Deni Avdija

[Dolevi]

I don't even understand what people are complaining about.

Avdija starts alongside our 3 highest usage players (Porzingis, Beal and Kuzma) and our highest usage point guard. All of them except Porzingis are actually playing very well offensively (and Zinger hasn't been that bad either). It would be stupid for him to seek out more difficult shots, taking them from other successful offensive players.

Avdija is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing. He is a glue guy and defensive ace. It's working very well. He has the best on/off differential on the roster, and when he plays with the other 4 starters, they have a +29.4 on/off differential.

I'm happy with what Avdija is doing. He is 2nd on the team in WS/48 and RAPTOR, and 4th in BPM.
I'm happy with what the starting lineup is doing. They are 3-1 and have a dominant point differential
I'm happy that Wes Jr. recognizes the usefulness of Deni's size, defense and playmaking rather than playing a superfluous "shot maker" like Hachimura or Barton alongside the other starters.

It's just good all around. About the only thing of concern is Deni's foul rate limiting his minutes.

I'm with nate here.

Whatever the coaches are doing with respect to Deni, it is working. It is not hurting the team at all, and Deni should be commended for cementing his status in the starting line-up. Especially given that Deni missed training camp, and due to his NT obligations he wasn't working out with teammates over the summer the way others were. The coaching staff has found a role for him that benefits the team. If he doesn't yet have the confidence to hit his shots, I mean, okay, but it is not like he is going to get yanked for making a mistake. And frankly he doesn't make many.

I agree with the premise that as he makes shots, his usage will increase. And with our back-up PG/2nd best defender out for 2 months, Deni will surely see more minutes since he has both skillsets: playmaking and defense. I agree with the premise that the more responsibility and usage he has, the more opportunity he has to improve.

I disagree with the idea that he is somehow hurting our offense. If you check his on/off numbers, we are 40 points better per 100 possessions when Deni is on the floor. Our shooting is +11%, we turn the ball over 11% less often, we get 15% more assists.

What people miss on both sides of the argument is that Deni is playmaking with action off the ball as well. He screens well. He boxes out players on passes as well as rebounding to prevent steals. He's the relay man who skips the ball to make the hockey assist. It may look like he is passive when he kicks the ball to the next guy, but more often than not that is the right play. It is the play that sets up the play.

Effectively Deni is playing soccer out there, at both ends, playing the spaces and angles between teammates and opponents to set up the right play. He's playing as a midfielder. We are arguing if he should play more like a central midfielder or an attacking forward, and missing the fact that as a defensive midfielder he is remarkably skilled.

In this respect it doesn't matter if he can dribble left, or finish in the paint. He can make it easier for the guy who can. He turns defense into offense. That is a key role that usually only veteran players understand. Which Deni is. He has 2 years under his belt in the NBA but has been playing as a pro since he was 16. It is the exact opposite of what Rui is doing, which only helps your team look good while losing.

Deni's game is not being stunted here. He benefits by playing with the starters, against the best opponents, and having success doing so. As that chemistry develops he will surely develop confidence and hit shots at this level as well. It is 4 freaking games and he just got off injury. Missed the coaches inputting the system, and is still managing to shine. Israel needs to relax. He is progressing well. Understood if you see the starring role he had with the NT or in the Israeli league and think he should be able to star instantly here as well. This is his first year starting. Give him a minute. If he is as good as you hope he will become, he will assert himself and take that role. In this league he is starting with a role as a defensive midfielder, if he can work his way up to central midfielder, excellent, he just hasn't yet seized that role.

Do you think Deni will earn more respect from Beal, KP, Kuz and Rui if he won't pass them and go directly to the basket?

If he scores, then yes. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand the mentality of the NBA and American basketball in general. I think Deni does, he just doesn't have his feet under him yet. When he stepped on a pro court in Israel he was said to be cocky as hell and went right at the older players. Nobody had to baby him and create a special role for him. He earned his minutes from play. Here he doesn't yet have the same confidence, he doesn't have the talent mismatch that he does overseas. As he matures in the league I get the sense that he develop it. It's not like they are going to take him off the floor, he is going to earn minutes.

