Fun with Stats!!!

[SWedd523]

17th in pace and continuing to drop.

Old dogs, new tricks

[Benjamin Linus]

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[fatlever]

Our offense has crashed without Gordon. Getting Terry back had 0 positive impact and certainly didn't offset losing Gordon.

That's certainly not all on Terry considering he's basically playing with the equivalent 2nd round pick level Talent across the team.

I really need to see a 10 gm stretch with Terry, Melo and GH all healthy, before I start screaming for a complete tear down. Hopefully that happens sooner than later.

Then again with gordon, considering that every time he falls down he misses a month of action, you just can't rely on him for anything.

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[fatlever]

I do wonder if JB could still get this current Squad playing at least a League average offensive efficiency. The ball movement has completely stopped under Clifford. I'm hoping that's just a symptom of personnel, but what if it isn't.

I saw a clip the other day of the Spurs young players and scrubs just the zipping the ball around in the half court, maybe eight passes before they found a cutter for a layup. The ball movement really reminded me of what we saw the last 2 years under JB. You don't have to have All Star level talent to be able to coach passing and ball movement. It's a pretty basic skill.

Is my feel-ometer just wrong on this? Does anyone have any stats about the number of passes per game this year compared to the last few years under jb?

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[fatlever]

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No one can agree on our three letter team abbreviation. Is it CHA CHO CLT? Mystery. Richards plays for CHO. Maso fir CHA. LOL

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[fatlever]

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[JDR720]

I do wonder if JB could still get this current Squad playing at least a League average offensive efficiency. The ball movement has completely stopped under Clifford. I'm hoping that's just a symptom of personnel, but what if it isn't.

I saw a clip the other day of the Spurs young players and scrubs just the zipping the ball around in the half court, maybe eight passes before they found a cutter for a layup. The ball movement really reminded me of what we saw the last 2 years under JB. You don't have to have All Star level talent to be able to coach passing and ball movement. It's a pretty basic skill.

Is my feel-ometer just wrong on this? Does anyone have any stats about the number of passes per game this year compared to the last few years under jb?

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Just under 300 this year, which is actually very high. 301 last year.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/passing?dir=D&sort=PASSES_MADE

However, our points created by assists are down by 10. 73 last year (#1) to 64 this year, which is middling.

So, we're passing it about the same, but it's not as effective. I put most of that on Melo not playing.

[Braggins]

Their passes per game are down from last season but still ranked 8th overall. There is a pretty big jump between them and the 6/7 teams (Denver and San Antonio).

[amcoolio]

Here's a stat: We are officially last in the East and have the best odds for the lottery

[JDR720]

This season could be a blessing in disguise if things go right.

- Get a top 3 pick, hopefully top 2.
- Miles is suspended, but comes back next year.
- Melo gets healthy.

Melo/Miles/Wem or Scoot is the best "Big 3" we've ever had.

[yosemiteben]

17th in pace and continuing to drop.

Old dogs, new tricks

Well, considering that in 2019-20 (when we also didn't have Melo or Hayward but did have Rozier and Graham) we were dead last in pace under JB, seems like you can't ignore talent level and missing pieces when you judge offensive philosophy and preferences.

[yosemiteben]

I didn't want to tank this season because I want Melo to learn good habits, and particularly good defensive habits, under a disciplined coach. Given the trainwreck of injuries, I'm losing faith that that's possible and I'm definitely nearing if not at the point of no return in throwing in the towel on the season.

I'm just not super excited about a capped 14% chance at Wemby, so I'm more skeptical of the upside to a tank and I'm very worried that we'll tank and wind up with a top 3 pick in a draft with a unicorn and am apparently top tier PG and a perception of a fall off after that.

[SWedd523]

17th in pace and continuing to drop.

Old dogs, new tricks

Well, considering that in 2019-20 (when we also didn't have Melo or Hayward but did have Rozier and Graham) we were dead last in pace under JB, seems like you can't ignore talent level and missing pieces when you judge offensive philosophy and preferences.

I'll admit my surprise to you initially being the one defending Cliff as adapting to the times and using Pace as proof and now pivoting away from it when it proves to be small sample size fools gold

[nature_boyy97]

This season could be a blessing in disguise if things go right.

- Get a top 3 pick, hopefully top 2.
- Miles is suspended, but comes back next year.
- Melo gets healthy.

