Which players get too much/little credit for their teams success?

[Matt15]

Who are some players that you think get too much/little credit for their team's success? That success could come in the form of their teams doing well defensively/offensively or just winning in general.

[Statlanta]

too little
Rashard Lewis/Orlando.
Birdman/Miami
David West/Indiana
Rasheed Wallace/Detroit

Too much
Rondo/Boston
Trae/Atlanta
LaVine/Chicago

[tsherkin]

too little
Rashard Lewis/Orlando.

Rasheed Wallace/Detroit

Really? All the discussions I remember at the time heavily discussed the relevance and importance of both players. Rasheed was the "missing piece" to Detroit in most conversations around the title and thereafter. And Shard was a major feature, spoken of with Dwight and Hedo.

[Tim Lehrbach]

In before Scottie Pippen and Pau Gasol make both lists.

[prolific passer]

Robert Parish.
Had to up against Moses, Kareem, and Hakeem/Sampson.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

To preface I'm basing credit and its amounts on what I've perceived on this board:

Too much credit for offense: Shaquille O'Neal. He's generally regarded as a top 3 ATG peak (ranks 2nd, 2nd, 4th and 3rd on this board's peak projects conducted in 2012, 2015, 2019 and current) and it isn't for defense, yet he's never been a part of what's generally discussed as an ATG offense. This in spite of the fact that prime Shaq was blessed with the ridiculously improbable fortune of 3 consecutive pairings with absolutely elite wing creators. My take is that his FT shooting was a greater general vulnerability than mere specific hack-a-Shaq scenarios would imply, and his relatively tiny scoring range coupled with his dependency on perimeter players to facilitate meant that Shaq wasn't the historically reliable source of go-to halfcourt scoring that the ingrained visuals of his sheer physical dominance would have us believe

Too little credit for offense: Michael Jordan. Similar to Shaq, Jordan isn't synonymous with ATG offenses. But unlike Shaq, Jordan should be. The Bulls offense posted some historic numbers both in absolute and relative terms with Jordan at the helm, they were particularly resilient vs elite defense, and they accomplished all of this with the relatively limited Scottie Pippen as a #2 and no real #3. I've looked at scoring data in series after series where Pippen struggles and all other non-Jordan Bulls players combine to deliver mediocrity at best, and yet Jordan just churns out his consistent volume and Chicago's offense proceeds to dramatically outperform elite defenses over and over and over again

Too much credit for defense: Kevin Garnett. Perhaps the poster child for when inferences of impact data can supersede reality. He's a RAPM king, but KG never participated in an elite defense until his age 31 season as Boston's starting PF. The 2008 Celtics produced a 101.4 DRTG with KG off the floor, which would've been good for a -6.1 and the #2 defense in the league. Perhaps there's an argument for KG as an ATG defensive ceiling raiser, but as a floor raiser he just doesn't have the supporting evidence

Too little credit for defense: Dwight Howard. He presided over a half-decade reign as Orlando's starting center where the Magic were one of the league's most elite defensive teams; from a +7.5 before he was drafted, to a +1.2 and +1.3 in his first two seasons when he was played at PF, 21yo Dwight moved to center in '07 and the rest is (Orlando defensive) history. Magic proceeded to rank 6th (-2.4), 6th (-2.0), 1st (-6.4), 3rd (-4.3) and 3rd (-5.3) defensively until Dwight's back issues manifested in '12. These rosters weren't exactly talented on the defensive end outside of Dwight, in fact his singular presence allowed Orlando to prioritize offense at the expense of defense with Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis at F and Jameer Nelson at PG. And yet, Dwight with his back's limited lifespan still produced a level of defense in Orlando that was far superior to anything Garnett ever accomplished in his 12 seasons in Minnesota (8 of 12 spent in the defensive red), and Dwight did this in every season of 3 consecutive seasons

[WintaSoldier1]

To preface I'm basing credit and its amounts on what I've perceived on this board:

