Imagine if Precious/Banton had been a top 10 pick...

[Ell Curry]

A couple advanced stats notes:

Precious had a slightly better net rating than Barnes on the season.

Precious had a better one-year RAPM than Barnes as well. They were basically tied on offense, but Precious had the better defensive RAPM.

I believe in the eye test and in EPM here, which says that Barnes is a far better offensive player but Precious is a better defender. Barnes makes way more mistakes on that end.

Precious' value is that as long as he's hitting a league average on 3s, he's a passable 4 on O while being a solid 5 on D, which is the opposite of guys like Sabonis who have to play the 5 on O but can't anchor a defence.

[Appostis]

Does game one make this thread seem even more ridiculous? It should...

[treerollins]

These types of threads are reminiscent of Weems, Johnson and Derozan.

Only 1 player of the three is a legit starter in the league.

Are we talking Amir Johnson here? I don't remember those threads lmao.

But you're not wrong. 3 athletes with lots of ability but only one of them has like innate basketball skills as a young player. The other guys we hope "get it" with time/reps/coaching & experience.

I want to remember Amir as having more game than that but it's probably realistic.

[PoundTown]

These types of threads are reminiscent of Weems, Johnson and Derozan.

Only 1 player of the three is a legit starter in the league.

Are we talking Amir Johnson here? I don't remember those threads lmao.

But you're not wrong. 3 athletes with lots of ability but only one of them has like innate basketball skills as a young player. The other guys we hope "get it" with time/reps/coaching & experience.

I want to remember Amir as having more game than that but it's probably realistic.

Amir was a toss in on some trade and then showed up to camp with attitude, hustle, and was one of few guys who did any dirty work on the squads prior to Lowry's arrival. That team wanted to score and then rest on D for most part lol. I don't remember anyone ever thinking he had big potential the way they were with sonny weems, but it was more about the impact he had in regards to things not seen on scoresheet, intangibles, plus/ minus when he was playing etc. Basically, we loved him as a stability, glue piece and never expected any sort of offensive star out of him. I always wish he returned to Raps before his career was over in a 4th of 5th bench big role.

[Wannabe MEP]

Does game one make this thread seem even more ridiculous? It should...

Huh?

I thought Precious was critical. His defense in the 4th quarter was essential to the Raptors making that late run to take the lead. He played seven minutes in the 4th quarter. He ended up as 6th man in minutes and scoring, and looked like the Raptors best defender.

Barnes and Precious were both key to that win. That's the point.

[mdenny]

I think this is the season we make a big splash and trade draft picks.

In approx 18 months we went from having a bare cupboard to having Barnes, precious, delano and koloko. I'm confident they are all nba players and they dont start getting paid for 2/3/4 years.

One of the biggest risks in trading multiple firsts is when you have a bare cupboard AND no picks. We're in a great situation. We have ample salary packages, all our picks and a very intereting stockpile of young talent. I could see something like trent/young/3 picks/3 swaps/possible filler for an allstar SG.

Would have been nice to get Murray but other options will emerge come deadline.

[Appostis]

Does game one make this thread seem even more ridiculous? It should...

Huh?

I thought Precious was critical. His defense in the 4th quarter was essential to the Raptors making that late run to take the lead. He played seven minutes in the 4th quarter. He ended up as 6th man in minutes and scoring, and looked like the Raptors best defender.

Barnes and Precious were both key to that win. That's the point.

Yes.. but he's not on Barnes level despite an additional year of development.

OP acting as if they were too 10 picks they would be viewed as highly as Barnes. *Shrug*

[treerollins]

Amir was a toss in on some trade and then showed up to camp with attitude, hustle, and was one of few guys who did any dirty work on the squads prior to Lowry's arrival. That team wanted to score and then rest on D for most part lol. I don't remember anyone ever thinking he had big potential the way they were with sonny weems, but it was more about the impact he had in regards to things not seen on scoresheet, intangibles, plus/ minus when he was playing etc. Basically, we loved him as a stability, glue piece and never expected any sort of offensive star out of him. I always wish he returned to Raps before his career was over in a 4th of 5th bench big role.

Amir came to us from Detroit and was drafted right out of high school so it always felt like there was something to unlock or like maybe he got some Rasheed/Ben Wallace hidden abilities but it seemed like he had too many miles on his body despite being young. Like I said maybe I remember him fondly but he could've been first big off the bench for a good team imo.

But man, I don't remember anyone thinking Weems had big potential. I feel like he was a poor man's NormGod or TRoss on his best day. Never saw him as a starter, like 8th man up was his ceiling, primarily just an athlete.

[treerollins]

I think this is the season we make a big splash and trade draft picks.

