drafted in second round. Similar for Bargnani (but other reasons to not appreciate much), etc. And second rounders and undrafted players (siakam, FVV, etc) get less pressure and negativity in their first few years.

Fan expectations and the player's actual development are two very different things

[ontnut]

Honest question, how hard is it to develop better scoring at the rim? It seems like a much easier thing to develop vs. 3 pters. If Precious has been working hard on the 3 to get it to where it is, I wonder why his rim % is still so low? Is he not working on it as much, or is it truly just a matter of scoring at the rim being harder for some people?

It seems so weird to me that he's so bad at it. It's not for lack of size or athleticism. And his dribble suggests that he doesn't have stone hands. So what is it?

[HumbleRen]

Honest question, how hard is it to develop better scoring at the rim? It seems like a much easier thing to develop vs. 3 pters. If Precious has been working hard on the 3 to get it to where it is, I wonder why his rim % is still so low? Is he not working on it as much, or is it truly just a matter of scoring at the rim being harder for some people?

It seems so weird to me that he's so bad at it. It's not for lack of size or athleticism. And his dribble suggests that he doesn't have stone hands. So what is it?

He has terrible touch around the rim. Pretty much sums it up lol.

[Boardbreaker]

Honest question, how hard is it to develop better scoring at the rim? It seems like a much easier thing to develop vs. 3 pters. If Precious has been working hard on the 3 to get it to where it is, I wonder why his rim % is still so low? Is he not working on it as much, or is it truly just a matter of scoring at the rim being harder for some people?

It seems so weird to me that he's so bad at it. It's not for lack of size or athleticism. And his dribble suggests that he doesn't have stone hands. So what is it?

Could just be a processing thing. Might be rushing and can’t decide whether to go off glass/lay it over the rim/dunk etc. I’d love if our coaches could just get him to try and dunk everything at the rim, especially on putbacks.

[Fairview4Life]

Amir Johnson was a legit starter in the NBA. He was consistently one of the better defenders the Raps have ever had, and extremely efficient offensively. He was an advanced stat monster. There will be no Amir Johnson slander.

[brownbobcat]

Honest question, how hard is it to develop better scoring at the rim? It seems like a much easier thing to develop vs. 3 pters. If Precious has been working hard on the 3 to get it to where it is, I wonder why his rim % is still so low? Is he not working on it as much, or is it truly just a matter of scoring at the rim being harder for some people?

It seems so weird to me that he's so bad at it. It's not for lack of size or athleticism. And his dribble suggests that he doesn't have stone hands. So what is it?

He has terrible touch around the rim. Pretty much sums it up lol.

For what it's worth, his percentages at the rim did get better as the season progressed. Those first 2 months were abysmal, his hands looked like the 2nd coming of Biyombo.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/shooting.fcgi?player_id=achiupr01&year_id=2022&shot_distance=0-3