Warriors have 2 Achilles' Heels: Klay & Wiseman

[Impuniti]

seems like an overreaction to me and not worthy of a thread. Klay just helped us win a title and was playing great defense by the end of the finals. He didn't play ball all summer and is just getting ramped up. Wiseman will either improve with reps or not and they can figure that out as the season goes on but the backup center is not why they are 3-5.

This is the least nuanced conversation and it's obnoxious so many fans reel onto this. Klay was bad for about 60% of the season, then he continued top play from bad, to mediocre, to good and also great. His form was all over all the place including the playoffs. But yes, lets remember his defense in the last 2-3 games of the season. That is what matters, not all the other games he played (or him bricking shot after shot trying to emulate G6 Klay in game 6 vs Boston).

The more annoying aspect about Klay is that his ego is put above the team. Steph came in a super sub during the playoffs not to immediately mess with the chemistry of the team. Klay missed 2 1/2 years and comes back when JP is having a great season. What happens, he immediately starts. You know Kerr is making these decisions to message his ego. Last game also showed the problem in the match, where he was just jacking terrible shot after terrible shot. This is while playing bad defense and being in poor shooting form. So why keep taking them? Got to get back to form, even if he forces things and hurts the team. **** the team, make sure you get back to what you think should be. That's important. The problem is most people don't want to address any of these issues because unlike Draymond, Klay is super likeable. Logic shouldn't even matter at this point, just look at the positives and put your head in the sand for the rest.

Another problem is that he's the 10th highest paid player in the league.

Wiseman and Klay are a problem is because both are really bad and both take up the starting and bench positions, so the team is always with a handicap. It doesn't mean that other players are also not stinking it up, but it adds up a lot when it happens every game where 1/2 if not both are having such a poor game that it affects both offense and defense.

Klay can get back to being far more useful though, once his he gets some strengths in those legs. But it's important that he accepts focusing more on defense instead of just jacking up horrible shots praying he gets hot. They should just lower Klay's minutes. That way he has more strength to play defense and get back up to speed within time. The only reason he's playing as much as he is is for Kerr to message his ego.

Wiseman on the other hand is just an abomination. Incredible physical skills on one of the dumbest basketball players in the league that's crazy score-thirsty and has no feel to the game. Him I have almost no faith in, but hopefully he proves me wrong. I know this team wouldn't sniff anything of relevance last postseason had he played.

Lacks nuance and is obnoxious because I don’t agree with you?

My money is on Klay and Wiseman being better in 20 games and that the growing pains will be worth it.

I find the chicken little overreactions obnoxious and lacking nuance so we are even.

Not because of what you agree/disagree with, but going with this "we won so EVERYTHING tfrom last year" spiel which is ridiculous. You talking about Klay's defense for 2-3 games in the finals (one of which he was offensively complete ****), while ignoring the massive large amount of poor games throughout the entire season including playoffs is either disingenuous or naive.

I would hope in Wiseman's case you're right that he improves. At this point, he can't get any worse.

[whatisacenter]

i don't want to speak for the OP but I think his point about Klay is that he (and the team) need to realize he's not the same dude anymore, and his role needs to be adjusted accordingly.

dont think this is earth shattering stuff and pretty obvious at this point.

Last season fans were clamoring for Klay to get benched as well and he ended up being major positive, especially defensively, in the final close out games in the finals. To say it's pretty obvious that he isn't the same dude this early in the season when he is on record saying he couldn't play pickup ball during the summer doesn't ring true to me unless you are talking about him ever getting back to 2019 standards.

in what way was Klay a 'major positive' in the POs last season?

in the POs he had a -4 net rating and was 9th on the team in On/Off with a whopping -11.7.

now im not gonna fault him for that considering he was coming back from injury but the idea that he was a 'major positive' is just flat out untrue.

I said he was a major positive in the last three games of the finals, especially defensively, but he had other big games throughout the playoffs and in 4 out of the 6 finals games he shot 39% or better from 3 to go along with his improved D.

Were there ugly stretches of games from Klay last season? Yes.

Did it payoff for the coach and FO stick with him? Yes.