I'm all for Deni playing those additional minutes, in an expanded role. I'd just counsel patience for all of Israel. If he stays healthy, those minutes will show up. If he grows as he has been doing, his role will grow as well. Its fans like this who are adding pressure on him. He doesn't have to become a superhero to be a good player.

Great comment.

[Dolevi]

If i can clearly see that the coach sucks, which has been the case here several times, then i will definitely second guess some of his decisions. But if i think a coach is actually competent i will give him the benefit of the doubt. I see no reason to second guess the way they are handling Deni.

And these same coaches gave Deni more touches as a playmaker yesterday like I requested, the same coaches you said have no reason to give him more touches and responsibilities, remember? I guess you know something they don't know about coaching, also we saw Deni being (too) aggressive, another thing you said he doesn't do, both things did not work well, but that's how development process looks like at its early stages.

How did that playmaking role work out? Not so great. No assists, 2 turnovers and a big early deficit.

I like seeing him more aggressive, but when you try to finish against a shot blocker it isn't a good idea to put the ball right in front of them. Gooden was saying he needs to put up a shot fake. Or maybe Mr playmaker could have passed out to an open shooter.

His lack of experience showed. He attacks the basket so rarely that he didn't know what to do. At least he tried. Gotta start somewhere. I'd rather see that than his usual passive routine.

Indeed, agree with you hasn't shown yesterday he's ready.

[Wizraeli]

How did that playmaking role work out? Not so great. No assists, 2 turnovers and a big early deficit.

both things did not work well, but that's how development process looks like at its early stages.

As usual you don't really read what I'm writing.

How it worked out is not the point, just like how much he scored or his percentages at the last 2 years wasn't the point, you said he's not aggressive, you were wrong, you said the coaches aren't going to change things like using him more as a playmaker in order to try and help him to be more involved, you were wrong, if you're going to drag me on an argument over 4 pages and you are wrong then I'm going to call you out on it, but I'm not surprised you still won't admit it..some people are like that.

[Wizraeli]

Indeed, agree with you hasn't shown yesterday he's ready.

It will take time, but a development process needs to start from somewhere, if they won't even try to get him more involved then how would he ever improve in that area?

[tontoz]

How did that playmaking role work out? Not so great. No assists, 2 turnovers and a big early deficit.

both things did not work well, but that's how development process looks like at its early stages.

As usual you don't really read what I'm writing.

How it worked out is not the point, just like how much he scored or his percentages at the last 2 years wasn't the point, you said he's not aggressive, you were wrong, you said the coaches aren't going to change things like using him more as a playmaker in order to try and help him to be more involved, you were wrong, if you're going to drag me on an argument over 4 pages and you are wrong then I'm going to call you out on it, but I'm not surprised you still won't admit it..some people are like that.

We both said basically the same thing.

Putting him in a primary playmaker isn't going to work. He isn't used to making decisions on a limited level so how can he be expected to be the primary decision maker?

Step 1 is to try to be more aggressive when he gets the ball. If he doesn't try to do anything with the ball then he isn't going to learn how to be a scorer or a playmaker.

Let's see him show progress in his role before we put him in a primary playmaker role. Those attempts to finish against turner were pretty bad. It seemed like he wasn't even aware that Turner is a shot blocker.

I would rather see him making mistakes than playing passive. His bbiq is high on defense so I think he can learn to be effective on offense.

[Wizraeli]

You wrote twice the phrase "primary playmaker", please give me a quote of where I ever said he needs to be the primary playmaker? I've said a number of times that all I ask is that they utilize him more as a playmaker, more, not primary, not secondary, just more, how from that you got to "primary playmaker"?

[tontoz]

You wrote twice the phrase "primary playmaker", please give me a quote of where I ever said he needs to be the primary playmaker? I've said a number of times that all I ask is that they utilize him more as a playmaker, more, not primary, not secondary, just more, how from that you got to "primary playmaker"?