Melo/Miles/Wem or Scoot is the best "Big 3" we've ever had.

There's the silver lining.

For the record I expect us to draft 3rd or 4th. Melo/Miles/Amen, we like that?

[yosemiteben]

17th in pace and continuing to drop.

Old dogs, new tricks

Well, considering that in 2019-20 (when we also didn't have Melo or Hayward but did have Rozier and Graham) we were dead last in pace under JB, seems like you can't ignore talent level and missing pieces when you judge offensive philosophy and preferences.

I'll admit my surprise to you initially being the one defending Cliff as adapting to the times and using Pace as proof and now pivoting away from it when it proves to be small sample size fools gold

I'm saying judge philosophies based on what teams do at full strength, not when half their rotation and almost all of their primary ball handlers are missing.

It really does seem like you're trolling on this. Do you not agree that we are missing a bunch of primary ballhandlers? Do you not agree that the trend of pace and general offensive efficiency dipping as ball handlers and creators go out is to be expected and not the result of true coaching preferences emerging?

I just don't understand how, after we go through all these injuries and are missing a bunch of key guys and see the negative impact that has on how we play, you can look at the product and say "see, this is how Cliff wants to play."

[SWedd523]

Well, considering that in 2019-20 (when we also didn't have Melo or Hayward but did have Rozier and Graham) we were dead last in pace under JB, seems like you can't ignore talent level and missing pieces when you judge offensive philosophy and preferences.

I'll admit my surprise to you initially being the one defending Cliff as adapting to the times and using Pace as proof and now pivoting away from it when it proves to be small sample size fools gold

I'm saying judge philosophies based on what teams do at full strength, not when half their rotation and almost all of their primary ball handlers are missing.

Then why were you repeatedly updating the team stats at the beginning of the season trying to show that Cliff has turned a new leaf?

It really does seem like you're trolling on this. Do you not agree that we are missing a bunch of primary ballhandlers? Do you not agree that the trend of pace and general offensive efficiency dipping as ball handlers and creators go out is to be expected and not the result of true coaching preferences emerging?

I just don't understand how, after we go through all these injuries and are missing a bunch of key guys and see the negative impact that has on how we play, you can look at the product and say "see, this is how Cliff wants to play."

I'm trolling? Do you not see the disconnect between what you've been trying to argue?

First: "See guys, Cliff is learning! The team is playing at a high pace!"

Now (with the pace dropping off a cliff): "Wait wait wait, we can't judge until they're at full strength"

I guess maybe I'm missing your point? You've been defending him from the (re)start and he really just appears to be more of the same. Am I the crazy one for thinking the the 61yo with 40 years of coaching experience is pretty well set in his philosophy at this point?

[yosemiteben]

I'll admit my surprise to you initially being the one defending Cliff as adapting to the times and using Pace as proof and now pivoting away from it when it proves to be small sample size fools gold

I'm saying judge philosophies based on what teams do at full strength, not when half their rotation and almost all of their primary ball handlers are missing.

Then why were you repeatedly updating the team stats at the beginning of the season trying to show that Cliff has turned a new leaf?

Because we weren't missing Gordo, Terry, and DSJ. Because we were less short handed and had a better sense of how we wanted to play.

It really does seem like you're trolling on this. Do you not agree that we are missing a bunch of primary ballhandlers? Do you not agree that the trend of pace and general offensive efficiency dipping as ball handlers and creators go out is to be expected and not the result of true coaching preferences emerging?

I just don't understand how, after we go through all these injuries and are missing a bunch of key guys and see the negative impact that has on how we play, you can look at the product and say "see, this is how Cliff wants to play."

I'm trolling? Do you not see the disconnect between what you've been trying to argue?

First: "See guys, Cliff is learning! The team is playing at a high pace!"

Now (with the pace dropping off a cliff): "Wait wait wait, we can't judge until they're at full strength"

I guess maybe I'm missing your point? You've been defending him from the (re)start and he really just appears to be more of the same. Am I the crazy one for thinking the the 61yo with 40 years of coaching experience is pretty well set in his philosophy at this point?

It's fair that maybe I'm not making my point well, and I see what you're saying here. Let me give it a new go.