In approx 18 months we went from having a bare cupboard to having Barnes, precious, delano and koloko. I'm confident they are all nba players and they dont start getting paid for 2/3/4 years.

One of the biggest risks in trading multiple firsts is when you have a bare cupboard AND no picks. We're in a great situation. We have ample salary packages, all our picks and a very intereting stockpile of young talent. I could see something like trent/young/3 picks/3 swaps/possible filler for an allstar SG.

It's gross that that's the default asking price in trades these days. I'd do picks and swaps for KD (even though it's kinda dumb given his age) but idk who else is worth that kinda ask. OKC would push for all the picks/swaps for SGA so who else is there that's worth it?
I agree this is the year to make a move or risk losing guys in free agency but we could also opt to acquire draft assets. Trent/OG and FVV all have the skillset to pull draft capital from any team that wants to make a deep playoff run. I mean resign them all if we can but if it's in doubt you gotta get assets.

Checking the schedule, late January we play the Bucks/Twolves/Celtics/Knicks and then west coast trip. We should know at that point if we are in win now or future mode.

[WaltFrazier]

A couple advanced stats notes:

Precious had a slightly better net rating than Barnes on the season.

Precious had a better one-year RAPM than Barnes as well. They were basically tied on offense, but Precious had the better defensive RAPM.

I believe in the eye test and in EPM here, which says that Barnes is a far better offensive player but Precious is a better defender. Barnes makes way more mistakes on that end.

Precious' value is that as long as he's hitting a league average on 3s, he's a passable 4 on O while being a solid 5 on D, which is the opposite of guys like Sabonis who have to play the 5 on O but can't anchor a defence.

Barnes definitely gets beat on D a lot, lots of blow-by's on the perimeter. It's nice he said he wants to make All Defense but he has a long way to go. It's OG the team should be promoting for All D

[Ell Curry]

A couple advanced stats notes:

Precious had a slightly better net rating than Barnes on the season.

Precious had a better one-year RAPM than Barnes as well. They were basically tied on offense, but Precious had the better defensive RAPM.

I believe in the eye test and in EPM here, which says that Barnes is a far better offensive player but Precious is a better defender. Barnes makes way more mistakes on that end.

Precious' value is that as long as he's hitting a league average on 3s, he's a passable 4 on O while being a solid 5 on D, which is the opposite of guys like Sabonis who have to play the 5 on O but can't anchor a defence.

Barnes definitely gets beat on D a lot, lots of blow-by's on the perimeter. It's nice he said he wants to make All Defense but he has a long way to go. It's OG the team should be promoting for All D

Yeah, I'd rank our defenders like this:


Top 10-15 in the league.
1. OG - Best on ball defender and game to game really solid

Well above average:
2. Siakam - Outplays OG at times but not enough, does carry more of a load on offense. Way lower floor than OG as he gets beat when he's not playing well on that end and OG is rarely the reason for a possession ending badly defensively.
3. Van Vleet - Best defender per inch but tough to be truly great at his size. Bonus points considering how many teams' worst defender is their PG.
4. Precious - Very good, could be more impactful off the ball I think.
5. Koloko - Really impressive so far. Offense might make him tough to play this season in the playoffs but if he can get stronger he could get to 1 or 2 on this list in a year or 2.
6. Trent - Tons of deflections but average size for a 2 guard.

Above average:
7. Boucher - Negative points for being a weak-side guy only really, but really good energy and contests shots well.
8. Thad - Smart defender, we'll see if he's lost a step. Good hands still.
9. Porter - Good defensive rebounder, a little worried he'll look a tad slow in our system.

Average:
10. Barnes - Makes big plays, but also more mistakes than anybody else on the list except Banton. I think he'll be 8th on this list by Xmas.
11. Birch - Smart, but negative points for being a 5 who doesn't block shots or switch particularly well, though he doesn't get embarrassed in those situations.
12. Banton - Huge breakdowns at times last year but I was pleased with his work the other night and I think his length could be really useful against other guards.
13. Dowtin - Encouraging work from him in pre-season and summer league.
14. Champagnie - Very good rebounder, but nothing else particularly pops to me eye.

Slightly below average:
15. Flynn - Great in college, haven't seen a ton yet on this end from him. Low upside ultimately on this end, but I do think he'll improve.
16. Hernangomez - Meh

Bad:
17. Ron Harper JR. - I don't think this is gonna happen here for him.

[Wannabe MEP]

That worked because they had a top 10 player of all time in Tim Duncan.

We have um .. a barely a top 20 player in the current league in Siakam ?

If we're contending for championships and this is the best option to win said championships then by all means go for it but we're not, we're a 1st round exit team with a low ceiling as presently constructed.

I don't get the logic. My argument is...

• It would make the starters better
• It would make the bench better
• It would be better for Barnes's development
• It would be better for Precious's development

And the counter is...that we're not a championship contender?

