2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[Oscar9992]

And what does that say that Luka was closer to what he is now when he came into the league and Giannis has improved more than any player ever and….
Did you watch the Bucks Celtics series at all Giannis dominated Lopez was not what he is this year and we had no Middleton Giannis wins his 2nd title if both are healthy the Bucks as a team shot the worst ever from 3 and still took the Celtics to 7 gms even this year we are shooting terrible from 3 and 8-0 but whatever I will take Giannis any day over anybody

If someone said they take Giannis over Luka, nobody says anything. When people say offensively he’s his equal, that’s where the disagreement starts. The reason Giannis has a great argument over Luka for many people is his defensive dominance. By no means is he an offensive equal. Unless you’re purely measuring volume+raw efficiency and not factoring in playmaking, how hard a player is to game plan for, ability to close games. That stuff matters.

No I am talking game planning and everything do you ever watch tape of players when they are playing the bucks all 5 opposing players are eyes on Giannis when he has the ball and if his teammates could shoot he would have triple doubles all the time is he a pg no but he’s dam good at passing that ball plus he’s the best in the league in the open court Luka is great but I still have Jokic above him too

Giannis is good playmaker for Forward but he is nowhere near Luka at playmaking.

[greekbuck34]

Luka is Swiss cheese on defense. He needs to play both ends before I’d consider him an MVP.

this year its solid. no Giannis but not bad

In order to realize the difference in simple terms.

Opponents shot percentage

Beyond the 3p line:

Vs Luka = 38.5%
Vs Giannis = 31.6%

At the rim:

Vs Luka = 70.4%
Vs Giannis = 40.7%

2p in general:

VS Luka = 58.1%
VS Giannis = 34.7%

Luka is still bellow average and they are targeting him not only because of that but also because he doesn't have the energy to play both defense and prime Harden ball for the whole game.

Giannis is being avoided by the opponent because its futile to go 1v1 against him for long periods but he is still ridiculously impactful because he is the best help defender in the league.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629029/defense-dash
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203507/defense-dash

[Packbuckman]

If someone said they take Giannis over Luka, nobody says anything. When people say offensively he’s his equal, that’s where the disagreement starts. The reason Giannis has a great argument over Luka for many people is his defensive dominance. By no means is he an offensive equal. Unless you’re purely measuring volume+raw efficiency and not factoring in playmaking, how hard a player is to game plan for, ability to close games. That stuff matters.

No I am talking game planning and everything do you ever watch tape of players when they are playing the bucks all 5 opposing players are eyes on Giannis when he has the ball and if his teammates could shoot he would have triple doubles all the time is he a pg no but he’s dam good at passing that ball plus he’s the best in the league in the open court Luka is great but I still have Jokic above him too

Giannis is good playmaker for Forward but he is nowhere near Luka at playmaking.

That’s why I said he’s no pg but his 6 assists easily could be 8 is what I said is Luka what Giannis is in the open court the answer is hell no they both have their strengths on offense. Giannis drive effort and defense just separates him from everyone else.

[Vampirate]

Giannis is winning and playing as nearly as good on offense and is worlds ahead defensively. I agree right now it’s Giannis’s to lose if it’s just about play and I don’t think anyone thinks Luka is as good as a overall player as Giannis but if it’s close I think it Lukas turn to win mvp.

From a pure offensive point of view Luka's combination of efficient scoring and play making puts him above Giannis offensively, though Giannis is still the best 2 way player in the game and it's not close.

Giannis just dropped a triple double tonight while not leading his team in scoring or shot attempts - all while remaining undefeated without his second best player.

Giannis is playing on a plane that is approaching (but not as good as) prime Lebron.

Luka could win the MVP and still be somewhere between 3 and 10 best all around player in league -

with Giannis and Jokic being the best two players on earth - unquestioned in my mind.

Here's my point, Giannis is not playing as good as Luka is now on offense.

1. Yes, Giannis is the better player.

2. Giannis team is still better than Luka's team, even without Middleton.

3. I do not believe Giannis can do what Luka is currently doing, Giannis as good as he is has never averaged over 6 assists in his career, this to go along with 3 Turn Overs.

