Peak/ prime: Rank these players offensively and defensively

[1993Playoffs]

How would you rank these 3 players offensively and defensively?

D Wade , Dr J, Kevin Durant

Offense
1.
2.
3.


Defense
1.
2
3.

[No-more-rings]

Offense:

1. Wade
2. Durant
3. Dr J

Defense:

1. Dr J
2. Wade
3. Durant

I’m not super confident in these aside from Wade being the best offensively. I’m going on the assumption of peak/short prime and not longevity.

[penbeast0]

Strangely enough, my gut reaction is offense:

Durant
Erving
Wade

Although defense was the strongest in Wade's era; still both Durant and Erving seemed to have more spacing/gravity than Wade and Erving's ABA was a weaker league so you have to discount for that.

Defense is tougher. Without statistical measures, which I am willing to listen to as I think they are all above average but not great defenders, I am leaning Wade, Durant, Erving though Erving's defensive rebounding might change that.

Tough comp.

[Narigo]

Offense
Wade
Durant
Erving

Defense
Wade
Erving
Durant

[70sFan]

Strangely enough, my gut reaction is offense:

Durant
Erving
Wade

Although defense was the strongest in Wade's era; still both Durant and Erving seemed to have more spacing/gravity than Wade and Erving's ABA was a weaker league so you have to discount for that.

Defense is tougher. Without statistical measures, which I am willing to listen to as I think they are all above average but not great defenders, I am leaning Wade, Durant, Erving though Erving's defensive rebounding might change that.

Tough comp.

Strangely enough, I am more confident on defense'

Julius
Wade
Durant

Offense is extremely tough, because all three has been on similar level in their best years, but all three have much different strengths and weaknesses.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'd probably put Durant last on both offense and defense.

Offense, it's a bit of a toss up between Wade and Erving for me. My gut says Erving, but brain says Wade is a combo guard and that should make him more impactful to someone comparable to him in terms of scoring ability.

Defense, I'd take Erving over Wade probably due to positional bias as well.

[OhayoKD]

erving,(GAP) wade, durant
wade, durant, erving

relative to era anyway

[70sFan]

erving,(GAP) wade, durant
wade, durant, erving

relative to era anyway

Which one is offense and which one is defense?

[OhayoKD]

erving,(GAP) wade, durant
wade, durant, erving

relative to era anyway

Which one is offense and which one is defense?

top: o
bottom: d
should have clarified

[70sFan]

erving,(GAP) wade, durant
wade, durant, erving

relative to era anyway

Which one is offense and which one is defense?

top: o
bottom: d
should have clarified

Why do you think Julius is the worst on defense and the best on offense?

[migya]

Offense:

1. Wade
2. Durant
3. Dr J

Defense:

1. Dr J
2. Wade
3. Durant

I’m not super confident in these aside from Wade being the best offensively. I’m going on the assumption of peak/short prime and not longevity.

Agreed, though Erving was in a tougher physical era so his offense might be better than looks at first.

[Colbinii]

Offense:

1. Wade
2. Durant
3. Dr J

Defense:

1. Dr J
2. Wade
3. Durant

I’m not super confident in these aside from Wade being the best offensively. I’m going on the assumption of peak/short prime and not longevity.

Agreed, though Erving was in a tougher physical era so his offense might be better than looks at first.

Just because you believe the era was more physical doesn't mean it was more difficult.

Wade vs Erving is interesting offensively [and defensively, but focusing on offense]. Erving looked brilliant offensively in the ABA when he had space to operate in and was a wrecking ball in terms of rim pressure and also making the level 1 [Maybe level 2] passes out of penetration as his driving game set up much of Erving's passing. He would look terrific in any era, taking advantage of Illegals Defenses a la Michael Jordan did with the spacing or the current era with 3 point shooters providing the spacing [No illegal defense].

However, Erving struggled a bit when he was forced to share the floor with a Walgreens discount photo-copy of himself in George McGinnis, similar to how Wade himself wasn't excellent with James. I did prefer Wade as a 1B, #2 option next to James but the difference in the Erving/McGinnis offense is Erving should have been the de-facto #1.