Do I think he will look better after a few weeks? Yes.

Could I be wrong? Yes.

[whatisacenter]

This is the least nuanced conversation and it's obnoxious so many fans reel onto this. Klay was bad for about 60% of the season, then he continued top play from bad, to mediocre, to good and also great. His form was all over all the place including the playoffs. But yes, lets remember his defense in the last 2-3 games of the season. That is what matters, not all the other games he played (or him bricking shot after shot trying to emulate G6 Klay in game 6 vs Boston).

The more annoying aspect about Klay is that his ego is put above the team. Steph came in a super sub during the playoffs not to immediately mess with the chemistry of the team. Klay missed 2 1/2 years and comes back when JP is having a great season. What happens, he immediately starts. You know Kerr is making these decisions to message his ego. Last game also showed the problem in the match, where he was just jacking terrible shot after terrible shot. This is while playing bad defense and being in poor shooting form. So why keep taking them? Got to get back to form, even if he forces things and hurts the team. **** the team, make sure you get back to what you think should be. That's important. The problem is most people don't want to address any of these issues because unlike Draymond, Klay is super likeable. Logic shouldn't even matter at this point, just look at the positives and put your head in the sand for the rest.

Another problem is that he's the 10th highest paid player in the league.

Wiseman and Klay are a problem is because both are really bad and both take up the starting and bench positions, so the team is always with a handicap. It doesn't mean that other players are also not stinking it up, but it adds up a lot when it happens every game where 1/2 if not both are having such a poor game that it affects both offense and defense.

Klay can get back to being far more useful though, once his he gets some strengths in those legs. But it's important that he accepts focusing more on defense instead of just jacking up horrible shots praying he gets hot. They should just lower Klay's minutes. That way he has more strength to play defense and get back up to speed within time. The only reason he's playing as much as he is is for Kerr to message his ego.

Wiseman on the other hand is just an abomination. Incredible physical skills on one of the dumbest basketball players in the league that's crazy score-thirsty and has no feel to the game. Him I have almost no faith in, but hopefully he proves me wrong. I know this team wouldn't sniff anything of relevance last postseason had he played.

Lacks nuance and is obnoxious because I don’t agree with you?

My money is on Klay and Wiseman being better in 20 games and that the growing pains will be worth it.

I find the chicken little overreactions obnoxious and lacking nuance so we are even.

Not because of what you agree/disagree with, but going with this "we won so EVERYTHING tfrom last year" spiel which is ridiculous. You talking about Klay's defense for 2-3 games in the finals (one of which he was offensively complete ****), while ignoring the massive large amount of poor games throughout the entire season including playoffs is either disingenuous or naive.

I would hope in Wiseman's case you're right that he improves. At this point, he can't get any worse.

I'm not ignoring it. I just think it stood to reason that he would come back after a 2+ year hiatus and struggle initially.

I think he will look better in a couple of weeks and eventually be closer to the old Klay than he ever looked last season.

[clyde21]

Steph was a huge part of it, but it is still a team sport.

We won a title with mostly the same team last year so it's hard to agree that most of our players are broken beyond repair.

don't think anyone is suggesting that. all what is being suggested is a recalibration in roles.

[DonaldSanders]

Steph was a huge part of it, but it is still a team sport.

We won a title with mostly the same team last year so it's hard to agree that most of our players are broken beyond repair.

don't think anyone is suggesting that. all what is being suggested is a recalibration in roles.

Yup, role recalibration and a trade for 1-2 guys. We aren't developing Wise and Kuminga at the same time and the bench is a bit thin. Starters have the best net rating in the league last I checked, just need to tweak things a bit. Everything would go smoother with 1 fewer guy to develop and 1-2 more vets.

We're very close to being capable of repeating.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Lack of cohesion is compounding the issue.

The starters look great, but aren't there defensively yet. Lack of preseason (no klay), travel, short training camp could be reasons.

The bench unit had a complete overhaul. Gp2, opj, bjelly, even jta and lee ate minutes. They were vet players that knew their roles. Outside of poole, we are integrating a whole new group. Jmg is really the only vet that knows his role. Ddv has been hurt. Moody is the only kid that knows his role. Then we have wiseman and jk still not knowing their role however wise does seem to get it offensively (defense is a different story).