I personally think Cliff is more adaptable in terms of big picture game plan and principles on a season by season basis than he is given credit for. I think he takes inventory of his team in the off-season and customizes his game plan based on those strengths, and then he creates goals and philosophies for how we should play based on that assessment. In my view this is best exemplified by how different our 2013-14 playoff team was from our 2015-16 team in terms of pace, shot location, ball movement, etc.

He has identified that his approach is to establish clear bench marks for expectations, and he is very deliberate in how he chooses to integrate roles into his rotation. That both lends itself to guys knowing what is expected of them (a key Cliff principle), but it also does contribute to rigid rotations and a general lack of willingness to just roll the dice and try new things. In my view he's kind of the anti-JB when it comes to that, which I think has pros and cons to it and I don't have a problem with people taking issue there.

I think coming into this season Cliff saw a fast paced, movement oriented offense that was working and he wanted to keep it. I also think he saw a non-functional defense that substituted junk sets for anything resembling discipline and sound fundamentals, and he knew he needed to fix the defense without changing our offensive identity. He specifically identified that these were his goals coming into the season.

I think what we saw early on was more representative of these goals he identified in the off-season, but even then we still didn't see the full manifestation of it without Melo. He is such a huge part of our offensive identity, and I also think the easiest way to judge Cliff's intent for how we would play would be to see how he uses Melo.

Even without Melo, we initially saw an offensive style that looked a whole lot like last season. I get saying that was just flukey or the result of small sample size, but I think if Cliff was preaching slow it down, half court based offense where we control the defensive boards, which is the stereotype of how he wants to play, we would have seen an indication early on that was how we wanted to play from the beginning. That was very much not the case. We clearly had a defensive identity, and I think we clearly had an offensive identity. For all Cliff's flaws, getting guys to play the way he wants to play has never been one of them.

I think as guys dropped, it just became harder to implement the game plan because a fast paced, movement oriented offense depends on having creators and facilitators and all our key offensive facilitators have missed varying amounts of time. Our half court stabilizers and our pace pushers are missing, and naturally that leads to a drop in our assist numbers and pace and a general gumming up of our offense.

I very much don't believe that Cliff is playing more like he wants to as he loses more of our key offensive pieces. The skill set of our best players fits the characteristics of the offense we saw at the beginning of the season, and I believe that is what we want to play like when we are healthy. It's just literally impossible to play like that now when we don't have the offensive weapons to carry it out.

[amcoolio]

This season could be a blessing in disguise if things go right.

- Get a top 3 pick, hopefully top 2.
- Miles is suspended, but comes back next year.
- Melo gets healthy.

Melo/Miles/Wem or Scoot is the best "Big 3" we've ever had.

There's the silver lining.

For the record I expect us to draft 3rd or 4th. Melo/Miles/Amen, we like that?

While disappointing, sometimes its not a bad thing, like Scottie Barnes or Ben Mathurin coming out of nowhere. Just up to us drafting well and not taking a flawed player and trying to teach him like Bouknight or Kai Jones

[luciano-davidwesley]

I didn't want to tank this season because I want Melo to learn good habits, and particularly good defensive habits, under a disciplined coach. Given the trainwreck of injuries, I'm losing faith that that's possible and I'm definitely nearing if not at the point of no return in throwing in the towel on the season.

I'm just not super excited about a capped 14% chance at Wemby, so I'm more skeptical of the upside to a tank and I'm very worried that we'll tank and wind up with a top 3 pick in a draft with a unicorn and am apparently top tier PG and a perception of a fall off after that.

We've got a bunch of immature criminals on the roster and winning 38 games isn't going to instill them with a winning mentality. Cleaning house might help though.

[yosemiteben]

I didn't want to tank this season because I want Melo to learn good habits, and particularly good defensive habits, under a disciplined coach. Given the trainwreck of injuries, I'm losing faith that that's possible and I'm definitely nearing if not at the point of no return in throwing in the towel on the season.

I'm just not super excited about a capped 14% chance at Wemby, so I'm more skeptical of the upside to a tank and I'm very worried that we'll tank and wind up with a top 3 pick in a draft with a unicorn and am apparently top tier PG and a perception of a fall off after that.

We've got a bunch of immature criminals on the roster and winning 38 games isn't going to instill them with a winning mentality. Cleaning house might help though.

This doesn't really make sense to me, the only person on our roster you could even possibly be referring to is Bouk, and we don't need to tank to deal with him.