thebigbird wrote:Stalwart wrote:thebigbird wrote:The depths people will go to in their efforts to diminish LeBron’s accomplishments…
The results are what they are. If we start nitpicking, then we can also talk about how during LeBron’s career there has been a lockout-shortened season and two covid-shortened seasons. All three reduced the number of games he could play. And they involve far fewer what-ifs than literally adding 4 entire seasons worth of points onto Kareem’s total lmao.
I was just making the point that Kareem's mileage would have been fine had ge came in straight from high school. I get that NBA seasons are longer than a NCAA season. I still think he would be fine.
Its you guys going on and on about Lebron.
It’s a LeBron thread lol. And it’s clear what the agenda behind the discussion is. Kareem played 20 seasons as it is. No one in NBA history has ever played 24 seasons. An NBA season is 82 games. Kareem played 88 games in his college career. He was a 22 year old rookie. 21 year old LeBron, 3rd season LeBron, played 92 games, averaging 43.1 mpg. LeBron played more that season than Kareem did in his entire time at UCLA. The NBA is not at all comparable to a college workload.
Kareem’s entire career changes if he comes out of high school. It’s not even a guarantee that he surpasses what he actually scored.
Plus this discussion is so stupid because it assumes that Kareem gets every enormous advantage he actually got in his career compared to Lebron AND the advantages Lebron had on top of it. I made this post a few months back:
oldskool wrote:You seem to be arguing that Lebron is a more prolific scorer than Kareem. My assertion has nothing to do with that.
My assertion, made in response to posts made earlier by others, is that holding the career points scored record does not equate to being the GOAT because of differences in NBA rules, policies and practices over decades. I listed seven specific ways in which changes to NBA rules, policies and practices have made it easier for Lebron to amass points, compared to Kareem. That does not denigrate Lebron's accomplishments. He will legitimately own the record. But that record is more of a milestone than a measuring stick, given the changes to NBA rules, policies and practices over time. You said that the NBA rule change on the age of player eligibility "didn't hold much weight" (even though Lebron scored 20% of his career points at an age when NBA rules prevented Kareem from playing) and then meandered into points that have nothing to do with the eligibility rule. I note that you have not stated any disagreement with the facts I laid out regarding changes to NBA rules, policies and practices.
This ignores the numerous advantages Kareem had over Lebron. Despite the narrative of the pace exploding the last few years, Lebron's entire career was spent in a league playing at a pace dramatically slower than Kareem did, which greatly inflated Kareem's PPG average and outweighs, by far, every supposed advantage Lebron has aside from coming into the league 3.5 years younger than Kareem did. Kareem also played in an era where players had to cover far less ground than they do now so he could play more minutes than you would ever see in today's league. Look at their team's pace each year of their career (possessions per game):
1970: 115.8
2004: 90.8
1971: 113.4
2005: 89.7
1972: 111.2
2006: 89.8
1973: 108.3
2007: 90.8
1974: 105.4
2008: 90.2
1975: 102.1
2009: 88.7
1976: 108.0
2010: 91.4
1977: 104.7
2011: 90.9
1978: 106.1
2012: 91.2
1979: 105.9
2013: 90.7
1980: 104.1
2014: 91.2
1981: 102.7
2015: 92.3
1982: 103.1
2016: 93.3
1983: 103.8
2017: 96.2
1984: 103.7
2018: 98.0
1985: 103.2
2019: 103.2
1986: 102.7
2020: 100.9
1987: 101.6
2021: 98.7
1988: 99.1
2022: 100.1
1989: 100.1
Avg: 105.3 Avg: 93.4
Let's do some dirty, back of the envelope math. Kareem's career was played at a pace 1.1274 times faster than Lebron, and if we multiply Lebron's career point total by that number, it comes out to 41,784 points. On the other hand, if we normalize Kareem's point total to Lebron's career pace (.887 times as fast as Kareem's career pace) it comes out to 34,050 points. Despite this massive disadvantage, Lebron is still in all likelihood going to obliterate Kareem's record and finish well north of 40,000 career points.
