Brad Stevens Thread – Finding The Way

[MagicBagley18]

There's zero way the Celtics, who are over the luxury tax, could've gotten compensated by a team wanting to dump an expiring contract. Please stop. Yes, Ainge drafted Smart, Tatum and Jaylen Brown. Smart and Jaylen were particularly bold picks, although he should've gotten Siakam if he was going really bold. But at the end of the day Ainge was horrible at team construction. Brad took a team that was giving heavy minutes to 2nd year Langford, Semi Ojeleye, Jeff Teague and Enes Freedom and built a solid rotation that's strong from 1-9, not 1-4 then garbage. And 10-15 and 2 ways are all guys who may have long term future at the team. There is no question in my mind that Brad has been light years ahead of Ainge, whose claim to fame is basically tanking then getting lucky off of Brooklyn's unexpected demise.

If you don't trade for White, of course there is. We had a $17m trade exception. There were a dozen threads here about using it. Off the top of my head, the Knicks gave up a couple of 2nd rounders and $6m to Detroit to dump salary for Brunson. There were threads here about that too. Happy to link them if you want.

At this point, not even sure what we are debating other than you making absolutist claims that are demonstrably false.

Durant trade was never happening with or without that tpe. I don’t think Brooklyn was ever serious. Do agree ainge deserves most of the credit.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Danny put the core in place , but that leaves you less room to maneuver, and Ainge has always been bad at putting the finishing touches on a roster, goes back to big 3 era. 07-08 was the only season he did it.

Giddens, Jermaine O’Neal, Patrick O’Bryant, Jason Terry, Courtney Lee, Tristan Thompson..

Brad has nailed that last phase of roster building, and he’s done it with very few assets. Kemba’s deadweight contract turned into Horford, he turned a taxpayer MLE (Schroeder) and Nesmith into Brogdon, a modest TPE into JRich into White, and he did it while getting under the luxury tax last year.

Plus Danny had a back bench filled out with guys like Carsen Edwards and Semi Ojeleye. Hauser was a Brad signing, Vonleh’s a nice pickup, Kornet has stabilized his career here..

[Captain_Caveman]

Danny put the core in place , but that leaves you less room to maneuver, and Ainge has always been bad at putting the finishing touches on a roster, goes back to big 3 era. 07-08 was the only season he did it.

Giddens, Jermaine O’Neal, Patrick O’Bryant, Jason Terry, Courtney Lee, Tristan Thompson..

Brad has nailed that last phase of roster building, and he’s done it with very few assets. Kemba’s deadweight contract turned into Horford, he turned a taxpayer MLE (Schroeder) and Nesmith into Brogdon, a modest TPE into JRich into White, and he did it while getting under the luxury tax last year.

Plus Danny had a back bench filled out with guys like Carsen Edwards and Semi Ojeleye. Hauser was a Brad signing, Vonleh’s a nice pickup, Kornet has stabilized his career here..

Ainge left Brad with all of our future picks, and several young prospects. Cap situation wasn’t bad either.

[Captain_Caveman]

Not really. Without Derrick White we don't have the salary to match for KD. And in any case the issue with KD trade offer was the Nets didn't want to trade KD in the first place.
We don't have to worry about giving up a Timelord because we already have a Timelord.
What would be even worse is if we purposefully threw away the contention window because of some outside chance that our picks would become stars. It's like, when you are hungry and there's no food, you don't spend your $100 to buy a bunch of lottery tickets and tell yourself oh what would I do if the ticket turned out to be the jackpot. People buying lottery tickets lose 100% of the time and people selling lottery tickets win 100% of the time. It is extremely valuable to be able to stabilize your assets.

You don't have to take the examples THAT literally, but since you did, I would just point out that (a) without the White trade, we could have just used the TPE to get cap fodder for KD, and that (b) a second Timelord would actually be pretty cool, especially given how injury prone the first one is.