Too much credit for offense: Shaquille O'Neal. He's generally regarded as a top 3 ATG peak (ranks 2nd, 2nd, 4th and 3rd on this board's peak projects conducted in 2012, 2015, 2019 and current) and it isn't for defense, yet he's never been a part of what's generally discussed as an ATG offense. This in spite of the fact that prime Shaq was blessed with the ridiculously improbable fortune of 3 consecutive pairings with absolutely elite wing creators. My take is that his FT shooting was a greater general vulnerability than mere specific hack-a-Shaq scenarios would imply, and his relatively tiny scoring range coupled with his dependency on perimeter players to facilitate meant that Shaq wasn't the historically reliable source of go-to halfcourt scoring that the ingrained visuals of his sheer physical dominance would have us believe

Too little credit for offense: Michael Jordan. Similar to Shaq, Jordan isn't synonymous with ATG offenses. But unlike Shaq, Jordan should be. The Bulls offense posted some historic numbers both in absolute and relative terms with Jordan at the helm, they were particularly resilient vs elite defense, and they accomplished all of this with the relatively limited Scottie Pippen as a #2 and no real #3. I've looked at scoring data in series after series where Pippen struggles and all other non-Jordan Bulls players combine to deliver mediocrity at best, and yet Jordan just churns out his consistent volume and Chicago's offense proceeds to dramatically outperform elite defenses over and over and over again

Too much credit for defense: Kevin Garnett. Perhaps the poster child for when inferences of impact data can supersede reality. He's a RAPM king, but KG never participated in an elite defense until his age 31 season as Boston's starting PF. The 2008 Celtics produced a 101.4 DRTG with KG off the floor, which would've been good for a -6.1 and the #2 defense in the league. Perhaps there's an argument for KG as an ATG defensive ceiling raiser, but as a floor raiser he just doesn't have the supporting evidence

Too little credit for defense: Dwight Howard. He presided over a half-decade reign as Orlando's starting center where the Magic were one of the league's most elite defensive teams; from a +7.5 before he was drafted, to a +1.2 and +1.3 in his first two seasons when he was played at PF, 21yo Dwight moved to center in '07 and the rest is (Orlando defensive) history. Magic proceeded to rank 6th (-2.4), 6th (-2.0), 1st (-6.4), 3rd (-4.3) and 3rd (-5.3) defensively until Dwight's back issues manifested in '12. These rosters weren't exactly talented on the defensive end outside of Dwight, in fact his singular presence allowed Orlando to prioritize offense at the expense of defense with Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis at F and Jameer Nelson at PG. And yet, Dwight with his back's limited lifespan still produced a level of defense in Orlando that was far superior to anything Garnett ever accomplished in his 12 seasons in Minnesota (8 of 12 spent in the defensive red), and Dwight did this in every season of 3 consecutive seasons

Hey where is the current peak projects voting located?

[Colbinii]

Too much credit for defense: Kevin Garnett. Perhaps the poster child for when inferences of impact data can supersede reality. He's a RAPM king, but KG never participated in an elite defense until his age 31 season as Boston's starting PF. The 2008 Celtics produced a 101.4 DRTG with KG off the floor, which would've been good for a -6.1 and the #2 defense in the league. Perhaps there's an argument for KG as an ATG defensive ceiling raiser, but as a floor raiser he just doesn't have the supporting evidence

Wasn't Garnett a GOAT level floor raiser for defense with the Wolves and then a GOAT level defensive ceiling raiser with Boston?

Isn't Garnett on two completely different rosters, one being a "floor raiser" and one being a "ceiling raiser" proving he was both?

Have you compared his On/Off numbers to Duncan, Howard and others since it is your main data point?

[LukaTheGOAT]

Too little credit on defense-Draymond Green

From 2015-2020, Draymond Green is 2nd in the NBA in Playoffs PIPM
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/j9xodj/from_20152020_playoffs_the_highest_rated_players/

This is significant because PIPM is too box-score dependent, yet someone like Draymond comes out looking so good in the metric, despite so much of what he does not showing up in the box-score.

It is not just PIPM of box-hybrid models that that are high on Draymond. From 2014-2019, Draymond lead the NBA in PS RAPTOR WAR.

From 15-17, Draymond is 2nd in PS AuPM/G.