Luka is averaging 9 assists so far and only 3.3 turn overs. In terms of pure offense, he's outdoing what harden did when he was going off for 36 points and 7.5 assists that year. Can Luka keep this up? Who knows, but he's the only player in the NBA that can probably do this at this time.

Luka is literally the entire offensive engine for the Mavs. This doesn't mean he's better than Giannis though, it just means atm he's playing a clear tier above Giannis offensively.

[Packbuckman]

From a pure offensive point of view Luka's combination of efficient scoring and play making puts him above Giannis offensively, though Giannis is still the best 2 way player in the game and it's not close.

Giannis just dropped a triple double tonight while not leading his team in scoring or shot attempts - all while remaining undefeated without his second best player.

Giannis is playing on a plane that is approaching (but not as good as) prime Lebron.

Luka could win the MVP and still be somewhere between 3 and 10 best all around player in league -

with Giannis and Jokic being the best two players on earth - unquestioned in my mind.

Here's my point, Giannis is not playing as good as Luka is now on offense.

1. Yes, Giannis is the better player.

2. Giannis team is still better than Luka's team, even without Middleton.

3. I do not believe Giannis can do what Luka is currently doing, Giannis as good as he is has never averaged over 6 assists in his career, this to go along with 3 Turn Overs.

Luka is averaging 9 assists so far and only 3.3 turn overs. In terms of pure offense, he's outdoing what harden did when he was going off for 36 points and 7.5 assists that year. Can Luka keep this up? Who knows, but he's the only player in the NBA that can probably do this at this time.

Luka is literally the entire offensive engine for the Mavs. This doesn't mean he's better than Giannis though, it just means atm he's playing a clear tier above Giannis offensively.

No it means they play differently on offense the only reason Giannis hasn’t gone over 6 assists is his teammates continuing to miss open shots and I do mean wide open shots this year especially to many gms already under 30% from 3 so that 1.5 assists more not to impressive really

[Vampirate]

Giannis just dropped a triple double tonight while not leading his team in scoring or shot attempts - all while remaining undefeated without his second best player.

Giannis is playing on a plane that is approaching (but not as good as) prime Lebron.

Luka could win the MVP and still be somewhere between 3 and 10 best all around player in league -

with Giannis and Jokic being the best two players on earth - unquestioned in my mind.

Here's my point, Giannis is not playing as good as Luka is now on offense.

1. Yes, Giannis is the better player.

2. Giannis team is still better than Luka's team, even without Middleton.

3. I do not believe Giannis can do what Luka is currently doing, Giannis as good as he is has never averaged over 6 assists in his career, this to go along with 3 Turn Overs.

Luka is averaging 9 assists so far and only 3.3 turn overs. In terms of pure offense, he's outdoing what harden did when he was going off for 36 points and 7.5 assists that year. Can Luka keep this up? Who knows, but he's the only player in the NBA that can probably do this at this time.

Luka is literally the entire offensive engine for the Mavs. This doesn't mean he's better than Giannis though, it just means atm he's playing a clear tier above Giannis offensively.

No it means they play differently on offense the only reason Giannis hasn’t gone over 6 assists is his teammates continuing to miss open shots and I do mean wide open shots this year especially to many gms already under 30% from 3 so that 1.5 assists more not to impressive really

I think what it boils down to is Giannis, while he can have nights like tonight, is not a point guard, you have Jrue Holiday for that. Even when the 3 point shots aren't falling, a point guard can still impact the game. Then of course you have games where Giannis is too TO prone. On average, it'll put him to be a good not great playmaker.

That's the thing about Luka though, he pretty much is a point guard in a 6"7 body.

Yes, there'll be games when Giannis looks great and Luka doesn't look as good, but on average, Luka can literally run an offense, get more assists while turning the ball over less. His handles are in another class than Giannis.

[Archx]

Luka is Swiss cheese on defense. He needs to play both ends before I’d consider him an MVP.

this year its solid. no Giannis but not bad

In order to realize the difference in simple terms.

Opponents shot percentage

Beyond the 3p line:

Vs Luka = 38.5%
Vs Giannis = 31.6%

At the rim:

Vs Luka = 70.4%
Vs Giannis = 40.7%

2p in general:

VS Luka = 58.1%
VS Giannis = 34.7%

Luka is still bellow average and they are targeting him not only because of that but also because he doesn't have the energy to play both defense and prime Harden ball for the whole game.