Offense
1. Erving
2. Wade
3. Durant

Defense
1. Erving
2. Durant
3. Wade

[70sFan]

Offense:

1. Wade
2. Durant
3. Dr J

Defense:

1. Dr J
2. Wade
3. Durant

I’m not super confident in these aside from Wade being the best offensively. I’m going on the assumption of peak/short prime and not longevity.

Agreed, though Erving was in a tougher physical era so his offense might be better than looks at first.

Just because you believe the era was more physical doesn't mean it was more difficult.

Wade vs Erving is interesting offensively [and defensively, but focusing on offense]. Erving looked brilliant offensively in the ABA when he had space to operate in and was a wrecking ball in terms of rim pressure and also making the level 1 [Maybe level 2] passes out of penetration as his driving game set up much of Erving's passing. He would look terrific in any era, taking advantage of Illegals Defenses a la Michael Jordan did with the spacing or the current era with 3 point shooters providing the spacing [No illegal defense].

However, Erving struggled a bit when he was forced to share the floor with a Walgreens discount photo-copy of himself in George McGinnis, similar to how Wade himself wasn't excellent with James. I did prefer Wade as a 1B, #2 option next to James but the difference in the Erving/McGinnis offense is Erving should have been the de-facto #1.

Offense
1. Erving
2. Wade
3. Durant

Defense
1. Erving
2. Durant
3. Wade

Based on Julius work in the ABA, I wonder how good he'd look in more modern era. It's always something that I have in mind when I watch him.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Wade himself wasn't excellent with James.

This was the general case post-2011 but it's more accurately attributed to physical decline rather than any kind of inherent portability problems with Wade. LeBron's own portability issues necessitated an adjustment to Wade's game with greater emphasis on offball action, and Wade performed brilliantly in this role whenever he enjoyed functional knees (an elusive luxury which came and went for him, even on a game to game basis and particularly so in the playoffs when "load management" routinely gave way to "cortisol management" after the regular season's literal grind of bone on bone)

I know Wade's offball game gets discredited because he wasn't much of a perimeter shooter, but you'd be hard pressed to find a deadlier combination of offball cutting and interior finishing demonstrated by any SG in NBA history

I'd also argue that onball-dominance also presupposes the context of a halfcourt scenario. So the question of value beyond onball-dominance can be broadened to include transition play, where Wade is again extremely potent

[Djoker]

To me defense is tougher to rank than offense. For me Wade is clearly the best on offense; Durant much weaker playmaking and Dr J not enough scoring in the NBA and also weaker playmaker than Wade. On defense it's interesting. I value Dr J's off ball defensive game a lot and he's been known to take tough defensive assignments too such as guarding Bird, Iceman etc. at times which is a bit baffling given his big offensive role but he did an admirable job. Wade was devastating on defense and could erase shots at the rim for such an undersized guy. KD probably has the worst instincts defensively of the three but that long wing span means he could change perhaps the most shots. Gun to my head, I'd probably go Dr J > Wade > Durant on defense.

Offense: 1. Wade 2. Durant 3. Erving
Defense: 1. Erving 2. Wade 3. Durant

[Colbinii]

Wade himself wasn't excellent with James.

This was the general case post-2011 but it was more attributed to physical decline rather than any kind of inherent portability problems with Wade. LeBron's own portability issues necessitated an adjustment to Wade's game with greater emphasis on offball action, and Wade performed brilliantly in this role whenever he enjoyed functional knees (an elusive luxury which came and went for him, even on a game to game basis and particularly so in the playoffs when "load management" routinely gave way to "cortisol management" after the regular season's literal grind of bone on bone)

I know Wade's offball game gets discredited because he wasn't much of a perimeter shooter, but you'd be hard pressed to find a deadlier combination of offball cutting and interior finishing demonstrated by any SG in NBA history

I think Wade was good off-ball next to James, sometimes Great.

I use the term "Excellent" as a synonym for seamless or perfect.

I also don't consider LeBron to have portability issues--generally speaking he is great both on and off-ball offensively and an impactful defender when engaged.