And when you consider that Golden State's defense improves from the RS to PS more than almost any dynasty ever, I think it makes sense to look towards Draymond for a lot of Golden State's success.

Watch on YouTube

As a matter of fact, RAPTOR projections considered Draymond to be the NBA player who improved most from the RS to PS in the NBA during that time frame at a whopping 1.4 points per 100 possessions. The next most improved player was Lebron who was at 0.9 pts per 100 possessions. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-our-raptor-metric-works/

According to AuPM/G, which has data going back to 96-97, no player has improved more in from the RS to PS in their career than Draymond Green. As mentioned in the article, "among players with at least five qualifying runs, Green has the largest improvement in AuPM history. And this isn’t from slow-rolling the regular season either. In the seven seasons he’s played in the postseason, Green’s posted a hefty +3.5 AuPM per game in the regular season and then a whopping +4.7 in the playoffs. That’s like going from the sixth-best player in the league to the second." https://backpicks.com/page/6/

Kevin Pelton also wrote an article about how Draymond was statistically the 2nd biggest playoff riser during some specific time period, but I cannot find it

If you want numbers that look at the pure plus-minus side of things (and does not include anything pertaining to the box-score), I should note, Draymond looks arguably better...

Draymond is #1 in 14-18 PS RAPM, and #1 in 15-19 PS RAPM.

If we know GSW's offense declines in the PS, but their defense makes one of the biggest improvements ever, and we know that Draymond has been the captain of those GSW offenses, and all the data we have suggests he is among the biggest improvers in performance come PS time, I will put my money on him.

[LukaTheGOAT]

To preface I'm basing credit and its amounts on what I've perceived on this board:

Too much credit for offense: Shaquille O'Neal. He's generally regarded as a top 3 ATG peak (ranks 2nd, 2nd, 4th and 3rd on this board's peak projects conducted in 2012, 2015, 2019 and current) and it isn't for defense, yet he's never been a part of what's generally discussed as an ATG offense. This in spite of the fact that prime Shaq was blessed with the ridiculously improbable fortune of 3 consecutive pairings with absolutely elite wing creators. My take is that his FT shooting was a greater general vulnerability than mere specific hack-a-Shaq scenarios would imply, and his relatively tiny scoring range coupled with his dependency on perimeter players to facilitate meant that Shaq wasn't the historically reliable source of go-to halfcourt scoring that the ingrained visuals of his sheer physical dominance would have us believe

Too little credit for offense: Michael Jordan. Similar to Shaq, Jordan isn't synonymous with ATG offenses. But unlike Shaq, Jordan should be. The Bulls offense posted some historic numbers both in absolute and relative terms with Jordan at the helm, they were particularly resilient vs elite defense, and they accomplished all of this with the relatively limited Scottie Pippen as a #2 and no real #3. I've looked at scoring data in series after series where Pippen struggles and all other non-Jordan Bulls players combine to deliver mediocrity at best, and yet Jordan just churns out his consistent volume and Chicago's offense proceeds to dramatically outperform elite defenses over and over and over again

Too much credit for defense: Kevin Garnett. Perhaps the poster child for when inferences of impact data can supersede reality. He's a RAPM king, but KG never participated in an elite defense until his age 31 season as Boston's starting PF. The 2008 Celtics produced a 101.4 DRTG with KG off the floor, which would've been good for a -6.1 and the #2 defense in the league. Perhaps there's an argument for KG as an ATG defensive ceiling raiser, but as a floor raiser he just doesn't have the supporting evidence

Too little credit for defense: Dwight Howard. He presided over a half-decade reign as Orlando's starting center where the Magic were one of the league's most elite defensive teams; from a +7.5 before he was drafted, to a +1.2 and +1.3 in his first two seasons when he was played at PF, 21yo Dwight moved to center in '07 and the rest is (Orlando defensive) history. Magic proceeded to rank 6th (-2.4), 6th (-2.0), 1st (-6.4), 3rd (-4.3) and 3rd (-5.3) defensively until Dwight's back issues manifested in '12. These rosters weren't exactly talented on the defensive end outside of Dwight, in fact his singular presence allowed Orlando to prioritize offense at the expense of defense with Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis at F and Jameer Nelson at PG. And yet, Dwight with his back's limited lifespan still produced a level of defense in Orlando that was far superior to anything Garnett ever accomplished in his 12 seasons in Minnesota (8 of 12 spent in the defensive red), and Dwight did this in every season of 3 consecutive seasons

Great post, although I am not sure I agree with the commentary on Shaq never leading all-time great offenses.