Giannis is being avoided by the opponent because its futile to go 1v1 against him for long periods but he is still ridiculously impactful because he is the best help defender in the league.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629029/defense-dash
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203507/defense-dash

You were either looking at the wrong numbers or they didn't account for tonights games. The difference is much smaller than what you wrote.
Luka is a good defender when he wants to be, problem is, he doesn't do it often to conserve his energy, that's his weakness.

[whatever_]

Doncic has that kind of raw talent that everybody dreams of, that talent you can´t just develop by working hard.

[zonedefense]

After todays game Doncic leads the league in all standard catch all boxscore metrics. PER, BPM, VORP and WS. Giannis is 2nd in every single one but on top of that he has stellar +/- numbers and the better team record.
Still advantage Giannis.

[GeoBar]

Doncic has that kind of raw talent that everybody dreams of, that talent you can´t just develop by working hard.

And thats why Giannis deserves more credit than anyone...Because without having Doncic's raw talent or Jokic's pure talent or (for some "experts") no basketball skills at all he is right up there on the top.

[CobraCommander]

Giannis just dropped a triple double tonight while not leading his team in scoring or shot attempts - all while remaining undefeated without his second best player.

Giannis is playing on a plane that is approaching (but not as good as) prime Lebron.

Luka could win the MVP and still be somewhere between 3 and 10 best all around player in league -

with Giannis and Jokic being the best two players on earth - unquestioned in my mind.

Here's my point, Giannis is not playing as good as Luka is now on offense.

1. Yes, Giannis is the better player.

2. Giannis team is still better than Luka's team, even without Middleton.

3. I do not believe Giannis can do what Luka is currently doing, Giannis as good as he is has never averaged over 6 assists in his career, this to go along with 3 Turn Overs.

Luka is averaging 9 assists so far and only 3.3 turn overs. In terms of pure offense, he's outdoing what harden did when he was going off for 36 points and 7.5 assists that year. Can Luka keep this up? Who knows, but he's the only player in the NBA that can probably do this at this time.

Luka is literally the entire offensive engine for the Mavs. This doesn't mean he's better than Giannis though, it just means atm he's playing a clear tier above Giannis offensively.

No it means they play differently on offense the only reason Giannis hasn’t gone over 6 assists is his teammates continuing to miss open shots and I do mean wide open shots this year especially to many gms already under 30% from 3 so that 1.5 assists more not to impressive really

Some people forget the goal is to win the game and not pile up stats. If you win and have stats great. It’s the Russell Vs Wilt argument. Both had great stats but one figured out how to be a part of a winning recipe 10 damn times. Giannis doesnt say a damn thing about Luka or Booker or anyone when he talks about the leaders in the league even though he know he is great individually. It is because Giannis knows Curry has won 4 in 8 years, KD and Nets should have been a championship threat, and Lebron with a healthy AD should have been a championship threat. Giannis and now Jokic are concerned with the rings because they have back to back MVPs… now it’s less about counting stats and more about counting rings. Luka says the same thing btw- mvp isn’t his goal. Luka came in healthy and is tearing it up…. But he isn’t playing better by any stretch just because he has more points- when the mavs are barely holding on and have lost two huge (I think 20 point)4th quarter leads and almost lost yesterday and the bucks cruising and undefeated. Don’t disparage one to prop the other one up. Luka has been amazing Giannis too

[Yuri36]

Doncic has that kind of raw talent that everybody dreams of, that talent you can´t just develop by working hard.

And thats why Giannis deserves more credit than anyone...Because without having Doncic's raw talent or Jokic's pure talent or (for some "experts") no basketball skills at all he is right up there on the top.

He has a very rare athletic talent though, the sort of physical freakness you rarely see IN ANY SPORT.
Harden was probably being a bit too rude about what he said about Giannis few years ago but he was basically right.
Being that tall, that fast and that agile is a combination that we've very rarely seen in the past, let's be honest and that's literally like having a cheatcode in basketball as long of course as you develop a minimum of basketball pure skills near that.