Again, not really going against Brad's overall strategy, just pointing out that he did in fact give up some significant draft capitol just to get some role players, and that this is not without risk. Not only do we have a pretty solid recent record of drafting non-lottery players, punting away picks has cost us Bane, Thybulle, and Sengun just in the last few years alone.

I’ll admit to nit picking but it was Ainge who traded away nr 30 aka Bane to dump kanter to duck the tax. Thybulle idc about. Pick 16 is significant, I don’t care for sengun but insert herbert Jones there and that looks different. Still the kemba dump/Horford acquisition was a necessary move.

Yes, it was Ainge that dumped the Thybulle and Bane picks. Sorry if that was not clear. Just highlighting that there are potential opportunity costs here to people who are saying that was absolutely not the case.

I’m fine with the Horford and Brogdon moves, and think the swap for White should have been more protected.

[Fencer reregistered]

There's zero way the Celtics, who are over the luxury tax, could've gotten compensated by a team wanting to dump an expiring contract. Please stop. Yes, Ainge drafted Smart, Tatum and Jaylen Brown. Smart and Jaylen were particularly bold picks, although he should've gotten Siakam if he was going really bold. But at the end of the day Ainge was horrible at team construction. Brad took a team that was giving heavy minutes to 2nd year Langford, Semi Ojeleye, Jeff Teague and Enes Freedom and built a solid rotation that's strong from 1-9, not 1-4 then garbage. And 10-15 and 2 ways are all guys who may have long term future at the team. There is no question in my mind that Brad has been light years ahead of Ainge, whose claim to fame is basically tanking then getting lucky off of Brooklyn's unexpected demise.

Ainge also drafted both Williamses.

[Slax]

Both have done well, but 90% of this was Ainge building the core, and 10% Brad spending picks like a drunken sailor while going waaaaay into the tax to field a decent supporting cast.

I mean...

Tatum (Ainge)
Jaylen (Ainge)
Smart (Ainge)
Timelord (Ainge)
Grant (Ainge)
Horford (Brad, but also Ainge)

Brad spent one pick each to land Horford and Brogdon, and one plus a possibly killer swap to land White.

On the one hand, I agree that most of the core here is just a bunch of Ainge picks, and Ainge deserves the bulk of the credit for assembling the roster in the first place. But also I think there's some revisionism here, in that nobody was really sitting here before the Horford trade in the 2021 offseason saying that we had a championship-level core in place and that the only things separating us from becoming a serious contender were a few roleplayers and a year or two of development. I strongly believe that the hindsight sense that it was basically inevitable that the core would have blossomed as long as Brad didn't badly **** it up is wrong.

The contemporary anxiety about the poor team culture, bad habits, Kemba's injury and contract, and upcoming free agency crunch with Smart and Rob were all justified and warranted. They just all got averted because of fixes made to the team after Ainge left. Horford and Ime both did a lot to right the ship and recreate a positive team culture and improve the quality of the team before everything had a chance to go to ****. If we instead had two straight years of mediocrity and acrimony, there's a high likelihood we would have seen players leaving in free agency or demanding trades to get to better situations. We've seen this play out with other teams before, for example with the Sixers who absolutely had a championship-level roster and asset base after they got Jimmy Butler, but couldn't keep that team together because everybody hated each other and wanted out. Not saying it was inevitable that that would have happened to us too, but it's not really hard to imagine it could have.

Which is all to say, I think Ainge should get most of the credit for building the core, but Brad should get a ton of credit for stabilizing the team. It wasn't just a straightforward spend-picks-to-get-good-roleplayers-and-marginally-improve thing. He specifically made good choices that allowed the team to flourish in a pretty trying moment.

[165bows]

Both have done well, but 90% of this was Ainge building the core, and 10% Brad spending picks like a drunken sailor while going waaaaay into the tax to field a decent supporting cast.

I mean...

