Game 3: Detroit Pistons (1-1) @ Indiana Pacers (0-2) - 7 PM EST

[Manocad]

Thank you Manocad, without your divine influence I would not have known that Weaver and Casey see things differently to me. I also would not have known that they didn’t sign Bagley to make him ride the bench, so thank you wise one.

Jokes aside, I’m not going down the path with you again to remind you this is a message board and while we will comment and discuss things that have actually happened we will also talk about what we think is the best option for the team. If you only want to discuss facts and not hypotheticals, cool but don’t piss on others or my parade. Simply scroll on by.

It also doesn’t take a genius to know that things will and can be learnt during training, but this also need to be learnt in game under the lights of the arena and in front of fans against their competition. You can learn all you want in training but if you can’t do it in game against opposing teams it translates to nothing.

When you post things like "The guy the team signed for 3 years and $37.5 million should never play anything but garbage minutes" it implies you're not aware that a team doesn't sign a player for 3 years and $37.5 million to only play garbage minutes because you presented no argument whatsoever as to WHY Bagley should play only garbage minutes.

Let me remind you that me commenting on your posts counts as part of the discussion, and I am under no obligation to ignore your posts because you may not like my response. It is not against the TOS to disagree, and I disagree with your assessment of Bagley only playing garbage minutes. It is however against the TOS to backseat moderate which is what you're doing, and I used to be a moderator on this board so I know what I'm talking about. If you don't want to see my responses it's YOUR responsibility to simply put me on your "foe" list and you'll never see a thing I ever post, rather than thinking you're going to "moderate" me away. That's why the "foe" list exists; so mods don't have to deal with the "boo hoo hoo, he hurt my feelings, make him go away" stuff when no violation of the TOS occurred.

Do I really need to provide reasons why Marvin effing Bagley doesn’t deserve playing time? If you don’t know why there’s clearly no point in discussing anything with you but you are more intelligent than that which simply means you are being an ass which leads me to my next point.

I’m not trying to moderate anything or anyone, this is a message board for crying out loud, there is nothing you could say or do that would hurt my feelings, I do not believe in using the foe list and wouldn’t start now. I’ve had the same old time wasting discussions with you before and you have stated you don’t like to talk on projections or ideas and you only like to talk about what is actually happening or happened, which I respect, but also don’t expect you to making ass comments on things you don’t like discussing. Telling me that Weacer and Casey see different to me, how is that not a ridiculous thing to say? Of course they do. It’s almost as dumb as you trying to tell me I think I know better than Weaver about a post I made when I started the post with “I do not think I’m smarter than Weaver”. There’s commenting and then there’s being a disruptive ass, which is what you are being by making these kind of statements.

This is reminiscent of Kanye West not getting the gay fish joke while Carlos Mencia says "Come on, man...just GET it."

When you say a player a pretty smart GM just signed to a 3 year, $37.5 million contract deserves nothing more than garbage time, you should provide reasoning or it absolutely comes off as "I know better than he does," i.e. a belief that Bagley is the worst (or near it) player on the entire roster. I've seen Bagley play and I believe he has the offensive skill and size this team needs on its bench; I don't have any problem discussing the subject or providing reasoning why I disagree with your assessment.

Throwing a fit and saying I should scroll by your posts because A) you don't want me responding to them, and B) you refuse to use the foe list, is simply being disruptive. And hypocritical to boot since you don't practice what you preach and simply scroll past my response.

[mattao313]

Our defense was gonna suck this year. We all knew that, right?

Cade can be good, but is just ok right now. Ivey and Duren are rooks. Bojan and (probably) Bey just aren’t physically capable. That’s five of our primary eight guys. Add in bonehead Bagley, ground bound Stewart and CoJo.

I mean, really, our only plus defenders are Killian and Stewart (at the 4). Maybe Noel, we’ll see how he looks.

I actually think Cade is legit bad on defense

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

[A_dub06]

When you post things like "The guy the team signed for 3 years and $37.5 million should never play anything but garbage minutes" it implies you're not aware that a team doesn't sign a player for 3 years and $37.5 million to only play garbage minutes because you presented no argument whatsoever as to WHY Bagley should play only garbage minutes.

Let me remind you that me commenting on your posts counts as part of the discussion, and I am under no obligation to ignore your posts because you may not like my response. It is not against the TOS to disagree, and I disagree with your assessment of Bagley only playing garbage minutes. It is however against the TOS to backseat moderate which is what you're doing, and I used to be a moderator on this board so I know what I'm talking about. If you don't want to see my responses it's YOUR responsibility to simply put me on your "foe" list and you'll never see a thing I ever post, rather than thinking you're going to "moderate" me away. That's why the "foe" list exists; so mods don't have to deal with the "boo hoo hoo, he hurt my feelings, make him go away" stuff when no violation of the TOS occurred.

Do I really need to provide reasons why Marvin effing Bagley doesn’t deserve playing time? If you don’t know why there’s clearly no point in discussing anything with you but you are more intelligent than that which simply means you are being an ass which leads me to my next point.

I’m not trying to moderate anything or anyone, this is a message board for crying out loud, there is nothing you could say or do that would hurt my feelings, I do not believe in using the foe list and wouldn’t start now. I’ve had the same old time wasting discussions with you before and you have stated you don’t like to talk on projections or ideas and you only like to talk about what is actually happening or happened, which I respect, but also don’t expect you to making ass comments on things you don’t like discussing. Telling me that Weacer and Casey see different to me, how is that not a ridiculous thing to say? Of course they do. It’s almost as dumb as you trying to tell me I think I know better than Weaver about a post I made when I started the post with “I do not think I’m smarter than Weaver”. There’s commenting and then there’s being a disruptive ass, which is what you are being by making these kind of statements.

This is reminiscent of Kanye West not getting the gay fish joke while Carlos Mencia says "Come on, man...just GET it."

When you say a player a pretty smart GM just signed to a 3 year, $37.5 million contract deserves nothing more than garbage time, you should provide reasoning or it absolutely comes off as "I know better than he does," i.e. a belief that Bagley is the worst (or near it) player on the entire roster. I've seen Bagley play and I believe he has the offensive skill and size this team needs on its bench; I don't have any problem discussing the subject or providing reasoning why I disagree with your assessment.