Kerr is trying to stagger curry and wiggs with the bench to help stabilize, but don't think that's enough. Might need to have 2 bench players on at all times (not klay though). Curry/dray or wiggs/Looney with 3 bench players. No need to see 5 bench guys on the floor unless it's a blowout.

[Money_]

If the playoffs started today they would go 8 maybe 9 deep. and probably hold their own.
They lost a lot of coaching and key glue vets...

Klay is still getting his body and mind right. I'm confident he will. Not worried about him other than, he needs to just take it easy on himself.

Poole is not good on defense, but he is making more of an effort. I see him trying too hard on offense. I'd like to see him take a step back and look at some film and ask himself how can he help this team besides scoring... because we know he can do that.

JK needs to play the 4 and just simplify the game for himself. He's 20, and not going to get more minutes until he can consistently play his role

Wiseman is going to progress but is still a step slow on help defense, also just barely getting reps. I think he really wants to improve so I believe he will this season. Enough to help make a difference is the question. At his age and experience level I don't expect a drastic jump. But you never know.

JTA, GP2, Lee, PorterJr were all good to great defenders. Even slow footed Belli made smart plays on defense. We are missing them terribly.

The youth need to be watching film and becoming obsessed with defense or we'll just be watching more of the same.

[SpreeChokeJob]

Steph was a huge part of it, but it is still a team sport.

We won a title with mostly the same team last year so it's hard to agree that most of our players are broken beyond repair.

don't think anyone is suggesting that. all what is being suggested is a recalibration in roles.

Yup, role recalibration and a trade for 1-2 guys. We aren't developing Wise and Kuminga at the same time and the bench is a bit thin. Starters have the best net rating in the league last I checked, just need to tweak things a bit. Everything would go smoother with 1 fewer guy to develop and 1-2 more vets.

We're very close to being capable of repeating.

Those 1-2 vets are tough to get. The team is close but very far. If Lacob was willing to trade Wiseman or Kuminga then some solid vets might be had. I don’t think he would be willing to even if they could repeat. So that means picking up castaways who are below average. Will that put this team over the top, I doubt it. Unless an opportunity for a star drops on this team’s lap this year through trade, there isn’t many avenues to build the team up to where they are contenders. I see a lot of young hungry teams and this team looks like the older Pistons fighting off the younger Bulls.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Imo, poole is right up there with klay amd wiseman because his defense has gotten worse. Poole is alot more active on defense, but in reality all he is doing is gambling more which is causing all sorts of problems because he can't recover.

[Crazy-Canuck]

don't think anyone is suggesting that. all what is being suggested is a recalibration in roles.

Yup, role recalibration and a trade for 1-2 guys. We aren't developing Wise and Kuminga at the same time and the bench is a bit thin. Starters have the best net rating in the league last I checked, just need to tweak things a bit. Everything would go smoother with 1 fewer guy to develop and 1-2 more vets.

We're very close to being capable of repeating.

Those 1-2 vets are tough to get. The team is close but very far. If Lacob was willing to trade Wiseman or Kuminga then some solid vets might be had. I don’t think he would be willing to even if they could repeat. So that means picking up castaways who are below average. Will that put this team over the top, I doubt it. Unless an opportunity for a star drops on this team’s lap this year through trade, there isn’t many avenues to build the team up to where they are contenders. I see a lot of young hungry teams and this team looks like the older Pistons fighting off the younger Bulls.

Second unit needs a facilitator to help the kids out. Insert my favorite vet: rubio.

[Big J]

This team needs Iggy to calm down the 2nd unit. You guys are underestimating his value.

[Impuniti]

Yup, role recalibration and a trade for 1-2 guys. We aren't developing Wise and Kuminga at the same time and the bench is a bit thin. Starters have the best net rating in the league last I checked, just need to tweak things a bit. Everything would go smoother with 1 fewer guy to develop and 1-2 more vets.

We're very close to being capable of repeating.

