Best team of sidekicks you can put together.

[Stalwart]

Kobe was not subordinate to Shaq which is why they fueded the entire time. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

[Stalwart]

It's clear that Jordan was far better player than Pippen, it's also clear that Pippen was a superstar and consistent top 5-7 player in the league.

I think top 5 is a stretch. He had a top 5 season on 94 but I think ots tough to call him a definitively top 5 player even in his best season. In 94 you had Hakeem, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Shaq, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing...none of which you can definitively put Pippen above them. Then you also have guys like Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton, Penny Hardaway, Alonzo, Dominique, Drexler and others who you'd have a hard time putting Pippen definitively above despite having a better season in 1994. And this was his best season.

[AEnigma]

Kobe was not subordinate to Shaq which is why they fueded the entire time. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

Not feeling subordinate does not mean you are not subordinate. Westbrook the ultimate case in point. But I guess if you define “subordinate” as “Is a clearly lesser player and is willing to admit as much,” then sure, Kobe certainly had the requisite ego to disqualify him in your eyes.

It's clear that Jordan was far better player than Pippen, it's also clear that Pippen was a superstar and consistent top 5-7 player in the league.

I think top 5 is a stretch. He had a top 5 season on 94 but I think ots tough to call him a definitively top 5 player even in his best season. In 94 you had Hakeem, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Shaq, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing...none of which you can definitively put Pippen above them. Then you also have guys like Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton, Penny Hardaway, Alonzo, Dominique, Drexler and others who you'd have a hard time putting Pippen definitively above despite having a better season in 1994. And this was his best season.

Pippen was basically the same player 1994-97, the role just changed as Grant left and Jordan returned. Really funny how Jordan stans will even try to gas John Stockton over Pippen. Oh yeah, Stockton was definitely the type of guy who could lead contending fifty-win teams and finish top five in MVP voting.

1994: Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, sure. Shaq? Perhaps, but why. What did he do of note that year, lead a worse team and do worse in the postseason? Ewing, maybe, but could definitely argue Pippen looked like the better player in their postseason head-to-head. Barkley, maybe, but he was injured and diminished. All the rest of your mentions have no reasonable case, and although I can think of a couple of different options who could mount one, Pippen’s consistency should give him the edge.

1995: Add Shaq to that surefire group at the top. Penny has a case, but not an overly clear one with Pippen having potentially his best defensive season. Barkley and Ewing continue to see a gradual decline.

1997: Jordan swaps in for Robinson, and Hakeem and Shaq are less impressive. Penny is a bit diminished after a knee injury. Still looks like potential top five here too.

[70sFan]

It's clear that Jordan was far better player than Pippen, it's also clear that Pippen was a superstar and consistent top 5-7 player in the league.

I think top 5 is a stretch. He had a top 5 season on 94 but I think ots tough to call him a definitively top 5 player even in his best season. In 94 you had Hakeem, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Shaq, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing...none of which you can definitively put Pippen above them. Then you also have guys like Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton, Penny Hardaway, Alonzo, Dominique, Drexler and others who you'd have a hard time putting Pippen definitively above despite having a better season in 1994. And this was his best season.

Sure, if you think so low on Pippen that you put Wilkins, Penny and Payton on Pippen's level in 1994, then we won't find the same ground.

If you don't think that Pippen was top 5 player in 1994, then how do you explain Bulls success without Jordan? Does it mean that the other Bulls players are better than we think? Like your beloved roleplayer Grant? If not, then it's all luck? For full season?

[Stalwart]

It's clear that Jordan was far better player than Pippen, it's also clear that Pippen was a superstar and consistent top 5-7 player in the league.

I think top 5 is a stretch. He had a top 5 season on 94 but I think ots tough to call him a definitively top 5 player even in his best season. In 94 you had Hakeem, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Shaq, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing...none of which you can definitively put Pippen above them. Then you also have guys like Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton, Penny Hardaway, Alonzo, Dominique, Drexler and others who you'd have a hard time putting Pippen definitively above despite having a better season in 1994. And this was his best season.

Sure, if you think so low on Pippen that you put Wilkins, Penny and Payton on Pippen's level in 1994, then we won't find the same ground.

Alrighty

If you don't think that Pippen was top 5 player in 1994, then how do you explain Bulls success without Jordan? Does it mean that the other Bulls players are better than we think? Like your beloved roleplayer Grant? If not, then it's all luck? For full season?

The reason they played so well was because they had been together for 5 years and everyone knew their roles thanks in large part to playing next yo Jordan. Also everyone was playing with a chip on their shoulder in 94. They wanted to prove they werent "Jordanaires" so they played every game like a playoff game. They also added a few players. Pippen of course was awesome but not the sole reason for the Bulls success in 94. I don't think he replicates that success with a different team.

[AEnigma]

Oh, of course. Jordan made everyone smarter. He made everyone more competitive. He was such a great leader than he helped them thrive even when he was completely off the team. What a goat.

At this point why not take it a step further and say he basically gave them a divine blessing.

[70sFan]

The reason they played so well was because they had been together for 5 years and everyone knew their roles thanks in large part to playing next yo Jordan. Also everyone was playing with a chip on their shoulder in 94. They wanted to prove they werent "Jordanaires" so they played every game like a playoff game. They also added a few players. Pippen of course was awesome but not the sole reason for the Bulls success in 94. I don't think he replicates that success with a different team.

