Starting a Team: Curry/Shaq vs Kobe/KG

[NO-KG-AI]

Look, I didn't say Shaq would necessarily be better today. I responded to people saying "Shaq can't play from the post,

That was not what they said. You are right you didn't actually shaq would be better, You did say he would get a boost from "spacing" based on the idea his box production would go up.

And if you think Shaq isn't a gifted passer, you should watch him play basketball at some point in your life before commenting on him.

I used your own description of shaq's passing. "Doesn't make many mistakes" is a low bar. Nice ad-hom tho

I meant Shaq's passing would benefit from more shooters on his teams. But yea, I think Shaq with more space and help defenders having to come from further away to double and triple him like is necessary is a benefit to him overall. Not sure how it plays out in the box score.

He's a gifted passer from the post. I'm shocked that is even a point of contention or whatever.

There are different advantages and different challenges in today's league over his own.

Plenty of people have questioned how many post touches someone can get in today's league. Jordansbulls literally said "How often would he get the rock down low?" My answer was plenty. He didn't say it in hieroglyphics.

[OhayoKD]

"Shaq can't play from the post"

See how this..

"How often would he get the rock down low?"

isn't this?

I believe the term is "strawman"

I meant Shaq's passing would benefit from more shooters on his teams. But yea, I think Shaq with more space and help defenders having to come from further away to double and triple him like is necessary is a benefit to him overall..

Who are you talking to?

would this spacing help shaq more than it helps the field? It doensn't matter that he can score more if everyone else's scoring boost off-sets it.

Shaq isn't benefitting unless the answer to the question above is "yes".

He's a gifted passer from the post.

First you said he was a gifted passer, period. Now you're adding a caveat.

He's "gifted"(gets disproportinate value from a skill due to non-passing attributes) in a specific situation which...

Offenses don't post up nearly as often as they did back then

...doesn't come up nearly as much.

[NO-KG-AI]

Spacing benefits any great player more than it benefits anyone else. Shaq is greater than anyone else playing right now. Offenses don't post up as much as they did back then, rightfully. That rule wouldn't, and shouldn't apply to Shaq. He'll get fed heavily, all game long, and he'll feast. Like he did in every iteration of every season he played in, regardless of rules.

I'm not doing these semantics arguments with a previously banned poster/burner account. Blocked. :cheers:

[OhayoKD]

Spacing benefits any great player more than it benefits anyone else.

According to what...

[MyUniBroDavis]

Spacing benefits any great player more than it benefits anyone else. Shaq is greater than anyone else playing right now. Offenses don't post up as much as they did back then, rightfully. That rule wouldn't, and shouldn't apply to Shaq. He'll get fed heavily, all game long, and he'll feast. Like he did in every iteration of every season he played in, regardless of rules.

I'm not doing these semantics arguments with a previously banned poster/burner account. Blocked. :cheers:

I agree that Shaq gets helped out a lot from spacing, I don’t think post is neccessarily ineffective, you just need a team that knows how to design an offense around it well with post counters and all that, but why is he a burner account I feel he’s consistent lol

I think offensively Shaq thrives today with the extra space with how much harder it is to help against him

Post play and isolation are in the same bucket to me, I don’t this post play is inherently worse, some teams run it poorly some teams run it great

The passing reads from the post are pretty simple too, I mean with the basic kinds of help, nba offenses (well the good ones) are pretty good at making the basic reads and corresponding counters, if they help from the baseline set wait for the pin down flare and pass it to the corner, if the help up high pass it to the cutter from the wing, Shaq shouldn’t struggle to make those reads I’d think

[NO-KG-AI]

Spacing benefits any great player more than it benefits anyone else. Shaq is greater than anyone else playing right now. Offenses don't post up as much as they did back then, rightfully. That rule wouldn't, and shouldn't apply to Shaq. He'll get fed heavily, all game long, and he'll feast. Like he did in every iteration of every season he played in, regardless of rules.