Those 1-2 vets are tough to get. The team is close but very far. If Lacob was willing to trade Wiseman or Kuminga then some solid vets might be had. I don’t think he would be willing to even if they could repeat. So that means picking up castaways who are below average. Will that put this team over the top, I doubt it. Unless an opportunity for a star drops on this team’s lap this year through trade, there isn’t many avenues to build the team up to where they are contenders. I see a lot of young hungry teams and this team looks like the older Pistons fighting off the younger Bulls.

Second unit needs a facilitator to help the kids out. Insert my favorite vet: rubio.

I don't see the Cavs letting him go, they like him a lot. I think the goal is for DD to help, but I still don't think that's the solution. IMO, Warriors should put Dray with JP and co-share the playmaking duties together, JP struggled big time as a playmaker in the playoffs when Curry/Dray weren't on the floor. Have guys like Moody and DD play with Steph, and Klay can play with Dray/JP.

A lot of issues are rotations because there's too many kids running around making many mistakes, all of which play together.

One player I'd love to have back is Bjelica. I think the Warriors are easily missing more shooters to space the floor right now. They lost 3 shooters and replaced with them with DD. That's it.

[xdrta+]

This team needs Iggy to calm down the 2nd unit. You guys are underestimating his value.

What's his value if he never plays?

[clyde21]

im just not a fan of the team's IQ in general at this point and I think we're starting to notice it more defensively with the lack of communication and slow processing.

Klay's never been really high bball IQ guy, and after the injury he looks worse from that standpoint, Poole's not a bball IQ guy especially not defensively, both Wise's and Minga's bball IQs seem low at this point

out of the high min rotation guys, I'm not really sure who qualifies as having + bball IQ outside Steph, Dray and Loon. Wiggy's okay and maybe Moody but he's young and will make his fair share of mistakes still.

last year we were just a much smarter team. even a guy like Belly was a + IQ guy who while couldn't make all the plays at the very least know the right plays to make. you can really notice on defense with our bad transition D, slow rotations and lack of communication this year that we're just a dumber team overall. someone said this reminded them of the 20-21 team with bball geniuses like Kelly Oubre and that's probably spot on.

[Onus]

im just not a fan of the team's IQ in general at this point and I think we're starting to notice it more defensively with the lack of communication and slow processing.

Klay's never been really high bball IQ guy, and after the injury he looks worse from that standpoint, Poole's not a bball IQ guy especially not defensively, both Wise's and Minga's bball IQs seem low at this point

out of the high min rotation guys, I'm not really sure who qualifies as having + bball IQ outside Steph, Dray and Loon. Wiggy's okay and maybe Moody but he's young and will make his fair share of mistakes still.

last year we were just a much smarter team. even a guy like Belly was a + IQ guy who while couldn't make all the plays at the very least know the right plays to make. you can really notice on defense with our bad transition D, slow rotations and lack of communication this year that we're just a dumber team overall. someone said this reminded them of the 20-21 team with bball geniuses like Kelly Oubre and that's probably spot on.

Probably this, which if true we probably need 1 more vet just in case. Not sure where JAM fits in this yet.

I think instead of pulling looney early maybe they pull draymond early and let draymond settle in with the 2nd unit.

[clyde21]

im just not a fan of the team's IQ in general at this point and I think we're starting to notice it more defensively with the lack of communication and slow processing.

Klay's never been really high bball IQ guy, and after the injury he looks worse from that standpoint, Poole's not a bball IQ guy especially not defensively, both Wise's and Minga's bball IQs seem low at this point

out of the high min rotation guys, I'm not really sure who qualifies as having + bball IQ outside Steph, Dray and Loon. Wiggy's okay and maybe Moody but he's young and will make his fair share of mistakes still.

last year we were just a much smarter team. even a guy like Belly was a + IQ guy who while couldn't make all the plays at the very least know the right plays to make. you can really notice on defense with our bad transition D, slow rotations and lack of communication this year that we're just a dumber team overall. someone said this reminded them of the 20-21 team with bball geniuses like Kelly Oubre and that's probably spot on.