From 1995-2002, Shaq had the second-best eight-year run offense of any lead player in NBA history (+8.8 rORtg) and his 1997-2001 Lakers had the best five-year postseason offense in history assuming you don't include the 06-10 Suns who only played in 4 PS.

In 1996, the Orlando magic played at a 65-win pace at full-strength and a 50-win pace without O’Neal. Without Shaq, the Magic had a +5 rORtg. But with him, they were one of the best healthy offenses ever, with a +10.8 rORtg.

From 2000-03, LA played 32 full-strength games without Shaq and posted a +0.4 rORtg. With him, they had a +7.3 rORTG.

-via Backpicks

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/29/backpicks-goat-5-shaquille-oneal/#easy-footnote-7-6885


The best 3-year offenses and defense (minimum of 20 games played across three postseason trips), we see the following unique team peaks in playoff offense per common offensive rating (cORTG) via Backpicks (since 1984 but only other potential contenders would be if you go back to Mikan days).

Common offensive rating is comparing a team’s postseason play to other teams against that same given opponent (for that particular PS). The rORTG is also listed on the side too for those who, where a team’s playoff offensive rating is compared to it’s opponent’s regular season defensive ratings.

Team Year cORTG rORTG
CLE 2015-17 13.0 9.5
PHO 2005-07 11.3 10.8
LAL 1999-01 10.8 9.2

This ranks #3 since 1984 for 3-year PS offenses, and considering offense in basketball really exploded in the 80's and afterwards, has a good chance of being the #3 best offensive peak EVER per this criterion outside of maybe the Mikan Lakers. But yeah, it is at least #3 for the parts of basketball history where all the generally "offensive GOAT talents" played.

[falcolombardi]

To preface I'm basing credit and its amounts on what I've perceived on this board:

Too much credit for offense: Shaquille O'Neal. He's generally regarded as a top 3 ATG peak (ranks 2nd, 2nd, 4th and 3rd on this board's peak projects conducted in 2012, 2015, 2019 and current) and it isn't for defense, yet he's never been a part of what's generally discussed as an ATG offense. This in spite of the fact that prime Shaq was blessed with the ridiculously improbable fortune of 3 consecutive pairings with absolutely elite wing creators. My take is that his FT shooting was a greater general vulnerability than mere specific hack-a-Shaq scenarios would imply, and his relatively tiny scoring range coupled with his dependency on perimeter players to facilitate meant that Shaq wasn't the historically reliable source of go-to halfcourt scoring that the ingrained visuals of his sheer physical dominance would have us believe

Too little credit for offense: Michael Jordan. Similar to Shaq, Jordan isn't synonymous with ATG offenses. But unlike Shaq, Jordan should be. The Bulls offense posted some historic numbers both in absolute and relative terms with Jordan at the helm, they were particularly resilient vs elite defense, and they accomplished all of this with the relatively limited Scottie Pippen as a #2 and no real #3. I've looked at scoring data in series after series where Pippen struggles and all other non-Jordan Bulls players combine to deliver mediocrity at best, and yet Jordan just churns out his consistent volume and Chicago's offense proceeds to dramatically outperform elite defenses over and over and over again

Too much credit for defense: Kevin Garnett. Perhaps the poster child for when inferences of impact data can supersede reality. He's a RAPM king, but KG never participated in an elite defense until his age 31 season as Boston's starting PF. The 2008 Celtics produced a 101.4 DRTG with KG off the floor, which would've been good for a -6.1 and the #2 defense in the league. Perhaps there's an argument for KG as an ATG defensive ceiling raiser, but as a floor raiser he just doesn't have the supporting evidence