They had him bringing the ball up the court in a pg role initiating the offense. Did you not notice that?

I suspect they did it primarily to get him more engaged in the offense but they pulled the plug quickly.

[Dolevi]

Indeed, agree with you hasn't shown yesterday he's ready.

It will take time, but a development process needs to start from somewhere, if they won't even try to get him more involved then how would he ever improve in that area?

It does need to start, but from playing with the 2nd unit as a Backup PG for some possessions. Not with the opening line-up unfortunately. Even there he needs to prove he's capable of doing that. Yesterday we've seen he's not ready yet and by that I'm judging. I do agree as I said before that this is where his potential is, and this is where Washington needs to focus at with all what connects to his development, but right now he's struggling with handling the ball and ball security in general. But, it demands time and repetitions. The more he will do that as the season will progress, the better he becomes and the less he'll TO the ball.

[Dolevi]

You wrote twice the phrase "primary playmaker", please give me a quote of where I ever said he needs to be the primary playmaker? I've said a number of times that all I ask is that they utilize him more as a playmaker, more, not primary, not secondary, just more, how from that you got to "primary playmaker"?

They had him bringing the ball up the court in a pg role initiating the offense. Did you not notice that?

I suspect they did it primarily to get him more engaged in the offense but they pulled the plug quickly.

Looks like they read here in this topic

[Wizraeli]

They had him bringing the ball up the court in a pg role initiating the offense. Did you not notice that?

What they did is irrelevant, tell me where did I asked for him to be the primary playmaker? I asked for and you argued against utilizing him more as a playmaker in general, not primary, nobody talked about using him as a primary PG yesterday, so why are you bringing it up? I asked for them to utilize him more as a playmaker, that's all, actually I even just asked to get him more involved in the ball movement because it might give him more confidence, the coaching staff have shown signs that they think the same as I do, but you can't admit you were wrong, do you? how it worked is less important, even if it would have worked great, one game doesn't mean a lot either way.

[tontoz]

They had him bringing the ball up the court in a pg role initiating the offense. Did you not notice that?

What they did is irrelevant, tell me where did I asked for him to be the primary playmaker? I asked for and you argued against utilizing him more as a playmaker in general, not primary, nobody talked about using him as a primary PG yesterday, so why are you bringing it up? I asked for them to utilize him more as a playmaker, that's all, actually I even just asked to get him more involved in the ball movement because it might give him more confidence, the coaching staff have shown signs that they think the same as I do, but you can't admit you were wrong, do you? how it worked is less important, even if it would have worked great, one game doesn't mean a lot either way.

I was just commenting on the actual game. I think the games are pretty relevant.

But let's talk about playmaking in general. Don't you think good court awareness is necessary to be an effective playmaker? Do you think trying consecutive layups in the face of an elite shot blocker shows good court awareness? There was nothing stopping him from putting up a shot fake, or protecting the ball, or kicking it back out.

Another aspect of playmaking is aggressiveness. You aren't going to create opportunities for yourself or others by being passive . I have been lamenting his lack of aggressiveness for the last two years.

I liked his aggressiveness last night even though it went badly.

As for the coaches I think they are trying to get Deni to be more aggressive on offense but haven't been successful.

[Wizraeli]

I think the games are pretty relevant.

Games are relevant, plural, one game isn't relevant to anything in the long term, the coaching staff tried to get him more involved this game, let's hope they will continue to do that, summarization and conclusions should be made in the end of the season, not in the beginning.

But let's talk about playmaking in general.

Let's talk about you being wrong on both of your claims instead of changing the subject, he is aggressive this season and it is the coaching staff's job and interest to help him be more involved on the offense, you argued otherwise, but you're not going to admit it even if your life will depend on it, do you? you're just going to change the subject again and again, I don't understand people like you that can't admit a mistake, but fine, whatever.

Don't you think good court awareness is necessary to be an effective playmaker? Do you think trying consecutive layups in the face of an elite shot blocker shows good court awareness? There was nothing stopping him from putting up a shot fake, or protecting the ball, or kicking it back out.