1. Yes because the there's no point in bringing Barnes off the bench to gain a couple of more wins if we're not contending.

2. You don't know if it's better for Barnes development or not.

3. Surrounding Barnes with the bench that has no shooters doesn't exactly sound ideal for him.

4. Yes it would be better for Precious but he should learn to be disciplined on offence whether he's starting or coming off the bench. I do think he should be starting but not at the expense of the player we're grooming to be the face of the franchise.

We finished three games out of second place last year. Suppose...

• +2 games for roster continuity/young guys developing
• +2 games for better health
• +2 games for lineup tweaks, such as the one I'm suggesting

If things go well (e.g., health), it's absolutely within the realm of possibility that the Raptors finish top 2 or 3 in the East, based on what we did last year.

Say we're third. We can obviously win a first round matchup. And then who knows in the second round? Maybe it's a good matchup for us. Maybe the other team has a key player injured. Maybe we're just better by then than you think we're capable of becoming. Welp, then we're in the Eastern Conference Finals.

Ya wanna develop Scottie? Give him the best chance possible to make a playoff run.

[Wannabe MEP]

2. You don't know if it's better for Barnes development or not.

I mean...sure. We're talking about the future. We can make reasonable projections, but that's it.

3. Surrounding Barnes with the bench that has no shooters doesn't exactly sound ideal for him.

1. We have numbers that show Barnes with some of the bench combos have been highly successful. E.g., Barnes-Banton-Boucher is +20.2 in 173 minutes.

2. The bench lacks playmakers. The starters have an excess of playmakers (there's only one ball). Trying to balance things out so that we're good at basketball for 48 minutes.

3. I think something like Banton-starter-Barnes-Porter-Boucher would be highly successful on both ends: very good on defense, and enough playmaking and off-ball finishing to out-score the other team's bench most of the time.

4. So part of the point of this thread is that I'm interested in developing Barnes and Banton and Precious. So you're saying putting Barnes with the bench is bad for his development because of the lack of shooters...but what about Banton's development?? What about Precious's development? The bench needs more scoring talent, period. Ideally Barnes and Banton are both always surrounded by four elite shooters, but that's impossible with this roster. But we can do a better job of balancing playmaking and shooting and defense in a way that gives our players a better chance to develop and succeed for 48 minutes.

[WaltFrazier]

I believe in the eye test and in EPM here, which says that Barnes is a far better offensive player but Precious is a better defender. Barnes makes way more mistakes on that end.

Precious' value is that as long as he's hitting a league average on 3s, he's a passable 4 on O while being a solid 5 on D, which is the opposite of guys like Sabonis who have to play the 5 on O but can't anchor a defence.

Barnes definitely gets beat on D a lot, lots of blow-by's on the perimeter. It's nice he said he wants to make All Defense but he has a long way to go. It's OG the team should be promoting for All D

Yeah, I'd rank our defenders like this:


Top 10-15 in the league.
1. OG - Best on ball defender and game to game really solid

Well above average:
2. Siakam - Outplays OG at times but not enough, does carry more of a load on offense. Way lower floor than OG as he gets beat when he's not playing well on that end and OG is rarely the reason for a possession ending badly defensively.
3. Van Vleet - Best defender per inch but tough to be truly great at his size. Bonus points considering how many teams' worst defender is their PG.
4. Precious - Very good, could be more impactful off the ball I think.
5. Koloko - Really impressive so far. Offense might make him tough to play this season in the playoffs but if he can get stronger he could get to 1 or 2 on this list in a year or 2.
6. Trent - Tons of deflections but average size for a 2 guard.

Above average:
7. Boucher - Negative points for being a weak-side guy only really, but really good energy and contests shots well.
8. Thad - Smart defender, we'll see if he's lost a step. Good hands still.
9. Porter - Good defensive rebounder, a little worried he'll look a tad slow in our system.

Average:
10. Barnes - Makes big plays, but also more mistakes than anybody else on the list except Banton. I think he'll be 8th on this list by Xmas.
11. Birch - Smart, but negative points for being a 5 who doesn't block shots or switch particularly well, though he doesn't get embarrassed in those situations.
12. Banton - Huge breakdowns at times last year but I was pleased with his work the other night and I think his length could be really useful against other guards.
13. Dowtin - Encouraging work from him in pre-season and summer league.
14. Champagnie - Very good rebounder, but nothing else particularly pops to me eye.

Slightly below average:
15. Flynn - Great in college, haven't seen a ton yet on this end from him. Low upside ultimately on this end, but I do think he'll improve.
16. Hernangomez - Meh

Bad:
17. Ron Harper JR. - I don't think this is gonna happen here for him.