Throwing a fit and saying I should scroll by your posts because A) you don't want me responding to them, and B) you refuse to use the foe list, is simply being disruptive. And hypocritical to boot since you don't practice what you preach and simply scroll past my response.

Mate the proof is the pudding, go see the Bagley contract thread and there’s countless reasons why Bagley doesn’t deserve playing time. One of the worst in the league on defence, can’t shoot at all, can’t hide him at Centre and playing power forward only takes time away from guys like Bey and Livers. The emergence of Duren is just adding to that list, and there’s even more reasons which I really don’t feel like rehashing. If you don’t agree with that it’s fine it’s your opinion, but you’ll die on a hill with the idea that he does and just because a gm signed a player it doesn’t mean it’s the “right” choice nor does disagree with a gm signing mean you think you are smarter. Did Mozgov deserve that huge contract he signed?

Hardly throwing a fit but good on you to exaggerate what I’m saying. And it’s hypocritical of you to call me out for not providing reasons for why a player doesn’t deserve minutes when you yourself didn’t provide any for why he does. If you want to discuss actual basketball I’m more than keen for it but instead you make claims like I think I know better than a gm and things that don’t need to be said like a gm signing a player means that they like them and want to play them. That’s not talking basketball, just you being an ass.

[Uncle Mxy]

I actually think Cade is legit bad on defense

Cade's not good at defending at PG. That's what I'm hoping Ivey can bring.

[bstein14]

Super small sample size, but according to the "advanced" stats, Duren is early on our best defender.... with CoJo, Ivey, and Bojan being our three worst defenders. Bey was one of our lower rated defenders last year (along with Bagley) but he's actually closer to being a better than average defender this season.... I know I know three games is a super small sample size.... but its good to see he's at least starting this season going the other direction on defense.

[bstein14]

I actually think Cade is legit bad on defense

Cade's not good at defending at PG. That's what I'm hoping Ivey can bring.

Cade looks noticeably slower out there after putting on weight.... or maybe Ivey is just so fast that Cade seems slower. That said, I think we're fine going with a smaller SF at times and letting Cade defend some of the SF matchups and then you can have a Diallo or Burks (who is playing SF) defend one of the quicker guards.

[mattao313]

I actually think Cade is legit bad on defense

Cade's not good at defending at PG. That's what I'm hoping Ivey can bring.

Yeah hopefully but I'm not sure ivey has that dog in him on that side to be more then neutral we'll see tho.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

[Manocad]

Do I really need to provide reasons why Marvin effing Bagley doesn’t deserve playing time? If you don’t know why there’s clearly no point in discussing anything with you but you are more intelligent than that which simply means you are being an ass which leads me to my next point.

I’m not trying to moderate anything or anyone, this is a message board for crying out loud, there is nothing you could say or do that would hurt my feelings, I do not believe in using the foe list and wouldn’t start now. I’ve had the same old time wasting discussions with you before and you have stated you don’t like to talk on projections or ideas and you only like to talk about what is actually happening or happened, which I respect, but also don’t expect you to making ass comments on things you don’t like discussing. Telling me that Weacer and Casey see different to me, how is that not a ridiculous thing to say? Of course they do. It’s almost as dumb as you trying to tell me I think I know better than Weaver about a post I made when I started the post with “I do not think I’m smarter than Weaver”. There’s commenting and then there’s being a disruptive ass, which is what you are being by making these kind of statements.

This is reminiscent of Kanye West not getting the gay fish joke while Carlos Mencia says "Come on, man...just GET it."

When you say a player a pretty smart GM just signed to a 3 year, $37.5 million contract deserves nothing more than garbage time, you should provide reasoning or it absolutely comes off as "I know better than he does," i.e. a belief that Bagley is the worst (or near it) player on the entire roster. I've seen Bagley play and I believe he has the offensive skill and size this team needs on its bench; I don't have any problem discussing the subject or providing reasoning why I disagree with your assessment.

Throwing a fit and saying I should scroll by your posts because A) you don't want me responding to them, and B) you refuse to use the foe list, is simply being disruptive. And hypocritical to boot since you don't practice what you preach and simply scroll past my response.

Mate the proof is the pudding, go see the Bagley contract thread and there’s countless reasons why Bagley doesn’t deserve playing time. One of the worst in the league on defence, can’t shoot at all, can’t hide him at Centre and playing power forward only takes time away from guys like Bey and Livers. The emergence of Duren is just adding to that list, and there’s even more reasons which I really don’t feel like rehashing. If you don’t agree with that it’s fine it’s your opinion, but you’ll die on a hill with the idea that he does and just because a gm signed a player it doesn’t mean it’s the “right” choice nor does disagree with a gm signing mean you think you are smarter. Did Mozgov deserve that huge contract he signed?

Hardly throwing a fit but good on you to exaggerate what I’m saying. And it’s hypocritical of you to call me out for not providing reasons for why a player doesn’t deserve minutes when you yourself didn’t provide any for why he does. If you want to discuss actual basketball I’m more than keen for it but instead you make claims like I think I know better than a gm and things that don’t need to be said like a gm signing a player means that they like them and want to play them. That’s not talking basketball, just you being an ass.

I did provide reasons why I think Bagley will be good for this team--he has the offensive skill set and size in the middle that this team lacks. I don't think he's a substitute for Livers and Bey; he scores in the post and they don't, period (I'm not even going to get into the idea that calling either Livers or Bey power forwards is a joke; they just get forced to play there due to lack of options)."Can't shoot at all"? He shoots 54.6% from 2 in his career and 50.1% overall; he just hasn't shot 3's well...on a whopping 2 attempts per game. In fact, when healthy he is without a doubt the best post scoring option this team has at the moment. And he's played all of 18 games with the Pistons so the evaluation that he'll never be able to play decent defense when he certainly has the athleticism to is premature at best, which I've said before. Not deserving a 3 year, $37.5 million contract and likening him to the worst player on the team are not the same things, and the "garbage time" comment is specifically what I addressed. You can die on that hill if you'd like, but you can find more instances of people believing Bagley can help this team--overpaid or not--as you can of people saying he should only play garbage time. I think it's pretty easy to assume Weaver and Casey envision Bagley playing a role that's different from what you would expect him to play; that doesn't mean they're wrong. You ignoring all that and playing the "I'm not going to explain myself" card isn't talking basketball; it's you being an ass. Stick to talking basketball, supporting your points, and refuting counterpoints. It plays a lot better here than the "You're just trying to give me a hard time" stuff.