Rome wasn't built in a day, things takes time, the more he'll play in a certain role, the more he'll get better at it, you say he should have made a shot fake or to kick the ball out, but if he would have done that and it would have gone wrong you would have said he hesitated and wasn't aggressive and should have just tried to make the basket...maybe it didn't worked that game, but he'll learn what's working and what doesn't only by trying, not by standing in the corner without really touching the ball and without really being part of the offense, and the responsibility to make sure he's part of the offense is on both Deni and the coaching staff, not just Deni and not just the coaches, it's on both of them.

[tontoz]

What exactly have I been wrong about? Deni has been a low volume low efficiency scorer since he's been here. That isn't an opinion, its a fact. It doesn't matter who is in the game with him it's the same story, including your 16 game stretch where he averaged a whopping 12.6 ppg.



As a playmaker he averaged 2 assists per game last year. That isn't much but I will admit it's better than what he's shown as a scorer.

Some players come into the league with good court awareness or they develop it quickly. Deni is an example of this on defense. He just seems to know the right thing to do consistently. On offense, not so much.

[prime1time]

Avdija in his current form is not good enough to be a primary playmaker. And because we aren't trying to tank, we do not want to give him opportunities to learn on the job. The suggestion that we should just give him opportunities that he hasn't earned really doesn't make sense. His best course of action is unchanged. Develop his 3-point shot (I'm very happy to see that he's shooting 36.4% so far) and make the most of the opportunities as they arise. I remember a distinctive play on Friday when he just lost the ball dribbling on the perimeter. As a young player that doesn't get many opportunities, you really need to make the most out of the ones that you get.

I also think that the focus/obsession with playmaking is very misguided. There's only one ball. And on championship teams, only the best players will have it. The Doncic's, Tatum's, Morant's and Giannis'. We don't know what Avdija's ultimate ability is, but what we do know is that he is not and will likely never be on their level. Avdija needs to learn how to impact the game without needing the ball. Last game he had some great cuts (but he tried to finish soft at the rim and got swatted). Realistically speaking, this is the only path forward for him.

A team would have to be tanking to just let Avdija create on the perimeter. But they would be tanking in order to find someone to actually playmake. If Avdija is interested in playmaking in the NBA, even more important than working on his own skills he should try to end up on a team with a guy like Steph Curry. I.E. a superstar that doesn't need the ball in his hands. At the same time, there's only one Steph Curry. For everyone else genuinely interested in winning, your job is to figure out how your game can complement ball-dominant stars.

[Wizraeli]

As a playmaker he averaged 2 assists per game last year. That isn't much but I will admit it's better than what he's shown as a scorer.

He hasn't played as a playmaker, even at the end of last season, so I don't know what you're talking about, Satoranský and if I remember correctly Smith or Neto were the point guards.

What exactly have I been wrong about?

How many times have I wrote it already? 10? let's give it another try, you argued he's still isn't aggressive this season, you were wrong, you argued it's not the coaching staff responsibility to get him more involved on offense, you were wrong since evidently they tried to do just that, the argument was about these 2 subjects, nothing else, you just keep changing the subject to his efficiency or scoring ability because you can't admit a mistake, answer these 2 claims that I argued about, don't change the subject to his scoring ability or efficiency, I never argued about those, I only argued about what is needed to be done in order to improve his scoring ability, it's just fascinating how your ego doesn't allow you to admit a mistake, I seriously find it intriguing.

1. Is he more aggressive this season? yes or no.
2. Did the coaching staff made a change in the offense in order to get him more involved? yes or no?

Stop dancing around these 2 claims.

[tontoz]

This season ..... Is only 5 games old lmao. I would say he was more aggressive than usual last game. Overall, not really.

Per 36 minutes relative to his rookie season he is averaging .5 more shots, .5 more assists, .3 more foul shot attempts. All 3 metrics are down from last season.

The coaches are trying first and foremost to win games. If they don't win they get fired. I am sure they want Deni to do more on offense but he has to actually be willing to do more. It remains to be seen if he is actually will to step forward and play more aggressive on a consistent basis.