[henshao]

Offensively I rank them Slim, Dr J, Flash. Defensively I rank them Flash, Dr J, Slim

[capfan33]

Offensively:
1. Wade
2. KD
3. Dr J

Defensively:
1. Dr J
2. Wade
3. KD

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Wade himself wasn't excellent with James.

This was the general case post-2011 but it was more attributed to physical decline rather than any kind of inherent portability problems with Wade. LeBron's own portability issues necessitated an adjustment to Wade's game with greater emphasis on offball action, and Wade performed brilliantly in this role whenever he enjoyed functional knees (an elusive luxury which came and went for him, even on a game to game basis and particularly so in the playoffs when "load management" routinely gave way to "cortisol management" after the regular season's literal grind of bone on bone)

I know Wade's offball game gets discredited because he wasn't much of a perimeter shooter, but you'd be hard pressed to find a deadlier combination of offball cutting and interior finishing demonstrated by any SG in NBA history

I think Wade was good off-ball next to James, sometimes Great.

I use the term "Excellent" as a synonym for seamless or perfect.

I'd say that nothing is perfect, and Wade's adaptation on the fly to Miami's improvisational "take turns" 2011 offense was reasonably seamless overall despite a few games of visible frustration against a historically elite Chicago defense who prioritized him after Wade dismantled Boston's own historically elite defense in the prior round. A few games of Chicago struggle notwithstanding, 2011 Wade was at:

- 36.3 PP100 on +4 rTS with a 5.5 OBPM in the RS
- 34.6 PP100 on +3 rTS with a 6.5 OBPM in the PS*

*against an extremely high level of playoff defense with series vs the 105.0 DRTG (-2.3 relative) Sixers, 100.3 (-7.0) Celtics, 100.3 (-7.0) Bulls and 105.0 (-2.3) Mavs. All total, Wade delivered elite offense over 21 PS games vs an average defense of 102.8 (-4.5)

For comparison Wade's 2006 season (voted as his peak) produced a playoff run of:

- 36.3 PP100 on +6 rTS with a 6.5 OBPM

against a 103.4 (-2.8) Bulls, 103.9 (-2.3) Nets, 103.1 (-3.1) Pistons and 105.0 (-1.2) Mavs. Overall: 23 PS games vs an average defense of 103.8 (-2.4)

So a level of playoff production as a co-main -- against better defenses -- apparently similar to a 2006 main-man run which doesn't invoke similar questions of Wade's fit. 2011 was also conducted on the fly (Spo has gone on record saying the Heat didn't practice offense that first season; perhaps some hyperbole there but we can see a clear intent to just let LeBron and Wade figure out the offense as they went) whereas 2006 was Wade's second season with Shaq

I also don't consider LeBron to have portability issues--generally speaking he is great both on and off-ball offensively and an impactful defender when engaged.

I didn't mean to imply that LeBron has any kind of general portability issues (in fact it bothers me when his onball-dominance is cited as evidence of offensive flaws), but the 2011 Finals is nonetheless a specific instance of demonstrated problematic portability. The 2011 Heat offense was content to react to opponents; if the defense loaded up against one guy then the other guy would attack. The overwhelming individual talent of LeBron and Wade was enough for this to work until Dallas introduced a new variable with their zone scheme, and while Wade succeeded (understatement) at punishing Dallas whenever and wherever his number was called, LeBron was constrained by a straight jacket of analysis paralysis which ultimately saw him defaulting to a painfully reduced mode of predictable auto-passivity because Dallas wasn't telegraphing their defense to his go-to onball attack. My take in watching nearly every LeBron game in a Heat uniform was that he hadn't yet found confidence in his jumper which then resulted in an impure read/react game because he was more prone to predetermine pass or shoot based on how his shot was falling in any given game. I don't hold it against James when evaluating his career because it was not only an isolated case of negative results, but was also essentially a case of worst case portability scenario that not many ATGs have ever had to experience, and in any case he improved. I cited this case tho because it nonetheless required an adjustment from that Heat duo and Wade was the one who undertook said adjustment, and this is a discussion about Wade's ability to adjust