Too little credit for defense: Dwight Howard. He presided over a half-decade reign as Orlando's starting center where the Magic were one of the league's most elite defensive teams; from a +7.5 before he was drafted, to a +1.2 and +1.3 in his first two seasons when he was played at PF, 21yo Dwight moved to center in '07 and the rest is (Orlando defensive) history. Magic proceeded to rank 6th (-2.4), 6th (-2.0), 1st (-6.4), 3rd (-4.3) and 3rd (-5.3) defensively until Dwight's back issues manifested in '12. These rosters weren't exactly talented on the defensive end outside of Dwight, in fact his singular presence allowed Orlando to prioritize offense at the expense of defense with Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis at F and Jameer Nelson at PG. And yet, Dwight with his back's limited lifespan still produced a level of defense in Orlando that was far superior to anything Garnett ever accomplished in his 12 seasons in Minnesota (8 of 12 spent in the defensive red), and Dwight did this in every season of 3 consecutive seasons

What data are you going off for shaq and jordan here?

Bulls were a great offense but i dont think they were as trascendent against great defenses as you put it. Knicks (multiple times), seattle or utah had solid defensive performances against them from what i remember

Shaq lakers run if i am correct produced all time level playoffs offense (wouldnt be surprised if they were unremarkable in reg season tho, shaq health and reg season effort were famously inconsistent)

[LukaTheGOAT]

Too much credit on offense- Jayson Tatum

Jayson Tatum
18 PS: Inflation Adjusted-17.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3%)
19 PS: Inflation Adjusted-18.3 pts per 75 (rTS% of -1%)
20 PS: Inflation Adjusted-24.7 pts per 75 (rTS% of -0.1%)
21 PS: Inflation Adjusted 26.6 pts per 75 (rTS% of 0.3%)

22 PS: 23.7 pts per 75 (rTS% of 0.2%)

Jaylen Brown

18 PS: Inflation Adjusted-21.6 pts per 75 (rTS% of 0.5%)
19 PS: Inflation Adjusted-17.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.4%)
20 PS: Inflation Adjusted-21.3 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3.9%)
21 PS: N/A

22 PS: 23 pts per 75 (rTS% of 2%)

Jayson Tatum plays a few more minutes per game this postseason though, which makes him per game scoring impact a bit more impressive. Also Tatum is treated and guarded as #1 option more than Brown, so need to keep that in mind.

However, it drives home the point for me that Tatum is a bit of a dropper on offense in the PS. He can't generate easy shots for himself as much as I would prefer. Even when he does get rim attempts, he still isn't the greatest finisher. A counter to this would be if Tatum shot better from the midrange since he can't get all the way to the rim, but he actually isn't very good from that area at the moment. Per Backpicks he shot 39% from the midrange during the 22 RS and 34% from the midrange during the 22 PS...

He is a legitimate playmaker, but not a top 10 playmaker in the league or anything. I think of him as an all-star level offensive guy, but not all-nba and DEFINITELY not an MVP level guy on the basis of offense only.

[LukaTheGOAT]

To preface I'm basing credit and its amounts on what I've perceived on this board:

Too much credit for offense: Shaquille O'Neal. He's generally regarded as a top 3 ATG peak (ranks 2nd, 2nd, 4th and 3rd on this board's peak projects conducted in 2012, 2015, 2019 and current) and it isn't for defense, yet he's never been a part of what's generally discussed as an ATG offense. This in spite of the fact that prime Shaq was blessed with the ridiculously improbable fortune of 3 consecutive pairings with absolutely elite wing creators. My take is that his FT shooting was a greater general vulnerability than mere specific hack-a-Shaq scenarios would imply, and his relatively tiny scoring range coupled with his dependency on perimeter players to facilitate meant that Shaq wasn't the historically reliable source of go-to halfcourt scoring that the ingrained visuals of his sheer physical dominance would have us believe

Too little credit for offense: Michael Jordan. Similar to Shaq, Jordan isn't synonymous with ATG offenses. But unlike Shaq, Jordan should be. The Bulls offense posted some historic numbers both in absolute and relative terms with Jordan at the helm, they were particularly resilient vs elite defense, and they accomplished all of this with the relatively limited Scottie Pippen as a #2 and no real #3. I've looked at scoring data in series after series where Pippen struggles and all other non-Jordan Bulls players combine to deliver mediocrity at best, and yet Jordan just churns out his consistent volume and Chicago's offense proceeds to dramatically outperform elite defenses over and over and over again