And if anything, this understates the advantage Kareem had. The slowest years of Kareem's career came at the end when he was putting up the lowest points per possession of his career, and the fastest years came during his prime during an extremely watered down era when half the country's basketball talent was playing in a different league. On the other hand, the fastest paced seasons Lebron played were when he was older and was missing a lot of time from injury. Lebron is also the greatest transition scorer in league history and would thrive in an environment as fast as the 70s to an even greater extent than the adjusted career totals indicate.
Some of your other points don't make any sense either. Addressing them:
2. Lebron plays in an NBA of rosters littered with kids. Jabbar and Chamberlain faced men every night.
This is nonsensical. Most guys under 22 aren't getting many minutes, unless they're either a. already good players or b. on bottom of the barrel lottery teams. I'd say Kareem playing 8 years of his career during a time when half the talent was in the ABA, when the sport was almost entirely domestic and the talent pool much smaller, and during a time when basketball training/skills was extremely primitive compared to now outweighs, by multiple orders of magnitude, Lebron occasionally playing against "kids" who aren't ready (as if Kareem didn't already play against plenty of players who would never dream of sniffing the NBA even during his own era had pro basketball talent not been split in half, let alone during Lebron's era).
3. Lebron plays in an era of load management. He only played in 80 games 3 times in his career. Jabbar, Chamberlain and Malone played 80 games more often than not, a combined total of 37 times between them. No rest and recovery days in their era.
Again, utterly nonsensical for several reasons, and actually hurts your argument. It wasn't until Miami that Lebron got load managed at all, and even then it was only ever an occasional back to back. And most importantly, load managing and missing games is BAD for padding your career point totals! This is just an old man yelling at clouds point you added without regard for how it might affect your overall argument.
And yes, guys load manage now partly because it's a competitive advantage to keep your players fresh for the playoffs, and partly because the game is far more physically intensive than it was during Kareem's era. There is no comparison between the amount of ground guys have to cover now, having to rotate quickly around the perimeter and down to the rim, while during Kareem's era centers largely just jogged from box to box, rarely moving more than 10-15 feet from the rim on either end. This is why Kareem was able to play so many more minutes earlier in his career than anybody could play now (and even if they could, no coach would let them).
And finally, Lebron only really started missing games the last few seasons. During his first 15 years he only missed 71 possible games or 4.7 per season, compared to Kareem's first 15 seasons missing 60 possible games or 4 games per season. It's a trivial difference. More significant is Lebron missing out on a chance to play in 37 possible regular season games because of the 66 game 2012 lockout season, and the shortened COVID seasons in 2020 and 2021.
4. Lebron plays in an era of the softest scheduling in NBA history. Minimal back-to-backs. Never 4 or 5 games in a row. Minimal exhibition games.
Lebron's career spans 19 years and multiple NBA eras; the league he came into resembled the 90s far more than it resembles today's league. It wasn't until around 2013 that the league really started to take scheduling seriously, he played plenty of 4 in 5s during the first two thirds of his career. So this is just incorrect.
5. Lebron plays in the 3-point era. 3-point baskets account for 17% of his career points, an opportunity not available to many players.
Mostly irrelevant, because in no era was Kareem or Wilt ever going to be a 3 point shooter. Aside from that, it doesn't make Kareem's case look better to point out that he played his 1980-1989 career in an era where strategy was too dumb and primitive, and players too unskilled, to play basketball the most effective way by using the 3 point line.
6. Lebron travels by charter flights, while Jabbar and Chamberlain had to deal with trains and commercial flights.
This is true, but I would also point out that Kareem was way ahead of his time in terms of training so he wouldn't gain nearly as much of an advantage as most guys would by playing in today's era.
7. Lebron plays in an era when he can dictate his team and teammates to a great degree, assuring that he is almost always on a top team.
Again, this point goes against you. If your goal is to score as many points as possible, playing on good teams is bad. Second, Kareem played the second half of his career in an incredibly fortunate situation on a stacked Laker team that drafted another top 10 player of all time as a 20 year old, which is far more fortunate than any situation Lebron's been apart of.
