2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[KGtabake]

I think Luka will win the MVP award, but Giannis is still the best player in basketball.

Giannis is the best combination of a physical freak and basketball talent but as a pure basketball talent, Luka absolutely trumps Giannis.

How? Giannis is worlds better defensively.
I don't think it's debatable.
Only Embiid has Giannis' 2 way talent but he lacks the mindset.

[Ron Swanson]

The handicapping of guys' "talent" because of their size/athleticism continues to be one of the dumbest modern sports cliches in existence. Someone go out and tell Wilt, Lebron, Shaq, and Kareem that they "just weren't that talented", I mean, at least compared to some super skilled 6'6 guy that can shoot/pass/dribble like Brandon Roy.

[Yuri36]

I think Luka will win the MVP award, but Giannis is still the best player in basketball.

Giannis is the best combination of a physical freak and basketball talent but as a pure basketball talent, Luka absolutely trumps Giannis.

How? Giannis is worlds better defensively.
I don't think it's debatable.
Only Embiid has Giannis' 2 way talent but he lacks the mindset.

Again mostly because of his physical freakness, not because he has better defensive instincts (and Luka's defense is actually underrated to be fair).

[Yuri36]

The handicapping of guys' "talent" because of their size/athleticism continues to be one of the dumbest modern sports cliches in existence. Someone go out and tell Wilt, Lebron, Shaq, and Kareem that they "just weren't that talented", I mean, at least compared to some super skilled 6'6 guy that can shoot/pass/dribble like Brandon Roy.

Let's not caricature what I said, Giannis has obviously some basketball talent and is also a hard worker in order to improve different aspects of his game.
And Kareem actually shouldn't belong in your list cause a bit like Hakeem, I would say that he was almost more talented as a pure basketball player than he was a physical freak (which I would argue could have been the reverse for the other 3, particularly Shaq)

[Ron Swanson]

Giannis is the best combination of a physical freak and basketball talent but as a pure basketball talent, Luka absolutely trumps Giannis.

How? Giannis is worlds better defensively.
I don't think it's debatable.
Only Embiid has Giannis' 2 way talent but he lacks the mindset.

Again mostly because of his physical freakness, not because he has better defensive instincts (and Luka's defense is actually underrated to be fair).

Giannis is on a completely different tier of defensive IQ than Luka. What is going on here?

[therealbig3]

Pure basketball instincts means diddly squat in terms of how good a player actually is. It’s kind of a meaningless argument to try and give an advantage to an inferior player.

Giannis and Jokic are the two best players in basketball, it’s not even that debatable to me at this point. Luka is a decent 3rd pick, but there are still legit questions about his ball dominance and his defense.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

How? Giannis is worlds better defensively.
I don't think it's debatable.
Only Embiid has Giannis' 2 way talent but he lacks the mindset.

Again mostly because of his physical freakness, not because he has better defensive instincts (and Luka's defense is actually underrated to be fair).

Giannis is on a completely different tier of defensive IQ than Luka. What is going on here?

Watch on YouTube

Zero instinct on what I consider a Top 10 in Finals history
ETA: God damn that block was special. 1 minute left. Series tied 2-2. dunk would've made it a tie game. Giannis in post game interviews talked about how he didnt see Ayton or the ball but just knew he had to get his hand in front of the rim.

[therealbig3]

Btw, most people seem to agree that Giannis and Jokic are the best players in the game, and Embiid is certainly up there when healthy.

All the talk about the death of the big man with the modern game…we were really talking what, a few years during the late 2000s, early 2010s when Dwight Howard was the best big in the league by a mile? Otherwise the 00s was the golden age for the PF, and right now, I’d say the quality of bigs around the league is as good if not better than the 90s. Certainly comparable.

[Exp0sed]

How? Giannis is worlds better defensively.
I don't think it's debatable.
Only Embiid has Giannis' 2 way talent but he lacks the mindset.

Again mostly because of his physical freakness, not because he has better defensive instincts (and Luka's defense is actually underrated to be fair).

Giannis is on a completely different tier of defensive IQ than Luka. What is going on here?

Giannis is a much better defender than Luka but i'm not sure he does it with his I.Q haha

[therealbig3]

Btw, before we crown Luka, aside from Giannis and Jokic, there’s also the curious case of Steph Curry, who happens to be the reigning FMVP with a Finals series for the ages.

I really don’t see how Luka has passed him yet.

[therealbig3]

Again mostly because of his physical freakness, not because he has better defensive instincts (and Luka's defense is actually underrated to be fair).

Giannis is on a completely different tier of defensive IQ than Luka. What is going on here?

Giannis is a much better defender than Luka but i'm not sure he does it with his I.Q haha

So?

[mcvdang]

This league belongs to Luka and Giannis in tier 1. Tatum and Jokic are tier 1.5. The rest are tier 2 and below.