Tatum (Ainge)
Jaylen (Ainge)
Smart (Ainge)
Timelord (Ainge)
Grant (Ainge)
Horford (Brad, but also Ainge)

Brad spent one pick each to land Horford and Brogdon, and one plus a possibly killer swap to land White.

On the one hand, I agree that most of the core here is just a bunch of Ainge picks, and Ainge deserves the bulk of the credit for assembling the roster in the first place. But also I think there's some revisionism here, in that nobody was really sitting here before the Horford trade in the 2021 offseason saying that we had a championship-level core in place and that the only things separating us from becoming a serious contender were a few roleplayers and a year or two of development. I strongly believe that the hindsight sense that it was basically inevitable that the core would have blossomed as long as Brad didn't badly **** it up is wrong.

The contemporary anxiety about the poor team culture, bad habits, Kemba's injury and contract, and upcoming free agency crunch with Smart and Rob were all justified and warranted. They just all got averted because of fixes made to the team after Ainge left. Horford and Ime both did a lot to right the ship and recreate a positive team culture and improve the quality of the team before everything had a chance to go to ****. If we instead had two straight years of mediocrity and acrimony, there's a high likelihood we would have seen players leaving in free agency or demanding trades to get to better situations. We've seen this play out with other teams before, for example with the Sixers who absolutely had a championship-level roster and asset base after they got Jimmy Butler, but couldn't keep that team together because everybody hated each other and wanted out. Not saying it was inevitable that that would have happened to us too, but it's not really hard to imagine it could have.

Which is all to say, I think Ainge should get most of the credit for building the core, but Brad should get a ton of credit for stabilizing the team. It wasn't just a straightforward spend-picks-to-get-good-roleplayers-and-marginally-improve thing. He specifically made good choices that allowed the team to flourish in a pretty trying moment.

Lot of smart takes in both of these posts imo. Young super solid core with a good but not super deep bench. Brad's on deck to see if he can finish rounding it out and replenish the front court (and hell back court will be on deck right after that lol).

[Slax]

Both have done well, but 90% of this was Ainge building the core, and 10% Brad spending picks like a drunken sailor while going waaaaay into the tax to field a decent supporting cast.

I mean...

Tatum (Ainge)
Jaylen (Ainge)
Smart (Ainge)
Timelord (Ainge)
Grant (Ainge)
Horford (Brad, but also Ainge)

Brad spent one pick each to land Horford and Brogdon, and one plus a possibly killer swap to land White.

On the one hand, I agree that most of the core here is just a bunch of Ainge picks, and Ainge deserves the bulk of the credit for assembling the roster in the first place. But also I think there's some revisionism here, in that nobody was really sitting here before the Horford trade in the 2021 offseason saying that we had a championship-level core in place and that the only things separating us from becoming a serious contender were a few roleplayers and a year or two of development. I strongly believe that the hindsight sense that it was basically inevitable that the core would have blossomed as long as Brad didn't badly **** it up is wrong.

The contemporary anxiety about the poor team culture, bad habits, Kemba's injury and contract, and upcoming free agency crunch with Smart and Rob were all justified and warranted. They just all got averted because of fixes made to the team after Ainge left. Horford and Ime both did a lot to right the ship and recreate a positive team culture and improve the quality of the team before everything had a chance to go to ****. If we instead had two straight years of mediocrity and acrimony, there's a high likelihood we would have seen players leaving in free agency or demanding trades to get to better situations. We've seen this play out with other teams before, for example with the Sixers who absolutely had a championship-level roster and asset base after they got Jimmy Butler, but couldn't keep that team together because everybody hated each other and wanted out. Not saying it was inevitable that that would have happened to us too, but it's not really hard to imagine it could have.

Which is all to say, I think Ainge should get most of the credit for building the core, but Brad should get a ton of credit for stabilizing the team. It wasn't just a straightforward spend-picks-to-get-good-roleplayers-and-marginally-improve thing. He specifically made good choices that allowed the team to flourish in a pretty trying moment.