Too much credit for defense: Kevin Garnett. Perhaps the poster child for when inferences of impact data can supersede reality. He's a RAPM king, but KG never participated in an elite defense until his age 31 season as Boston's starting PF. The 2008 Celtics produced a 101.4 DRTG with KG off the floor, which would've been good for a -6.1 and the #2 defense in the league. Perhaps there's an argument for KG as an ATG defensive ceiling raiser, but as a floor raiser he just doesn't have the supporting evidence

Too little credit for defense: Dwight Howard. He presided over a half-decade reign as Orlando's starting center where the Magic were one of the league's most elite defensive teams; from a +7.5 before he was drafted, to a +1.2 and +1.3 in his first two seasons when he was played at PF, 21yo Dwight moved to center in '07 and the rest is (Orlando defensive) history. Magic proceeded to rank 6th (-2.4), 6th (-2.0), 1st (-6.4), 3rd (-4.3) and 3rd (-5.3) defensively until Dwight's back issues manifested in '12. These rosters weren't exactly talented on the defensive end outside of Dwight, in fact his singular presence allowed Orlando to prioritize offense at the expense of defense with Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis at F and Jameer Nelson at PG. And yet, Dwight with his back's limited lifespan still produced a level of defense in Orlando that was far superior to anything Garnett ever accomplished in his 12 seasons in Minnesota (8 of 12 spent in the defensive red), and Dwight did this in every season of 3 consecutive seasons

Hey where is the current peak projects voting located?

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2233708

[LukaTheGOAT]

too little
Rashard Lewis/Orlando.
Birdman/Miami
David West/Indiana
Rasheed Wallace/Detroit

Too much
Rondo/Boston
Trae/Atlanta
LaVine/Chicago

Reasoning for why you think Trae gets too much credit for his team's success?

[LukaTheGOAT]

Too little credit for offense: Kawhi

Kawhi is #1 in 19-22 RAPM and tied #1 in DRIP (multi-year metric that is forward looking in projecting performance).

He is #1 in O-RAPM for Jeremias Englemann's 21-22 Age-Adjusted RAPM

The 16 Warriors with Klay, Steph & draymond on the floor together:

• 120.3 ORTG (+13.9 rORTG)
• 19.9 Net Rating

The 21 Clippers with Kawhi, PG & Reggie on the floor together:

• 130.5 ORTG (+18.2 rORTG)
• 24.4 Net Rating

21 Clippers offensive ratings with kawhi and PG

Paul George and Kawhi: 125 OffRtg
Kawhi without PG: 120 OffRtg
PG without Kawhi: 114 OffRtg


Kawhi's midrange is killer for when the game slows down.

Playoffs clutch scoring from 2017-2021

Kawhi: 27 games
116 points (4.3 PPG) on 63.9% TS

Lebron: 28 games
80 points (2.9 PPG) on 51.3% TS

Giannis: 24 games
75 points (3.1 PPG) on 59.8% TS

Steph: 22 games
72 points (3.3 PPG) on 61.8% TS

KD: 20
69 points (3.45 PPG) on 54.2% TS

[Jaivl]

Too much credit for defense: Kevin Garnett. Perhaps the poster child for when inferences of impact data can supersede reality. He's a RAPM king, but KG never participated in an elite defense until his age 31 season as Boston's starting PF. The 2008 Celtics produced a 101.4 DRTG with KG off the floor, which would've been good for a -6.1 and the #2 defense in the league. Perhaps there's an argument for KG as an ATG defensive ceiling raiser, but as a floor raiser he just doesn't have the supporting evidence

Wasn't Garnett a GOAT level floor raiser for defense with the Wolves and then a GOAT level defensive ceiling raiser with Boston?

Isn't Garnett on two completely different rosters, one being a "floor raiser" and one being a "ceiling raiser" proving he was both?

Have you compared his On/Off numbers to Duncan, Howard and others since it is your main data point?