[MotownMadness]

Super small sample size, but according to the "advanced" stats, Duren is early on our best defender.... with CoJo, Ivey, and Bojan being our three worst defenders. Bey was one of our lower rated defenders last year (along with Bagley) but he's actually closer to being a better than average defender this season.... I know I know three games is a super small sample size.... but its good to see he's at least starting this season going the other direction on defense.

What defensive stats are you using?

[bstein14]

This is reminiscent of Kanye West not getting the gay fish joke while Carlos Mencia says "Come on, man...just GET it."

When you say a player a pretty smart GM just signed to a 3 year, $37.5 million contract deserves nothing more than garbage time, you should provide reasoning or it absolutely comes off as "I know better than he does," i.e. a belief that Bagley is the worst (or near it) player on the entire roster. I've seen Bagley play and I believe he has the offensive skill and size this team needs on its bench; I don't have any problem discussing the subject or providing reasoning why I disagree with your assessment.

Throwing a fit and saying I should scroll by your posts because A) you don't want me responding to them, and B) you refuse to use the foe list, is simply being disruptive. And hypocritical to boot since you don't practice what you preach and simply scroll past my response.

Mate the proof is the pudding, go see the Bagley contract thread and there’s countless reasons why Bagley doesn’t deserve playing time. One of the worst in the league on defence, can’t shoot at all, can’t hide him at Centre and playing power forward only takes time away from guys like Bey and Livers. The emergence of Duren is just adding to that list, and there’s even more reasons which I really don’t feel like rehashing. If you don’t agree with that it’s fine it’s your opinion, but you’ll die on a hill with the idea that he does and just because a gm signed a player it doesn’t mean it’s the “right” choice nor does disagree with a gm signing mean you think you are smarter. Did Mozgov deserve that huge contract he signed?

Hardly throwing a fit but good on you to exaggerate what I’m saying. And it’s hypocritical of you to call me out for not providing reasons for why a player doesn’t deserve minutes when you yourself didn’t provide any for why he does. If you want to discuss actual basketball I’m more than keen for it but instead you make claims like I think I know better than a gm and things that don’t need to be said like a gm signing a player means that they like them and want to play them. That’s not talking basketball, just you being an ass.

I did provide reasons why I think Bagley will be good for this team--he has the offensive skill set and size in the middle that this team lacks. I don't think he's a substitute for Livers and Bey; he scores in the post and they don't, period (I'm not even going to get into the idea that calling either Livers or Bey power forwards is a joke; they just get forced to play there due to lack of options)."Can't shoot at all"? He shoots 54.6% from 2 in his career and 50.1% overall; he just hasn't shot 3's well...on a whopping 2 attempts per game. In fact, when healthy he is without a doubt the best post scoring option this team has at the moment. And he's played all of 18 games with the Pistons so the evaluation that he'll never be able to play decent defense when he certainly has the athleticism to is premature at best, which I've said before. Not deserving a 3 year, $37.5 million contract and likening him to the worst player on the team are not the same things, and the "garbage time" comment is specifically what I addressed. You can die on that hill if you'd like, but you can find more instances of people believing Bagley can help this team--overpaid or not--as you can of people saying he should only play garbage time. You ignoring all that and playing the "I'm not going to explain myself" card isn't talking basketball; it's you being an ass. Stick to talking basketball, supporting your points, and refuting counterpoints. It plays a lot better here than the "You're just trying to give me a hard time" stuff.

I'd say its pretty safe to say that Bagley hasn't shown he can shoot the basketball.
66% FT Shooter last season
Nearly half his FGAs were inside 5 feet and he made 68.3% of those (which is good, he's good at scoring inside)
22% of his FGAs were in the 5-9 ft range, and he made 49% of those (ok)
31% of his FGAs were 10ft or more and he made 25% of those (really bad).

He's good inside 10 feet but really bad anywhere outside of 10 ft from the basket. Even 49% from the 5 - 9 ft range I would assume has to be slightly below average for centers in this league. As a rookie Beef Stew shot 49% from 5-9 ft range.

If you just look at centers from 5-9 feet last year tons of them shot above 49%. Including bad or non shooters like Drummond, Noel, Ayton(58.6%), Hartenstein(54.8%), McGee, Garza, etc.

So the only place he is really a good efficient scorer is within 5 feet of the basket, and a lot of his touches there is going to depend on our guards setting him up.... or his ability to take his man to the basket and get inside for the score.

[Manocad]

Mate the proof is the pudding, go see the Bagley contract thread and there’s countless reasons why Bagley doesn’t deserve playing time. One of the worst in the league on defence, can’t shoot at all, can’t hide him at Centre and playing power forward only takes time away from guys like Bey and Livers. The emergence of Duren is just adding to that list, and there’s even more reasons which I really don’t feel like rehashing. If you don’t agree with that it’s fine it’s your opinion, but you’ll die on a hill with the idea that he does and just because a gm signed a player it doesn’t mean it’s the “right” choice nor does disagree with a gm signing mean you think you are smarter. Did Mozgov deserve that huge contract he signed?

Hardly throwing a fit but good on you to exaggerate what I’m saying. And it’s hypocritical of you to call me out for not providing reasons for why a player doesn’t deserve minutes when you yourself didn’t provide any for why he does. If you want to discuss actual basketball I’m more than keen for it but instead you make claims like I think I know better than a gm and things that don’t need to be said like a gm signing a player means that they like them and want to play them. That’s not talking basketball, just you being an ass.