Great summary, bang on. I feel like Flynn can be not bad guarding small guards, when Fred was slowed up last year Flynn did a decent job on Maxey and other quick guys in small samples. Just keeping the guy in front of him

[Wannabe MEP]

Yeah, I'd rank our defenders like this:


Top 10-15 in the league.
1. OG - Best on ball defender and game to game really solid

Well above average:
2. Siakam - Outplays OG at times but not enough, does carry more of a load on offense. Way lower floor than OG as he gets beat when he's not playing well on that end and OG is rarely the reason for a possession ending badly defensively.
3. Van Vleet - Best defender per inch but tough to be truly great at his size. Bonus points considering how many teams' worst defender is their PG.
4. Precious - Very good, could be more impactful off the ball I think.
5. Koloko - Really impressive so far. Offense might make him tough to play this season in the playoffs but if he can get stronger he could get to 1 or 2 on this list in a year or 2.
6. Trent - Tons of deflections but average size for a 2 guard.

Above average:
7. Boucher - Negative points for being a weak-side guy only really, but really good energy and contests shots well.
8. Thad - Smart defender, we'll see if he's lost a step. Good hands still.
9. Porter - Good defensive rebounder, a little worried he'll look a tad slow in our system.

Average:
10. Barnes - Makes big plays, but also more mistakes than anybody else on the list except Banton. I think he'll be 8th on this list by Xmas.
11. Birch - Smart, but negative points for being a 5 who doesn't block shots or switch particularly well, though he doesn't get embarrassed in those situations.
12. Banton - Huge breakdowns at times last year but I was pleased with his work the other night and I think his length could be really useful against other guards.
13. Dowtin - Encouraging work from him in pre-season and summer league.
14. Champagnie - Very good rebounder, but nothing else particularly pops to me eye.

Slightly below average:
15. Flynn - Great in college, haven't seen a ton yet on this end from him. Low upside ultimately on this end, but I do think he'll improve.
16. Hernangomez - Meh

Bad:
17. Ron Harper JR. - I don't think this is gonna happen here for him.

Not saying one-year DRAPM is anywhere close to perfect, but interesting to see how it rates our defenders for last season:

1. Boucher
2. Porter
3. Precious
4. FVV
5. Siakam
6. Barnes
7. OG
8. Banton
9. Champagnie
10. Trent
11. Birch
12. Flynn

Interesting. OG rates a lot better on multi-year DRAPM, so last year was probably statistically weird for some reason.

[youngRAPZ]

Amir was a toss in on some trade and then showed up to camp with attitude, hustle, and was one of few guys who did any dirty work on the squads prior to Lowry's arrival. That team wanted to score and then rest on D for most part lol. I don't remember anyone ever thinking he had big potential the way they were with sonny weems, but it was more about the impact he had in regards to things not seen on scoresheet, intangibles, plus/ minus when he was playing etc. Basically, we loved him as a stability, glue piece and never expected any sort of offensive star out of him. I always wish he returned to Raps before his career was over in a 4th of 5th bench big role.

Amir came to us from Detroit and was drafted right out of high school so it always felt like there was something to unlock or like maybe he got some Rasheed/Ben Wallace hidden abilities but it seemed like he had too many miles on his body despite being young. Like I said maybe I remember him fondly but he could've been first big off the bench for a good team imo.

But man, I don't remember anyone thinking Weems had big potential. I feel like he was a poor man's NormGod or TRoss on his best day. Never saw him as a starter, like 8th man up was his ceiling, primarily just an athlete.

People used to say he’s better and has more potential than demar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ell Curry]

Great summary, bang on. I feel like Flynn can be not bad guarding small guards, when Fred was slowed up last year Flynn did a decent job on Maxey and other quick guys in small samples. Just keeping the guy in front of him

Thanks. I'd be curious to see where Nurse disagrees. My guess is he has Boucher over Trent, which I think is correct overall but I gave Trent some positional points since he's solidly better than the average 2 guard who is often a sieve, whereas more 4/5s are good on that end like Boucher.

[Ell Curry]

Not saying one-year DRAPM is anywhere close to perfect, but interesting to see how it rates our defenders for last season:

1. Boucher
2. Porter
3. Precious
4. FVV
5. Siakam
6. Barnes
7. OG
8. Banton
9. Champagnie
10. Trent
11. Birch
12. Flynn

Interesting. OG rates a lot better on multi-year DRAPM, so last year was probably statistically weird for some reason.

Interesting. My guess is that overrates Porter due to playing with the best defender in decades in Draymond, but other than that and OG being too low it looks fairly decent. Trent gets deflections, but ultimately his lack of length might put him below the bigger wings.

[DelAbbot]

This thread not looking good tonight

[dgr81]

If either had been a top ten pick, the GM would have been fired.

This board man