Ja is currently a monster, but his game is too reliant on pure athleticism, and when they use length to defend his athleticism, his game drops drastically. His style isn't going to age well when he has nagging injuries and he's not able to do 360 layups. He doesn't have any "easy" shots.

[Ron Swanson]

Where on earth is there evidence to suggest that Luka has even significantly above-average defensive IQ? Or are you guys just lazily equating being a brilliant offensive floor general with being great in all aspects of intangibles? Steve Nash was a more cerebral passer/play-maker than even Luka, yet his defensive IQ was absolute garbage. This is like saying Magic Johnson had better or equal defensive awareness to David Robinson. It's absolute nonsense.

[WarriorGM]

Btw, before we crown Luka, aside from Giannis and Jokic, there’s also the curious case of Steph Curry, who happens to be the reigning FMVP with a Finals series for the ages.

I really don’t see how Luka has passed him yet.

You know what makes it even more curious?

Curry is the only unanimous MVP in NBA history.

As I see it that either means he should be a perennial contender or he's been retired from contention because what would adding just another MVP really do for his résumé?

[Exp0sed]

Btw, before we crown Luka, aside from Giannis and Jokic, there’s also the curious case of Steph Curry, who happens to be the reigning FMVP with a Finals series for the ages.

I really don’t see how Luka has passed him yet.

from the first NBA season (55-56) to this current season (22-23) - 67 MVP awards have been awarded

of those 67 awards. 2 were awarded to a player aged 34+ (Curry's current age):

98-99 - Malone, 35
97-98 - Jordan, 34

The last time a player over 30 (not 34..30!) won MVP was Nash back in 05-06' when he was 31

MVP is a commulative award, it doesn't award the "best" player in the league but rather the players who contributed the most to his team

old players, don't tend to fare well in such a race

Curry is old, he's gonna be load managed (rightfully so) and isn't going to play at maximum effort night in and night out, because 34-35 year olds are incapable of that

Kerr even said something about cutting a few extra mins from his older starters this season, obviously that depends on the standings and how their young guys will perform but realistically, It won't be Curry

Curry is a true ATG and still an incredibly impactful player even at 34, but he's obviously outside his prime and players almost always - win MVP's in their prime, just the way it is

[Whopper_Sr]

It's Tatum one week in

[Colbinii]

Where on earth is there evidence to suggest that Luka has even significantly above-average defensive IQ? Or are you guys just lazily equating being a brilliant offensive floor general with being great in all aspects of intangibles? Steve Nash was a more cerebral passer/play-maker than even Luka, yet his defensive IQ was absolute garbage. This is like saying Magic Johnson had better or equal defensive awareness to David Robinson. It's absolute nonsense.

What made Nash's defensive IQ garbage?

I always felt he had a good feel for the game defensively but his physical attributes were non-existent.

[therealbig3]

Btw, before we crown Luka, aside from Giannis and Jokic, there’s also the curious case of Steph Curry, who happens to be the reigning FMVP with a Finals series for the ages.

I really don’t see how Luka has passed him yet.

from the first NBA season (55-56) to this current season (22-23) - 67 MVP awards have been awarded

of those 67 awards. 2 were awarded to a player aged 34+ (Curry's current age):

98-99 - Malone, 35
97-98 - Jordan, 34

The last time a player over 30 (not 34..30!) won MVP was Nash back in 05-06' when he was 31

MVP is a commulative award, it doesn't award the "best" player in the league but rather the players who contributed the most to his team

old players, don't tend to fare well in such a race

Curry is old, he's gonna be load managed (rightfully so) and isn't going to play at maximum effort night in and night out, because 34-35 year olds are incapable of that

Kerr even said something about cutting a few extra mins from his older starters this season, obviously that depends on the standings and how their young guys will perform but realistically, It won't be Curry

Curry is a true ATG and still an incredibly impactful player even at 34, but he's obviously outside his prime and players almost always - win MVP's in their prime, just the way it is

That’s fine, Luka can have better raw numbers, but Curry is still arguably the most impactful player in the game. I don’t see how Luka can be called a better player than Curry at this point in time.

[jokeboy86]

It's funny I thought Jokic had no chance in hell of winning MVP this year not only because it would be 3 in a row but importantly cause his stats would take a hit with Porter and Murray back. But if he averages damn near a triple double and the Nuggets finish 1 or 2 it would be hard not to have him in the conversation. Plus a big man averaging a triple double simply would be unprecedented.

[Yuri36]

How? Giannis is worlds better defensively.
I don't think it's debatable.
Only Embiid has Giannis' 2 way talent but he lacks the mindset.

Again mostly because of his physical freakness, not because he has better defensive instincts (and Luka's defense is actually underrated to be fair).

Giannis is on a completely different tier of defensive IQ than Luka. What is going on here?

Humm other than rebounding (where Luka is really not too shabby considering his athletic limitations) and blocks which are both 90% dued to his godly athleticism (especially blocking), what does he do better than Luka defensively?
Getting steals? Oups Luka is getting around the same despite not even being close to have the same length of hands as Giannis.