[Wizraeli]

This season, yes, we can talk all we want about the past but what's important is how he's playing now...

If it will be done gradually and in small bursts there's no reason that letting Deni more time as a playmaker will cause the team to loose games (and I hope you're not blaming him on the loss to the Pacers).

[dckingsfan]

I am not sure the debate right now. Deni's defense has been really good. Deni's offense has been about the same as last year in terms of his playmaking (maybe a bit worse in a small sample size).

If we want to see Deni's usage go way up on the first unit - then we have to wait until the games become meaningless. I don't think anyone should expect that Wes wouldn't try to win as many games as possible in order to keep his job.

What is interesting is that in their wins he has played really well. In their losses, not so much.

Either way, Deni is in the starting lineup and seems to be pleased with his role.

[Pistol King]

A good conversation guys. Love it.

My two cents.

I've been watching Deni through his EuroBasket games this summer, and I've seen an aggressive player who wants to put the team on his shoulders, to a point where in one position he almost had an incident with his PG teammate who in the last money time possession has dribbled and dribbled and took the last shot instead of passing it to him. Deni was on fire and wanted to take that game on his shoulders. He was so angry about that teammate who didn't give him the ball for the last shot. This is who I believe the real Deni is. an aggressive player who wants to win probably more than anybody if getting the chance.

What I'm trying to say is, I've never seen this version of him yet in a Wizards uniform, and it's not because he doesn't have it on him. Actually he averaged pretty good numbers in this FIBA tournament where usually NBA stars averaging lower numbers than they averaging in the NBA.

the feeling I get is the coach asks him to only do the basics. When Deni tries to do a little bit more (like creating off the dribble or playmaking) the coach doesn't rewards him in a positive way. We also seeing it through WUJ's interviews, he always compliments Deni with statements like 'I liked that he didn't try to do much and let the game come to him'.

So to summarize, I think the lack of aggressiveness we're seeing from Deni is a combination of very short room to showcase it, when every possession is kinda make or break, combining with a negative rewarding from the coach when he's trying to do more than standing at the corner. In the long run I think the organization makes a mistake by not put emphasis on trying to win while also at the same time developing its 9'th pick. I don't believe in this 'everything or anything' approach. Who says being invested 'all in' in Kuz bricking as much shots as he wants is the right way to win?

So the fault here is on both sides. Deni should do more in the small room of chances he got to show what he's capable of offensively, and the org should do better by letting him be a more regular part of the offensive scheme (ball touching, playmaking, allowing him to create off the dribble at least 2-3 times per game without to kick him out to the bench if it doesn't immediately works out). I'd like to see WUJ rewarding him for the defense job he gives and not using him only so the other players can do whatever they want while Deni is cleaning each one's mistakes. The game against the Pacers was a good example for it. Deni did a good job defensively on Haliburton when forcing him often to pass the ball or missing shots, only so the other guys would fall a sleep on the defensive end and Deni will be the one to be punished for it (aka we don't play good defense as a team? I'll bench Deni and bring up the players I trust offensively, even if Deni himself did play defense). WUJ rewards players for bad plays and then we're asking ourselves why things don't pan out.

[payitforward]

I am not sure the debate right now. Deni's defense has been really good. Deni's offense has been about the same as last year in terms of his playmaking (maybe a bit worse in a small sample size).

If we want to see Deni's usage go way up on the first unit - then we have to wait until the games become meaningless. I don't think anyone should expect that Wes wouldn't try to win as many games as possible in order to keep his job.

What is interesting is that in their wins he has played really well. In their losses, not so much.

Either way, Deni is in the starting lineup and seems to be pleased with his role.

Well done! This is the first sensible post in this thread for days!

Deni doesn't have to be a high-usage scorer to be a good player. But it's self-evident that, all other things being equal, the better he scores the better a player he becomes. The better a playmaker he is... ditto.

&, asking whether he has improved this year is ridiculous. He's played 92 minutes! Let's look at the question again when he's played 250 minutes, ok?