This explaination basically says that Jordan played with a team that didn't need him to compete in the playoffs. That's fair, no player could lead any team to comparable success without quality help, but I think you shouldn't discredit his teammates the way you usually do.

[Stalwart]

The reason they played so well was because they had been together for 5 years and everyone knew their roles thanks in large part to playing next yo Jordan. Also everyone was playing with a chip on their shoulder in 94. They wanted to prove they werent "Jordanaires" so they played every game like a playoff game. They also added a few players. Pippen of course was awesome but not the sole reason for the Bulls success in 94. I don't think he replicates that success with a different team.

This explaination basically says that Jordan played with a team that didn't need him to compete in the playoffs. That's fair, no player could lead any team to comparable success without quality help, but I think you shouldn't discredit his teammates the way you usually do.

Im not sure how you came to that conclusion. And you're ignoring the part about the team being together for 5 years. Thats the single biggest reason for the Bulls success in 94. The reason the team was so well run and everyone knew their roles was a result of the years playing deep into the playoffs at the highest level. The reason the Bulls played at such a high level was in large part due to Jordan. You can't escape it.

[70sFan]

Im not sure how you came to that conclusion. And you're ignoring the part about the team being together for 5 years. Thats the single biggest reason for the Bulls success in 94. The reason the team was so well run and everyone knew their roles was a result of the years playing deep into the playoffs at the highest level. The reason the Bulls played at such a high level was in large part due to Jordan. You can't escape it.

I don't ignore that, the experience is extremely important at the highest level. Jordan didn't make them playing together for 5 years though. He was the key part of that team and he definitely had an impact of the franchise culture, but at this point you're basically making Jordan Bulls head coach, GM and best player in one body. No, Phil Jackson introduced the system you're talking about. Bulls organization focused on building a consistent roster around Jordan and Pippen. Before Jackons became a coach, Bulls was a mess and Jordan couldn't keep the team together, or make them "know their roles".

You can't give Jordan credit for everything that happened during that time, it just ruins your credibility. Bulls franchise created a deep, well-coached team with great chemistry. Jordan is a huge part of that, but it doesn't mean that they'd collapse without him. They literally proved they didn't.

[henshao]

So maybe something constructive would be to try to define what a sidekick is, in NBA terms. Good players never a threat to be in the top 20-25 at any given time?

[Stalwart]

I don't ignore that, the experience is extremely important at the highest level.

And this more than anything explains why the Bulls did so well in 94.

Jordan didn't make them playing together for 5 years though. He was the key part of that team and he definitely had an impact of the franchise culture, but at this point you're basically making Jordan Bulls head coach, GM and best player in one body. No, Phil Jackson introduced the system you're talking about. Bulls organization focused on building a consistent roster around Jordan and Pippen. Before Jackons became a coach, Bulls was a mess and Jordan couldn't keep the team together, or make them "know their roles".

It was Phil Jackson and Co who designed the triangle and convinced Jordan of its effectiveness. However it was Jordan who bought in and then held the team accountable for their roles and execution of that system. Any coach will tell you that if your best player doesn't buy into what your doing then nobody else will. So two important elements of being a great player and leader is to a) be coachable and b) be the extension of the coach to the rest of the team. Is there any doubt that Jordan did both of those things? Also, Jordan held those guys accountable for their roles and execution everyday for 5 years. Do you dispute that? These are the reasons the Bulls were such a great team. Alot of that credit goes to Jordan.

You can't give Jordan credit for everything that happened during that time, it just ruins your credibility. Bulls franchise created a deep, well-coached team with great chemistry. Jordan is a huge part of that, but it doesn't mean that they'd collapse without him. They literally proved they didn't.

Im not giving Jordan credit for everything but I am giving him credit for a lot as he rightfully deserves. The biggest reason for the success in 94 was due to guys knowing their roles and being able to execute them consistently and at a high level. Why were they able to do that? It was due, in large part, to Jordan holding them accountable for their roles and execution for 5 years.

[AEnigma]

I like how the Jordan Mythos is so fragile that it has gotten to the point that we need to pretend that Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant were blithering headcases who could not be trusted to do **** without Jordan guiding them along. Incredible stuff. Phil Jackson can go on to win five more titles and he still gets relegated to being the guy who had one decent schematic idea and then basically let Jordan do everything from there. Because that is what apparently needs to be true for our basketball messiah’s legacy to go untarnished.

Here is the perfect answer, gave it a lot of thought:

G: BJ Armstrong
SG: Joe Dumars
SF: Scottie Pippen
PF: Dennis Rodman
C: Horace Grant
6Man: Toni Kukoc

Looks like a title team to me!

[Stalwart]

So maybe something constructive would be to try to define what a sidekick is, in NBA terms. Good players never a threat to be in the top 20-25 at any given time?

There is no absolute definition but the one I posted is probably the best.

A sidekick is a slang expression for a close companion or colleague (not necessarily in fiction) who is, or is generally regarded as, subordinate to the one they accompany.

If a team is considered to be be Player A's team then Player B is a sidekick no matter how good they are.

[AEnigma]

Sounds like Kobe next to Shaq.