I did provide reasons why I think Bagley will be good for this team--he has the offensive skill set and size in the middle that this team lacks. I don't think he's a substitute for Livers and Bey; he scores in the post and they don't, period (I'm not even going to get into the idea that calling either Livers or Bey power forwards is a joke; they just get forced to play there due to lack of options)."Can't shoot at all"? He shoots 54.6% from 2 in his career and 50.1% overall; he just hasn't shot 3's well...on a whopping 2 attempts per game. In fact, when healthy he is without a doubt the best post scoring option this team has at the moment. And he's played all of 18 games with the Pistons so the evaluation that he'll never be able to play decent defense when he certainly has the athleticism to is premature at best, which I've said before. Not deserving a 3 year, $37.5 million contract and likening him to the worst player on the team are not the same things, and the "garbage time" comment is specifically what I addressed. You can die on that hill if you'd like, but you can find more instances of people believing Bagley can help this team--overpaid or not--as you can of people saying he should only play garbage time. You ignoring all that and playing the "I'm not going to explain myself" card isn't talking basketball; it's you being an ass. Stick to talking basketball, supporting your points, and refuting counterpoints. It plays a lot better here than the "You're just trying to give me a hard time" stuff.

I'd say its pretty safe to say that Bagley hasn't shown he can shoot the basketball.
66% FT Shooter last season
Nearly half his FGAs were inside 5 feet and he made 68.3% of those (which is good, he's good at scoring inside)
22% of his FGAs were in the 5-9 ft range, and he made 49% of those (ok)
31% of his FGAs were 10ft or more and he made 25% of those (really bad).

He's good inside 10 feet but really bad anywhere outside of 10 ft from the basket. Even 49% from the 5 - 9 ft range I would assume has to be slightly below average for centers in this league. As a rookie Beef Stew shot 49% from 5-9 ft range.

If you just look at centers from 5-9 feet last year tons of them shot above 49%. Including bad or non shooters like Drummond, Noel, Ayton(58.6%), Hartenstein(54.8%), McGee, Garza, etc.

So the only place he is really a good efficient scorer is within 5 feet of the basket, and a lot of his touches there is going to depend on our guards setting him up.... or his ability to take his man to the basket and get inside for the score.

I call "shooting" all shots, not just jumpers outside of 10 feet.

I'll go right back to what I said before...who said the plan is to turn Bagley into a "shooter," i.e. shooting a lot from outside, rather than trying to get him touches inside of 5 feet? Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how the points are scored. If I have a guy that shoots 68% from inside 5 feet, basketball logic dictates to me that you get that guy the ball inside of 5 feet...AND A LOT.

That's where the disconnect lies IMO. My guess is that Weaver/Casey's plan is to use Bagley primarily inside where his offensive strength is because from a basketball standpoint I think that's logical and I'll give credit to Weaver and Casey for being logical in the basketball sense. Others say "I want a stretch 4 and Bagley isn't a stretch 4, therefore he was a bad signing and should only play garbage minutes." And that's fine; you can certainly want the team to built a different way or run a different offense. But to imply that a player is worthless because he's not good at what you want him to be good at when the reality may be that the team's plan is to--er mer gerd--use him for what he IS good at, makes no sense.

That's where I was going with the Kanye West/Carlos Mencia "Come on, man...just get it" thing.

[A_dub06]

I did provide reasons why I think Bagley will be good for this team--he has the offensive skill set and size in the middle that this team lacks. I don't think he's a substitute for Livers and Bey; he scores in the post and they don't, period (I'm not even going to get into the idea that calling either Livers or Bey power forwards is a joke; they just get forced to play there due to lack of options)."Can't shoot at all"? He shoots 54.6% from 2 in his career and 50.1% overall; he just hasn't shot 3's well...on a whopping 2 attempts per game. In fact, when healthy he is without a doubt the best post scoring option this team has at the moment. And he's played all of 18 games with the Pistons so the evaluation that he'll never be able to play decent defense when he certainly has the athleticism to is premature at best, which I've said before. Not deserving a 3 year, $37.5 million contract and likening him to the worst player on the team are not the same things, and the "garbage time" comment is specifically what I addressed. You can die on that hill if you'd like, but you can find more instances of people believing Bagley can help this team--overpaid or not--as you can of people saying he should only play garbage time. You ignoring all that and playing the "I'm not going to explain myself" card isn't talking basketball; it's you being an ass. Stick to talking basketball, supporting your points, and refuting counterpoints. It plays a lot better here than the "You're just trying to give me a hard time" stuff.

I'd say its pretty safe to say that Bagley hasn't shown he can shoot the basketball.
66% FT Shooter last season
Nearly half his FGAs were inside 5 feet and he made 68.3% of those (which is good, he's good at scoring inside)
22% of his FGAs were in the 5-9 ft range, and he made 49% of those (ok)
31% of his FGAs were 10ft or more and he made 25% of those (really bad).

He's good inside 10 feet but really bad anywhere outside of 10 ft from the basket. Even 49% from the 5 - 9 ft range I would assume has to be slightly below average for centers in this league. As a rookie Beef Stew shot 49% from 5-9 ft range.

If you just look at centers from 5-9 feet last year tons of them shot above 49%. Including bad or non shooters like Drummond, Noel, Ayton(58.6%), Hartenstein(54.8%), McGee, Garza, etc.

So the only place he is really a good efficient scorer is within 5 feet of the basket, and a lot of his touches there is going to depend on our guards setting him up.... or his ability to take his man to the basket and get inside for the score.

I call "shooting" all shots, not just jumpers outside of 10 feet.

I'll go right back to what I said before...who said the plan is to turn Bagley into a "shooter," i.e. shooting a lot from outside, rather than trying to get him touches inside of 5 feet? Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how the points are scored. If I have a guy that shoots 68% from inside 5 feet, basketball logic dictates to me that you get that guy the ball inside of 5 feet...AND A LOT.