Yeah, post-prime Boston Garnett consistently beats prime Dwight on both on-court DRTg **and** on/off. Weird combination.

[Gooner]

LeBron's Cavs teammates from 2007 and 2018.

[Dutchball97]

I have a hard time with properly grading the offense of Steve Nash. He's obviously a great offensive force but was he so good he's arguably the GOAT on offense? I'm just not quite sure. 2005 especially is messing with my head on this. On one hand Dallas didn't miss a beat without him so it's hard to say he was extremely important for their offense but then he also almost singlehandedly turned the Suns from a below average offense to best in the league on that side of the ball.

His PI RAPM (which is probably the main reason for his hype here) goes from really good in Dallas (+2 to +3 range) to all-time great in Phoenix (+6, +7). The odd thing to me is that there is no significant uptick in terms of usage so it's not like this is simply due to him taking on a much larger role and his boxscore production remains almost the same as well. I'm just not really buying Nash suddenly becoming the best offensive player overnight on the Suns when there is otherwise very little to suggest he's on a completely different level than the last few years in Dallas.

There was a big discussion about Jordan being so effective on offense due to his teams being optimized around him but you never really hear this brought up about Nash. Isn't it fair to say Nash landed in a very helpful environment for him to thrive? The 7 seconds or less offense was more or less build on the skillset of Nash. If someone has a different perspective on this please share as I might very well be missing something.

[No-more-rings]

Too much credit for defense: Kevin Garnett. Perhaps the poster child for when inferences of impact data can supersede reality. He's a RAPM king, but KG never participated in an elite defense until his age 31 season as Boston's starting PF. The 2008 Celtics produced a 101.4 DRTG with KG off the floor, which would've been good for a -6.1 and the #2 defense in the league. Perhaps there's an argument for KG as an ATG defensive ceiling raiser, but as a floor raiser he just doesn't have the supporting evidence

Sort of an interesting case. I do think he gets a little too much credit for Boston’s defense. I’ve seen comments to the effect of something like “KG’s defense was the reason they were a contender”, but a year like 2010 for example KG was a low minute lower motor than when he was younger. I’m not so sure the reason he was able to lead elite defenses was because of his focus, probably rather good teammates and the system they put in place.

No one leads elite offenses or defenses without decent support despite what some want you to believe, but there is certainly credence to KG not being the floor raiser someone like Duncan or Hakeem is when it comes to defense. I think his good but not truly elite rim protection, hurts him some in an era like 2000-2008. Not sure “ceiling raising” is something that applies to defense though.

KG peaked in the wrong era though. If he played today I have no doubt he’d be like a taller stronger Draymond on defense.

[falcolombardi]

I have a hard time with properly grading the offense of Steve Nash. He's obviously a great offensive force but was he so good he's arguably the GOAT on offense? I'm just not quite sure. 2005 especially is messing with my head on this. On one hand Dallas didn't miss a beat without him so it's hard to say he was extremely important for their offense but then he also almost singlehandedly turned the Suns from a below average offense to best in the league on that side of the ball.

His PI RAPM (which is probably the main reason for his hype here) goes from really good in Dallas (+2 to +3 range) to all-time great in Phoenix (+6, +7). The odd thing to me is that there is no significant uptick in terms of usage so it's not like this is simply due to him taking on a much larger role and his boxscore production remains almost the same as well. I'm just not really buying Nash suddenly becoming the best offensive player overnight on the Suns when there is otherwise very little to suggest he's on a completely different level than the last few years in Dallas.

There was a big discussion about Jordan being so effective on offense due to his teams being optimized around him but you never really hear this brought up about Nash. Isn't it fair to say Nash landed in a very helpful environment for him to thrive? The 7 seconds or less offense was more or less build on the skillset of Nash. If someone has a different perspective on this please share as I might very well be missing something.

I dont think the reason people are so high on nash is only his plus-minus metrics as you say. The team offense results are probably a bigger reason why

But either way i am high on him more so because of his skillset. One which was very well complimented by his coach and teammates in phoenix no doubt, but he created goat (no hyperbole) level offense with that opportunity so what more can you ask of him there?