Note that in the other hand, he has praised Doncic no end while he is usually not the type of guy to give praises like this.

[CobraCommander]

this year its solid. no Giannis but not bad

In order to realize the difference in simple terms.

Opponents shot percentage

Beyond the 3p line:

Vs Luka = 38.5%
Vs Giannis = 31.6%

At the rim:

Vs Luka = 70.4%
Vs Giannis = 40.7%

2p in general:

VS Luka = 58.1%
VS Giannis = 34.7%

Luka is still bellow average and they are targeting him not only because of that but also because he doesn't have the energy to play both defense and prime Harden ball for the whole game.

Giannis is being avoided by the opponent because its futile to go 1v1 against him for long periods but he is still ridiculously impactful because he is the best help defender in the league.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629029/defense-dash
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203507/defense-dash

You were either looking at the wrong numbers or they didn't account for tonights games. The difference is much smaller than what you wrote.
Luka is a good defender when he wants to be, problem is, he doesn't do it often to conserve his energy, that's his weakness.

So you know why Luka doesn’t play consistent defense? Or do you know Luka doesn’t consistently play defense

Ones a fact the other is an opinion lol

Btw- this is the mvp race we all wanted - a start of the year in shape Luka!!! No excuse Luka let’s go!

[CobraCommander]

Doncic has that kind of raw talent that everybody dreams of, that talent you can´t just develop by working hard.

And thats why Giannis deserves more credit than anyone...Because without having Doncic's raw talent or Jokic's pure talent or (for some "experts") no basketball skills at all he is right up there on the top.

He has a very rare athletic talent though, the sort of physical freakness you rarely see IN ANY SPORT.
Harden was probably being a bit too rude about what he said about Giannis few years ago but he was basically right.

Note that in the other hand, he has praised Doncic no end while he is usually not the type of guy to give praises like this.

So harden praised Luka- the guy that plays like him on both ends of the floor that has yet to win a ring while being critical of the guy that has won a finals mvp?

I don’t think harden is a fair judge… this is the “shaq not good - he just big” argument coming from 6’6” -6’10” guys and we looking at them thinking - imagine AI or IT at 6’8” lol

[Yuri36]

And thats why Giannis deserves more credit than anyone...Because without having Doncic's raw talent or Jokic's pure talent or (for some "experts") no basketball skills at all he is right up there on the top.

He has a very rare athletic talent though, the sort of physical freakness you rarely see IN ANY SPORT.
Harden was probably being a bit too rude about what he said about Giannis few years ago but he was basically right.

Note that in the other hand, he has praised Doncic no end while he is usually not the type of guy to give praises like this.

So harden praised Luka- the guy that plays like him on both ends of the floor that has yet to win a ring while being critical of the guy that has won a finals mvp?

I don’t think harden is a fair judge… this is the “shaq not good - he just big” argument coming from 6’6” -6’10” guys and we looking at them thinking - imagine AI or IT at 6’8” lol

Thé comments Harden made about Giannis were made before Giannis won his first ring.

[CobraCommander]

He has a very rare athletic talent though, the sort of physical freakness you rarely see IN ANY SPORT.
Harden was probably being a bit too rude about what he said about Giannis few years ago but he was basically right.

Note that in the other hand, he has praised Doncic no end while he is usually not the type of guy to give praises like this.

So harden praised Luka- the guy that plays like him on both ends of the floor that has yet to win a ring while being critical of the guy that has won a finals mvp?

I don’t think harden is a fair judge… this is the “shaq not good - he just big” argument coming from 6’6” -6’10” guys and we looking at them thinking - imagine AI or IT at 6’8” lol

Thé comments Harden made about Giannis were made before Giannis won his first ring.

Exactly- harden didn’t know crap then. Giannis has proven to be right- took an aight team to the mountain top. Roster just ok… Harden has played with much better teams and hasn’t had nearly the impact or success. All the talk about potential and Giannis the only guy in the league with at least 1 of all of the major accomplishments. Mvp, finals mvp, ring, dpoy- Giannis has the career cycle already- harden didn’t get how good this man was and barked up that tree and the tree fell on him

[Yuri36]

So harden praised Luka- the guy that plays like him on both ends of the floor that has yet to win a ring while being critical of the guy that has won a finals mvp?