That's where the disconnect lies IMO. My guess is that Weaver/Casey's plan is to use Bagley primarily inside where his offensive strength is because from a basketball standpoint I think that's logical and I'll give credit to Weaver and Casey for being logical in the basketball sense. Others say "I want a stretch 4 and Bagley isn't a stretch 4, therefore he was a bad signing and should only play garbage minutes." And that's fine; you can certainly want the team to built a different way or run a different offense. But to imply that a player is worthless because he's not good at what you want him to be good at when the reality may be that the team's plan is to--er mer gerd--use him for what he IS good at, makes no sense.

That's where I was going with the Kanye West/Carlos Mencia "Come on, man...just get it" thing.

I didn’t only just say that Bagley can’t shoot, I also stated factually how he is one of the worst defenders in the league. Almost every writer/analyst outside of Detroit thought the Bagley side was bad. You say that he can improve his defence which is possible but show me an example of a player that’s been one of the worst defenders in the league for what 5 seasons now? And all of a sudden even become neutral on that end? I’ll wait.

If you have a player and his strength is basically scoring within 5 feet and is terrible defensively, do you really want to play him over a much younger, higher upside, more athletic and better defender player? No. Doesn’t mean Bagley gets no minted which as I’ve already said I’d be fine with, but he isn’t as deserving as Duren imo. Bagley scored last season yes and his stats weren’t terrible since coming over, and he’s young enough to improve but I just don’t see the point prioritising his development over someone like Duren.

[A_dub06]

This is reminiscent of Kanye West not getting the gay fish joke while Carlos Mencia says "Come on, man...just GET it."

When you say a player a pretty smart GM just signed to a 3 year, $37.5 million contract deserves nothing more than garbage time, you should provide reasoning or it absolutely comes off as "I know better than he does," i.e. a belief that Bagley is the worst (or near it) player on the entire roster. I've seen Bagley play and I believe he has the offensive skill and size this team needs on its bench; I don't have any problem discussing the subject or providing reasoning why I disagree with your assessment.

Throwing a fit and saying I should scroll by your posts because A) you don't want me responding to them, and B) you refuse to use the foe list, is simply being disruptive. And hypocritical to boot since you don't practice what you preach and simply scroll past my response.

Mate the proof is the pudding, go see the Bagley contract thread and there’s countless reasons why Bagley doesn’t deserve playing time. One of the worst in the league on defence, can’t shoot at all, can’t hide him at Centre and playing power forward only takes time away from guys like Bey and Livers. The emergence of Duren is just adding to that list, and there’s even more reasons which I really don’t feel like rehashing. If you don’t agree with that it’s fine it’s your opinion, but you’ll die on a hill with the idea that he does and just because a gm signed a player it doesn’t mean it’s the “right” choice nor does disagree with a gm signing mean you think you are smarter. Did Mozgov deserve that huge contract he signed?

Hardly throwing a fit but good on you to exaggerate what I’m saying. And it’s hypocritical of you to call me out for not providing reasons for why a player doesn’t deserve minutes when you yourself didn’t provide any for why he does. If you want to discuss actual basketball I’m more than keen for it but instead you make claims like I think I know better than a gm and things that don’t need to be said like a gm signing a player means that they like them and want to play them. That’s not talking basketball, just you being an ass.

I did provide reasons why I think Bagley will be good for this team--he has the offensive skill set and size in the middle that this team lacks. I don't think he's a substitute for Livers and Bey; he scores in the post and they don't, period (I'm not even going to get into the idea that calling either Livers or Bey power forwards is a joke; they just get forced to play there due to lack of options)."Can't shoot at all"? He shoots 54.6% from 2 in his career and 50.1% overall; he just hasn't shot 3's well...on a whopping 2 attempts per game. In fact, when healthy he is without a doubt the best post scoring option this team has at the moment. And he's played all of 18 games with the Pistons so the evaluation that he'll never be able to play decent defense when he certainly has the athleticism to is premature at best, which I've said before. Not deserving a 3 year, $37.5 million contract and likening him to the worst player on the team are not the same things, and the "garbage time" comment is specifically what I addressed. You can die on that hill if you'd like, but you can find more instances of people believing Bagley can help this team--overpaid or not--as you can of people saying he should only play garbage time. I think it's pretty easy to assume Weaver and Casey envision Bagley playing a role that's different from what you would expect him to play; that doesn't mean they're wrong. You ignoring all that and playing the "I'm not going to explain myself" card isn't talking basketball; it's you being an ass. Stick to talking basketball, supporting your points, and refuting counterpoints. It plays a lot better here than the "You're just trying to give me a hard time" stuff.

If you don’t have a centre that can shoot 3’s on offense having two bigs needing to score in the paint is a bad plan. You’re “not going to get into the idea of calling Livers or Bey power forwards” but you’ll consider Bagley as one? A big that can’t stretch the floor and plays terrible defence? Playing Bagley at centre or power forward is by lack options imo, as I’ve previously said the only way you can hide him is playing centre and with his scoring limited to the paint why play him over Duren? You get scoring at the rim, is a better lob threat and definitely plays better defence despite being so young and looking lost a lot of the time, hence the garbage time comment. The only people that agree with you on Bagley is some Detroit fans that are being homers or our own writers, everyone else sees Bagley for what he is. Does that mean it’s all he’ll ever be? No, I’ll admit to that but that I don’t think there’s much hope of him ever realising his potential. He may have only played 18 games with the pistons last season but his body of work prior to that counts, he is incredibly limited scoring wise and terrible on defence, both of those are facts.

Drummond was far more athletic and had far better tools at his disposal to become an elite defender, look what happened with him. Defence is instinctual and intelligence, and players as bad as Bagley cns get sloghtler better but usually they don’t materially improve.

[Manocad]

Mate the proof is the pudding, go see the Bagley contract thread and there’s countless reasons why Bagley doesn’t deserve playing time. One of the worst in the league on defence, can’t shoot at all, can’t hide him at Centre and playing power forward only takes time away from guys like Bey and Livers. The emergence of Duren is just adding to that list, and there’s even more reasons which I really don’t feel like rehashing. If you don’t agree with that it’s fine it’s your opinion, but you’ll die on a hill with the idea that he does and just because a gm signed a player it doesn’t mean it’s the “right” choice nor does disagree with a gm signing mean you think you are smarter. Did Mozgov deserve that huge contract he signed?

