AEnigma wrote:oaktownwarriors87 wrote:You do realize why the Cavs were great that year, right? They had big bodies that could defend and the packed the paint. They slowed it down old-school style.
They lost and were exposed in the playoffs by the Magic because they didn't have enough perimeter defense. The Magic spread the floor and picked them apart.
That year is probably the greatest example as to why LeBron does need help on the perimeter. And I'm not dogging LeBron, everyone needs help on the perimeter. I think LeBron is GOAT level on defense.
This is a better argument, that in the postseason specifically you need more than two guys who can defend, even if both are great. However, it would be easy to point to something like 2016, or 2017 to the extent we want to say that would be a title-level team against any other opponent, as a contrast.
Which also ties into the vagueness of this framing. Is J.R. Smith a defender? Are we considering the bench? What is the difference between “defenders”, “not defenders”, and “bad defenders”?
And the idea that Curry couldn't play with non shooters, like let's say Draymond Green, Andrew Bogut and Andre Iguodala... is insane, and it clearly shows that you have no idea what Warriors basketball is about. Even Charles Barkley calls out other teams for just jacking up 3's when what the Warriors are really about is movement.
He can, but is that a good use of him? I am not going to say he needs Klay, but Klay clearly helps, right? Poole clearly helps, right? And guys like Wiggins or 2015/16 Iguodala/Barnes/Draymond may not be “good” shooters to any particular absolute, but they are competent enough to still take advantage of Curry’s presence. If you argument is they do not need elite shooting support, sure, but by that standard neither does Lebron, and you still need some shooting support — which is where we get back into the idea of unclear frames. Wiggins and 2015/16 Iguodala/Barnes/Draymond are not “shooters”, but they are not “non-shooters”.
I mean really, why not just make this simple. Both teams get Klay, Poole, Wiggins, (younger) Iguodala, and Looney. We do not need to twist ourselves over who needs what vaguely defined build.
eminence wrote:Curry doesn’t need shooters relative to the other offensive stars of the day. Just won a title with two non shooters (Dray/Looney) and a pretty meh one (Wiggins) in his starting lineup.
That sounds like the 2020 Lakers, except without any Klay Thompson equivalent.
Defining "shooters" is hard, especially since you have to consider the system and the degree of difficulty. You might say Poole is great, but his catch-n-shoot percentage and attempts (37.9% on 4.6 attempts) were nearly identical to Carmelo Anthony (37.5% on 5.0 attempts). I'm not saying Poole isn't a great shooter, but where do we draw the line? Is Carmelo a great shooter now? Pretty much everyone in the NBA can shoot. Even "non-shooter" can still shoot. If you look at the 145 players that took 3+ attempts last season, Poole
is the median.
I'm not saying who is or isn't a shooter, I'm just saying it's hard to define in the league now league.
The Warriors system crates a variety of good looks, and players get to play within the flow of the offense. LeBrons systems are typically more stagnant, and players are taking shots with less rhythm and flow. If you want to knock down shots at a high percentage I would say that you need players that are better shooters, because knocking down those out of rhythm shots are more difficult. It's especially important in this hypothetical since LeBron and Ewing like to play in the middle of the floor. They need that spacing.
Also, the issue with the Warriors teams pre-KD is that they didn't have a second option for Curry. No one could put the ball on the floor and score/create. Irving, Wade, Kobe/Shaq, AD, Ginobili/Parker, Pippen, Gasol etc. are all legit 2nd options that can sub in as 1st options.
So while Klays shooting is great, he's not a real second option. A team could try and throw the kitchen sink at Curry and they could slow down the Warriors . That isn't happening if he has a 2nd option, and KD was that option. Now Poole is becoming that guy. KG would be that guy in this hypothetical. I'll take a legit 2nd/1st option over a guy that can shoot. That opens everyone up more than a shooters spacing.