Probably this, which if true we probably need 1 more vet just in case. Not sure where JAM fits in this yet.

I think instead of pulling looney early maybe they pull draymond early and let draymond settle in with the 2nd unit.

agreed

i'd pull Dray early for either JaMychal or Minga and again, I'd start Moody and have Klay gun off the bench. give more time to Dray as a facilitator with Poole/Klay coming off the bench from that 2 minute mark in the 1st qtr to like the mid second.

and, tbh, the only time I'd put Wiseman in at this point if there is a clear size mismatch that the opponent is taking advantage of, or garbage time, otherwise we need to figure out our actual rotations and the Wiseman experiment is starting to get in the way of that.

[and1GS]

Steph was a huge part of it, but it is still a team sport.

We won a title with mostly the same team last year so it's hard to agree that most of our players are broken beyond repair.

don't think anyone is suggesting that. all what is being suggested is a recalibration in roles.

Based on your comments here and in other threads I'm not really clear on what re-calibration you have in mind for Jordan Poole other than trading him? Same with Wiseman and same with Klay. Maybe I'm missing your point, would you help elucidate that for me? Not trying to be facetious, just curious.

For me, I would say Klay's minutes should be cut by about 10 and those should be handed to Moody...but Klay is only playing 25 mpg. It's actually impressive he has stunk it up this much in such little time. I guess the only option there is sending him to the bench until he sorts himself out? Really don't want to see Jordan starting as his defense still makes my eyes bleed and I'm not confident Moody is ready to role with our core lineup.

Further IMO only, Wiseman should get the Kuminga treatment. If it's not a 'Wiseman game' then Kuminga plays and vice versa until one of them seizes the role. It's not a competition right now and looks more like minute gifting to James which is difficult to watch.

[clyde21]

Steph was a huge part of it, but it is still a team sport.

We won a title with mostly the same team last year so it's hard to agree that most of our players are broken beyond repair.

don't think anyone is suggesting that. all what is being suggested is a recalibration in roles.

Based on your comments here and in other threads I'm not really clear on what re-calibration you have in mind for Jordan Poole other than trading him? Same with Wiseman and same with Klay. Maybe I'm missing your point, would you help elucidate that for me? Not trying to be facetious, just curious.

For me, I would say Klay's minutes should be cut by about 10 and those should be handed to Moody...but Klay is only playing 25 mpg. It's actually impressive he has stunk it up this much in such little time. I guess the only option there is sending him to the bench until he sorts himself out? Really don't want to see Jordan starting as his defense still makes my eyes bleed and I'm not confident Moody is ready to role with our core lineup.

Further IMO only, Wiseman should get the Kuminga treatment. If it's not a 'Wiseman game' then Kuminga plays and vice versa until one of them seizes the role. It's not a competition right now and looks more like minute gifting to James which is difficult to watch.

i've already mentioned this a few times

i'd bench Klay and start Moody

i'd only play Wise against bigger teams or in spot minutes

i'd emphasize Minga as first big off the bench instead of Wise

as for Poole, he is what he is at this point, which is a scoring 6th man, and should be treated as such. i think we need to be more careful about including him in too many closing lineups. i don't like seeing lineups with him, Steph and Klay in crucial situations. i think we need to pick between Klay and Poole (whoever is hotter that game) in those situations and go with more defensive looks.

i also think we need to see less JP on ball and more JP off ball and put the ball even more in Steph's/Dray's hands, maybe even have Wiggy create a bit as well from the pivot, or maybe some inside-out looks from Loon. getting DDV back as well will help imo getting the ball out of JP's hands.

[Warriors Analyst]

Klay is intent on proving hes the same player he was, similar to Westbrook. He also forced his way back in the lineup when he returned last year and the team went on a spiral. Some hard conversations will need to be had at some point, but its obvious this is a transiton year for the warriors.

Did something else happen on the day of Klay's return, perhaps a substantial injury to a key rotation player?

[floppymoose]

I've been hoping for a Klay/Wiseman trade since after the championship. I don't need anything back. As long as they are on the squad, Kerr is going to feel the need to play them, for a variety of reasons. Let's remove that burden.