Hardly throwing a fit but good on you to exaggerate what I’m saying. And it’s hypocritical of you to call me out for not providing reasons for why a player doesn’t deserve minutes when you yourself didn’t provide any for why he does. If you want to discuss actual basketball I’m more than keen for it but instead you make claims like I think I know better than a gm and things that don’t need to be said like a gm signing a player means that they like them and want to play them. That’s not talking basketball, just you being an ass.

I did provide reasons why I think Bagley will be good for this team--he has the offensive skill set and size in the middle that this team lacks. I don't think he's a substitute for Livers and Bey; he scores in the post and they don't, period (I'm not even going to get into the idea that calling either Livers or Bey power forwards is a joke; they just get forced to play there due to lack of options)."Can't shoot at all"? He shoots 54.6% from 2 in his career and 50.1% overall; he just hasn't shot 3's well...on a whopping 2 attempts per game. In fact, when healthy he is without a doubt the best post scoring option this team has at the moment. And he's played all of 18 games with the Pistons so the evaluation that he'll never be able to play decent defense when he certainly has the athleticism to is premature at best, which I've said before. Not deserving a 3 year, $37.5 million contract and likening him to the worst player on the team are not the same things, and the "garbage time" comment is specifically what I addressed. You can die on that hill if you'd like, but you can find more instances of people believing Bagley can help this team--overpaid or not--as you can of people saying he should only play garbage time. I think it's pretty easy to assume Weaver and Casey envision Bagley playing a role that's different from what you would expect him to play; that doesn't mean they're wrong. You ignoring all that and playing the "I'm not going to explain myself" card isn't talking basketball; it's you being an ass. Stick to talking basketball, supporting your points, and refuting counterpoints. It plays a lot better here than the "You're just trying to give me a hard time" stuff.

If you don’t have a centre that can shoot 3’s on offense having two bigs needing to score in the paint is a bad plan. You’re “not going to get into the idea of calling Livers or Bey power forwards” but you’ll consider Bagley as one? A big that can’t stretch the floor and plays terrible defence? Playing Bagley at centre or power forward is by lack options imo, as I’ve previously said the only way you can hide him is playing centre and with his scoring limited to the paint why play him over Duren? You get scoring at the rim, is a better lob threat and definitely plays better defence despite being so young and looking lost a lot of the time, hence the garbage time comment. The only people that agree with you on Bagley is some Detroit fans that are being homers or our own writers, everyone else sees Bagley for what he is. Does that mean it’s all he’ll ever be? No, I’ll admit to that but that I don’t think there’s much hope of him ever realising his potential. He may have only played 18 games with the pistons last season but his body of work prior to that counts, he is incredibly limited scoring wise and terrible on defence, both of those are facts.

Drummond was far more athletic and had far better tools at his disposal to become an elite defender, look what happened with him. Defence is instinctual and intelligence, and players as bad as Bagley cns get sloghtler better but usually they don’t materially improve.

See? How hard was that?

What Drummond did or didn't do has no bearing in any way on what Bagley will or won't do. I personally don't think Bagley is limited to what he did playing in a different system in Sacramento as being all he can ever be. Thus I think jury is still out on how he'll perform here because it's been 18 games and none of us know exactly what Weaver/Casey's plan is for him in the future. Therefore I don't label signing him as a mistake or say that he'll only ever be worth garbage minutes, because I don't claim to have any plan that is better than an NBA GM/coach's plan. You do by stating that the offense must run X way to be successful, Bagley doesn't fit into an offense that runs X way and never will, and therefore signing him was a mistake, as is not running an offense X way. That's the difference in our perspectives; I don't claim to be able to see into the future and don't accept that anyone else can either.

[A_dub06]

I did provide reasons why I think Bagley will be good for this team--he has the offensive skill set and size in the middle that this team lacks. I don't think he's a substitute for Livers and Bey; he scores in the post and they don't, period (I'm not even going to get into the idea that calling either Livers or Bey power forwards is a joke; they just get forced to play there due to lack of options)."Can't shoot at all"? He shoots 54.6% from 2 in his career and 50.1% overall; he just hasn't shot 3's well...on a whopping 2 attempts per game. In fact, when healthy he is without a doubt the best post scoring option this team has at the moment. And he's played all of 18 games with the Pistons so the evaluation that he'll never be able to play decent defense when he certainly has the athleticism to is premature at best, which I've said before. Not deserving a 3 year, $37.5 million contract and likening him to the worst player on the team are not the same things, and the "garbage time" comment is specifically what I addressed. You can die on that hill if you'd like, but you can find more instances of people believing Bagley can help this team--overpaid or not--as you can of people saying he should only play garbage time. I think it's pretty easy to assume Weaver and Casey envision Bagley playing a role that's different from what you would expect him to play; that doesn't mean they're wrong. You ignoring all that and playing the "I'm not going to explain myself" card isn't talking basketball; it's you being an ass. Stick to talking basketball, supporting your points, and refuting counterpoints. It plays a lot better here than the "You're just trying to give me a hard time" stuff.

If you don’t have a centre that can shoot 3’s on offense having two bigs needing to score in the paint is a bad plan. You’re “not going to get into the idea of calling Livers or Bey power forwards” but you’ll consider Bagley as one? A big that can’t stretch the floor and plays terrible defence? Playing Bagley at centre or power forward is by lack options imo, as I’ve previously said the only way you can hide him is playing centre and with his scoring limited to the paint why play him over Duren? You get scoring at the rim, is a better lob threat and definitely plays better defence despite being so young and looking lost a lot of the time, hence the garbage time comment. The only people that agree with you on Bagley is some Detroit fans that are being homers or our own writers, everyone else sees Bagley for what he is. Does that mean it’s all he’ll ever be? No, I’ll admit to that but that I don’t think there’s much hope of him ever realising his potential. He may have only played 18 games with the pistons last season but his body of work prior to that counts, he is incredibly limited scoring wise and terrible on defence, both of those are facts.

Drummond was far more athletic and had far better tools at his disposal to become an elite defender, look what happened with him. Defence is instinctual and intelligence, and players as bad as Bagley cns get sloghtler better but usually they don’t materially improve.