I don’t think harden is a fair judge… this is the “shaq not good - he just big” argument coming from 6’6” -6’10” guys and we looking at them thinking - imagine AI or IT at 6’8” lol

Thé comments Harden made about Giannis were made before Giannis won his first ring.

Exactly- harden didn’t know crap then. Giannis has proven to be right- took an aight team to the mountain top. Roster just ok… Harden has played with much better teams and hasn’t had nearly the impact or success. All the talk about potential and Giannis the only guy in the league with at least 1 of all of the major accomplishments. Mvp, finals mvp, ring, dpoy- Giannis has the career cycle already- harden didn’t get how good this man was and barked up that tree and the tree fell on him

Actually, Harden never said Giannis wasn't a MVP caliber player, he was mostly saying that for Giannis, it was much much easier than for 99.99% of the players to be at that level because of his unreal physical gifts.

[sunsbg]

A two man race this season. There is still time to bet on both and win some money.

Giannis more likely to keep current form over the course of the season with lower usage. A better record doesn't hurt either.

[Archx]

Spoiler:

In order to realize the difference in simple terms.

Opponents shot percentage

Beyond the 3p line:

Vs Luka = 38.5%
Vs Giannis = 31.6%

At the rim:

Vs Luka = 70.4%
Vs Giannis = 40.7%

2p in general:

VS Luka = 58.1%
VS Giannis = 34.7%

Luka is still bellow average and they are targeting him not only because of that but also because he doesn't have the energy to play both defense and prime Harden ball for the whole game.

Giannis is being avoided by the opponent because its futile to go 1v1 against him for long periods but he is still ridiculously impactful because he is the best help defender in the league.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629029/defense-dash
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203507/defense-dash

You were either looking at the wrong numbers or they didn't account for tonights games. The difference is much smaller than what you wrote.
Luka is a good defender when he wants to be, problem is, he doesn't do it often to conserve his energy, that's his weakness.

So you know why Luka doesn’t play consistent defense? Or do you know Luka doesn’t consistently play defense

Ones a fact the other is an opinion lol

Btw- this is the mvp race we all wanted - a start of the year in shape Luka!!! No excuse Luka let’s go!

Uhmm, we already discussed this. Doncic knows he doesn't play defense consistently as good as he should have, part of it is conditioning and part of it is he instantly becomes passive when fouls start to pile up or he simply doesn't want to foul. Last year he went to extreme when even Kidd called him out and told him to start trying and move his feet.

But again, it is a valid criticism, no one denies that... But to simply say that he's a **** defender or whatever, that's wrong. You can say he just takes too many nights off or is lazy on that end, that we can agree on.

But let's not pretend that Bucks have poor defenders behind Giannis, he's getting a lot of help aswell. I kinda wish we would see those two play together sometime in the future, would be totally unfair for the rest of the league lol.

[sunsbg]

Spoiler:

You were either looking at the wrong numbers or they didn't account for tonights games. The difference is much smaller than what you wrote.
Luka is a good defender when he wants to be, problem is, he doesn't do it often to conserve his energy, that's his weakness.

So you know why Luka doesn’t play consistent defense? Or do you know Luka doesn’t consistently play defense

Ones a fact the other is an opinion lol

Btw- this is the mvp race we all wanted - a start of the year in shape Luka!!! No excuse Luka let’s go!

Uhmm, we already discussed this. Doncic knows he doesn't play defense consistently as good as he should have, part of it is conditioning and part of it is he instantly becomes passive when fouls start to pile up or he simply doesn't want to foul. Last year he went to extreme when even Kidd called him out and told him to start trying and move his feet.

But again, it is a valid criticism, no one denies that... But to simply say that he's a **** defender or whatever, that's wrong. You can say he just takes too many nights off or is lazy on that end, that we can agree on.

But let's not pretend that Bucks have poor defenders behind Giannis, he's getting a lot of help aswell. I kinda wish we would see those two play together sometime in the future, would be totally unfair for the rest of the league lol.

I guess that's why he said playing in NBA is easier. One doesn't have to play defense consistently.