I'm not doing these semantics arguments with a previously banned poster/burner account. Blocked. :cheers:

I agree that Shaq gets helped out a lot from spacing, I don’t think post is neccessarily ineffective, you just need a team that knows how to design an offense around it well with post counters and all that, but why is he a burner account I feel he’s consistent lol

I think offensively Shaq thrives today with the extra space with how much harder it is to help against him

Post play and isolation are in the same bucket to me, I don’t this post play is inherently worse, some teams run it poorly some teams run it great

The passing reads from the post are pretty simple too, I mean with the basic kinds of help, nba offenses (well the good ones) are pretty good at making the basic reads and corresponding counters, if they help from the baseline set wait for the pin down flare and pass it to the corner, if the help up high pass it to the cutter from the wing, Shaq shouldn’t struggle to make those reads I’d think

I think it's just a case of that their are just flat out less guys that ever lived that are actually worth running a post heavy offense through. There are a ton of 6'8 and under guys that are capable scorers and passers that you can iso and pnr to efficient offense with. There just aren't a ton of huge guys with the scoring and passing ability to really make it worthwhile to run post heavy offense, but despite that, tons of teams tried to do it for ages just because of popular opinion that running through the post/bigs was so much better.

Shaq is one of the rare exceptions to the post thing though. You absolutely run it through him. I think teams realize that if you don't have a Shaq, it's better to focus your offense elsewhere... and no one has had a Shaq since then, hence the big shift away from the post.

[OhayoKD]

Spacing benefits any great player more than it benefits anyone else. Shaq is greater than anyone else playing right now. Offenses don't post up as much as they did back then, rightfully. That rule wouldn't, and shouldn't apply to Shaq. He'll get fed heavily, all game long, and he'll feast. Like he did in every iteration of every season he played in, regardless of rules.

I'm not doing these semantics arguments with a previously banned poster/burner account. Blocked. :cheers:

I agree that Shaq gets helped out a lot from spacing, I don’t think post is neccessarily ineffective, you just need a team that knows how to design an offense around it well with post counters and all that, but why is he a burner account I feel he’s consistent lol

KG-AI doesn't like that they were called out for strawmanning and ad-hom. Why discuss stuff in good-faith when you can just say "burner!" and dip

[Ian Scuffling]

LOL...This shouldn't even be close. I'm glad to see it isn't. Curry's gravity and Shaq's dominance. It would be very ugly for every other team in the association.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Spacing benefits any great player more than it benefits anyone else. Shaq is greater than anyone else playing right now. Offenses don't post up as much as they did back then, rightfully. That rule wouldn't, and shouldn't apply to Shaq. He'll get fed heavily, all game long, and he'll feast. Like he did in every iteration of every season he played in, regardless of rules.

I'm not doing these semantics arguments with a previously banned poster/burner account. Blocked. :cheers:

I agree that Shaq gets helped out a lot from spacing, I don’t think post is neccessarily ineffective, you just need a team that knows how to design an offense around it well with post counters and all that, but why is he a burner account I feel he’s consistent lol

I think offensively Shaq thrives today with the extra space with how much harder it is to help against him

Post play and isolation are in the same bucket to me, I don’t this post play is inherently worse, some teams run it poorly some teams run it great

The passing reads from the post are pretty simple too, I mean with the basic kinds of help, nba offenses (well the good ones) are pretty good at making the basic reads and corresponding counters, if they help from the baseline set wait for the pin down flare and pass it to the corner, if the help up high pass it to the cutter from the wing, Shaq shouldn’t struggle to make those reads I’d think

I think it's just a case of that their are just flat out less guys that ever lived that are actually worth running a post heavy offense through. There are a ton of 6'8 and under guys that are capable scorers and passers that you can iso and pnr to efficient offense with. There just aren't a ton of huge guys with the scoring and passing ability to really make it worthwhile to run post heavy offense, but despite that, tons of teams tried to do it for ages just because of popular opinion that running through the post/bigs was so much better.

Shaq is one of the rare exceptions to the post thing though. You absolutely run it through him. I think teams realize that if you don't have a Shaq, it's better to focus your offense elsewhere... and no one has had a Shaq since then, hence the big shift away from the post.

I agree, I was more pushing back at the statement that post play is inherently worse so high level post scorers can’t function, when a guy like Jokic last year primarily played from the post, and guys like embiid too. There’s more space for bully ball I think

But some teams are really dumb trying to score from the post, the vogel Lakers were heinous 2021 and 2022 for example.