See? How hard was that?

What Drummond did or didn't do has no bearing in any way on what Bagley will or won't do. I personally don't think Bagley is limited to what he did playing in a different system in Sacramento as being all he can ever be. Thus I think jury is still out on how he'll perform here because it's been 18 games and none of us know exactly what Weaver/Casey's plan is for him in the future. Therefore I don't label signing him as a mistake or say that he'll only ever be worth garbage minutes, because I don't claim to have any plan that is better than an NBA GM/coach's plan. You do by stating that the offense must run X way to be successful, Bagley doesn't fit into an offense that runs X way and never will, and therefore signing him was a mistake, as is not running an offense X way. That's the difference in our perspectives; I don't claim to be able to see into the future and don't accept that anyone else can either.

And in your own words, you claim to know better than every analyst/writer out there saying Bagley is worth that contract. Every young player has “potential” hypothetically but not many realise their ceiling and usually fall much lower than that. Im not claiming that I know better than everyone, but from what I see and looking at stats it’s not hard to come to the conclusion that everyone outside of Detroit has that Bagley didn’t deserve that number and should’ve got something barely half that. Look at what Jalen Smith got in Indiana, forget the fact Bagley was the 2nd pick by a notoriously stupid franchise and imo Smith shown much better glimpses and provides more of what this team needs than Bagley, and Indy signed him to what a $5-6m contract. We are paying Bagley $12.5m a year for 3 years without even a team option on the third! Forums discuss multiple topics that are based on the future, and as I’ve said before if you don’t want to that’s cool but we will, but saying you don’t have a crystal ball does nothing for discussion. You thought the Garza pick was solid when many of us called it out as a wasted pick due to terrible athleticism, look how that turned out. I’ll eat crow when my projections and assumptions are incorrect, I have no issue admitting when I’m wrong and that makes half the fun, projecting the future and seeing how far off you were when the dust settles.

We can agree to disagree on Bagley and if you think he’s going to pan out awesome. I draw the same conclusion on him that 98% of the professional basketball world does, and I will be calling you out when he fails. Same can be expected from you to me if he becomes the player you think he will.

[Manocad]

If you don’t have a centre that can shoot 3’s on offense having two bigs needing to score in the paint is a bad plan. You’re “not going to get into the idea of calling Livers or Bey power forwards” but you’ll consider Bagley as one? A big that can’t stretch the floor and plays terrible defence? Playing Bagley at centre or power forward is by lack options imo, as I’ve previously said the only way you can hide him is playing centre and with his scoring limited to the paint why play him over Duren? You get scoring at the rim, is a better lob threat and definitely plays better defence despite being so young and looking lost a lot of the time, hence the garbage time comment. The only people that agree with you on Bagley is some Detroit fans that are being homers or our own writers, everyone else sees Bagley for what he is. Does that mean it’s all he’ll ever be? No, I’ll admit to that but that I don’t think there’s much hope of him ever realising his potential. He may have only played 18 games with the pistons last season but his body of work prior to that counts, he is incredibly limited scoring wise and terrible on defence, both of those are facts.

Drummond was far more athletic and had far better tools at his disposal to become an elite defender, look what happened with him. Defence is instinctual and intelligence, and players as bad as Bagley cns get sloghtler better but usually they don’t materially improve.

See? How hard was that?

What Drummond did or didn't do has no bearing in any way on what Bagley will or won't do. I personally don't think Bagley is limited to what he did playing in a different system in Sacramento as being all he can ever be. Thus I think jury is still out on how he'll perform here because it's been 18 games and none of us know exactly what Weaver/Casey's plan is for him in the future. Therefore I don't label signing him as a mistake or say that he'll only ever be worth garbage minutes, because I don't claim to have any plan that is better than an NBA GM/coach's plan. You do by stating that the offense must run X way to be successful, Bagley doesn't fit into an offense that runs X way and never will, and therefore signing him was a mistake, as is not running an offense X way. That's the difference in our perspectives; I don't claim to be able to see into the future and don't accept that anyone else can either.

And in your own words, you claim to know better than every analyst/writer out there saying Bagley is worth that contract. Every young player has “potential” hypothetically but not many realise their ceiling and usually fall much lower than that. Im not claiming that I know better than everyone, but from what I see and looking at stats it’s not hard to come to the conclusion that everyone outside of Detroit has that Bagley didn’t deserve that number and should’ve got something barely half that. Look at what Jalen Smith got in Indiana, forget the fact Bagley was the 2nd pick by a notoriously stupid franchise and imo Smith shown much better glimpses and provides more of what this team needs than Bagley, and Indy signed him to what a $5-6m contract. We are paying Bagley $12.5m a year for 3 years without even a team option on the third! Forums discuss multiple topics that are based on the future, and as I’ve said before if you don’t want to that’s cool but we will, but saying you don’t have a crystal ball does nothing for discussion. You thought the Garza pick was solid when many of us called it out as a wasted pick due to terrible athleticism, look how that turned out. I’ll eat crow when my projections and assumptions are incorrect, I have no issue admitting when I’m wrong and that makes half the fun, projecting the future and seeing how far off you were when the dust settles.

We can agree to disagree on Bagley and if you think he’s going to pan out awesome. I draw the same conclusion on him that 98% of the professional basketball world does, and I will be calling you out when he fails. Same can be expected from you to me if he becomes the player you think he will.

Ah, the hyperbole again. I never claimed to know any more than anyone and I never said that Bagley will be awesome, because I don't claim to be able to see into the future and don't accept that you can either. In simple paraphrase, I said it's too soon to make a determination.

And the only thing I ever said about Garza was that he wasn't being used according to his strengths. Which means he didn't work out here, he's gone, that's the end of it, and I've never mentioned a word about him since.

[A_dub06]

See? How hard was that?

What Drummond did or didn't do has no bearing in any way on what Bagley will or won't do. I personally don't think Bagley is limited to what he did playing in a different system in Sacramento as being all he can ever be. Thus I think jury is still out on how he'll perform here because it's been 18 games and none of us know exactly what Weaver/Casey's plan is for him in the future. Therefore I don't label signing him as a mistake or say that he'll only ever be worth garbage minutes, because I don't claim to have any plan that is better than an NBA GM/coach's plan. You do by stating that the offense must run X way to be successful, Bagley doesn't fit into an offense that runs X way and never will, and therefore signing him was a mistake, as is not running an offense X way. That's the difference in our perspectives; I don't claim to be able to see into the future and don't accept that anyone else can either.

And in your own words, you claim to know better than every analyst/writer out there saying Bagley is worth that contract. Every young player has “potential” hypothetically but not many realise their ceiling and usually fall much lower than that. Im not claiming that I know better than everyone, but from what I see and looking at stats it’s not hard to come to the conclusion that everyone outside of Detroit has that Bagley didn’t deserve that number and should’ve got something barely half that. Look at what Jalen Smith got in Indiana, forget the fact Bagley was the 2nd pick by a notoriously stupid franchise and imo Smith shown much better glimpses and provides more of what this team needs than Bagley, and Indy signed him to what a $5-6m contract. We are paying Bagley $12.5m a year for 3 years without even a team option on the third! Forums discuss multiple topics that are based on the future, and as I’ve said before if you don’t want to that’s cool but we will, but saying you don’t have a crystal ball does nothing for discussion. You thought the Garza pick was solid when many of us called it out as a wasted pick due to terrible athleticism, look how that turned out. I’ll eat crow when my projections and assumptions are incorrect, I have no issue admitting when I’m wrong and that makes half the fun, projecting the future and seeing how far off you were when the dust settles.

We can agree to disagree on Bagley and if you think he’s going to pan out awesome. I draw the same conclusion on him that 98% of the professional basketball world does, and I will be calling you out when he fails. Same can be expected from you to me if he becomes the player you think he will.

Ah, the hyperbole again. I never claimed to know any more than anyone and I never said that Bagley will be awesome, because I don't claim to be able to see into the future and don't accept that you can either. In simple paraphrase, I said it's too soon to make a determination.

And the only thing I ever said about Garza was that he wasn't being used according to his strengths. Which means he didn't work out here, he's gone, that's the end of it, and I've never mentioned a word about him since.

So to summarise in your opinion nobody is allowed to post on message boards their thoughts on a player and how they project because nobody knows what will happen. Man you are such a hypocrite, you tell others to stop shadow moderating and that’s exactly what you do. By your own logic, I can’t prove that I’m right you can’t prove that I’m wrong, and going further there’s a mountain of evidence to show what Bagley is and certainly isn’t right now.

You’re either a coward or completely unimaginative, you won’t post what you think but you’ll tell others they are wrong just because it’s predicting/projecting. Yep cool, I’m done going back and fourth with you on this. You’re an ass, and when there’s multiple other posters calling you an ass maybe at some point you should consider that maybe, just maybe you are being an ass.

But hey, you do you boo

[Manocad]

And in your own words, you claim to know better than every analyst/writer out there saying Bagley is worth that contract. Every young player has “potential” hypothetically but not many realise their ceiling and usually fall much lower than that. Im not claiming that I know better than everyone, but from what I see and looking at stats it’s not hard to come to the conclusion that everyone outside of Detroit has that Bagley didn’t deserve that number and should’ve got something barely half that. Look at what Jalen Smith got in Indiana, forget the fact Bagley was the 2nd pick by a notoriously stupid franchise and imo Smith shown much better glimpses and provides more of what this team needs than Bagley, and Indy signed him to what a $5-6m contract. We are paying Bagley $12.5m a year for 3 years without even a team option on the third! Forums discuss multiple topics that are based on the future, and as I’ve said before if you don’t want to that’s cool but we will, but saying you don’t have a crystal ball does nothing for discussion. You thought the Garza pick was solid when many of us called it out as a wasted pick due to terrible athleticism, look how that turned out. I’ll eat crow when my projections and assumptions are incorrect, I have no issue admitting when I’m wrong and that makes half the fun, projecting the future and seeing how far off you were when the dust settles.

We can agree to disagree on Bagley and if you think he’s going to pan out awesome. I draw the same conclusion on him that 98% of the professional basketball world does, and I will be calling you out when he fails. Same can be expected from you to me if he becomes the player you think he will.

Ah, the hyperbole again. I never claimed to know any more than anyone and I never said that Bagley will be awesome, because I don't claim to be able to see into the future and don't accept that you can either. In simple paraphrase, I said it's too soon to make a determination.

And the only thing I ever said about Garza was that he wasn't being used according to his strengths. Which means he didn't work out here, he's gone, that's the end of it, and I've never mentioned a word about him since.

So to summarise in your opinion nobody is allowed to post on message boards their thoughts on a player and how they project because nobody knows what will happen. Man you are such a hypocrite, you tell others to stop shadow moderating and that’s exactly what you do. By your own logic, I can’t prove that I’m right you can’t prove that I’m wrong, and going further there’s a mountain of evidence to show what Bagley is and certainly isn’t right now.

You’re either a coward or completely unimaginative, you won’t post what you think but you’ll tell others they are wrong just because it’s predicting/projecting. Yep cool, I’m done going back and fourth with you on this. You’re an ass, and when there’s multiple other posters calling you an ass maybe at some point you should consider that maybe, just maybe you are being an ass.

But hey, you do you boo

Man, you and the hyperbole. I never said anything about anyone not being allowed to post; that's YOUR game. I simply said I won't agree with any assessment that basically says "This was a mistake" before the results are in. There is NOTHING in that verbiage that says "You can't post that something is a mistake before the results are in." I just won't agree with it. I clearly posted what I thought about Bagley and why I think it's too soon to call his signing a mistake or determine that he's only worth garbage minutes. If that's a problem for you, so be it.

[Piston Pete]

We didn’t come in intending to tank. But if we look the way we’ve been looking you could see that become the approach before too long.

Of course, with a young team there’s also the possibility we get better as the season goes on.

Too bad we can’t get better than a 25 percent chance at Victor, right?

Well, we can.

Just need to convince another lottery team to give us their pick.