Lot of smart takes in both of these posts imo. Young super solid core with a good but not super deep bench. Brad's on deck to see if he can finish rounding it out and replenish the front court (and hell back court will be on deck right after that lol).

Yeah replacing some of Horford's productivity as he ages out is going to be an interesting challenge going forward.

[MagicBagley18]

Think it’s also worth pointing out that while brad deserves all his flowers for making the trade - there may not be a horford trade to make had he not played here to begin with. Okc worked with horford to get him to a place he would be comfortable going to the best they could.

Horford wanted to come back here because he loved playing here. Was our biggest free agency signing ever at that point by ainge

[hugepatsfan]

If were going to give Ainge credit for Horford (which we should) we also have to give blame for the circumstance that led to Horford - Kemba. Because the first round pick we gave up in that trade wasn’t really for Horford, it was to offload Kemba. OKC would have given him away for a ham sandwich. The reason they got the 1st from us was for taking on Kemba, which was an Ainge decision.

Overall though, I agree with the point that Stevens gets to do the “easy” part. Ainge put a great core in place and now Stevens gets to top it off with role players. I do give him credit though - he’s picked a bunch of tremendous fits as role players, both skill set and personality wise. He’s held out for multi year guys which reduced the sting of giving up picks. He’s made practice decisions to sign guys when it was far from consensus (Smart, Rob).

It’s easy to call this the “easy” part, but we’ve seen tons of teams sputter out here. Ainge himself really struggled to ever put together the right supporting cast for the big 3. Morey in HOU struggled with final touches. Presti couldn’t get over the hump in OKC. This stage of team building is far from a layup. Getting the core is the first part but this stuff matters too. Brad looks to be doing a tremendous job of it.

[MagicBagley18]

If were going to give Ainge credit for Horford (which we should) we also have to give blame for the circumstance that led to Horford - Kemba. Because the first round pick we gave up in that trade wasn’t really for Horford, it was to offload Kemba. OKC would have given him away for a ham sandwich. The reason they got the 1st from us was for taking on Kemba, which was an Ainge decision.

Overall though, I agree with the point that Stevens gets to do the “easy” part. Ainge put a great core in place and now Stevens gets to top it off with role players. I do give him credit though - he’s picked a bunch of tremendous fits as role players, both skill set and personality wise. He’s held out for multi year guys which reduced the sting of giving up picks. He’s made practice decisions to sign guys when it was far from consensus (Smart, Rob).

It’s easy to call this the “easy” part, but we’ve seen tons of teams sputter out here. Ainge himself really struggled to ever put together the right supporting cast for the big 3. Morey in HOU struggled with final touches. Presti couldn’t get over the hump in OKC. This stage of team building is far from a layup. Getting the core is the first part but this stuff matters too. Brad looks to be doing a tremendous job of it.

That’s fine. I think most people realize singing kemba shouldn’t have happened. Doesn’t change the fact that he signed horford originally and because of that experience here al wares to come back. It also gave brad experience with al

[zoyathedestroya]

You guys are giving Brad and Danny too much credit. We all know they base all their decisions from discussions on this board.

[Slax]

Think it’s also worth pointing out that while brad deserves all his flowers for making the trade - there may not be a horford trade to make had he not played here to begin with. Okc worked with horford to get him to a place he would be comfortable going to the best they could.

Horford wanted to come back here because he loved playing here. Was our biggest free agency signing ever at that point by ainge

Ha, this is true, but if we get into that level of cause-effect, there's a whole can of worms that might be better left untouched when you consider that one of the bigger reasons he wanted to come here in free agency and got to experience a fun, successful, semi-competitive team in his first year with the team was IT. And I'm not even prepared to rehash that particular period of Danny's tenure with myself, much less with the forum.

[sam_I_am]

Ainge let Horford go and it’s easy to see now what a huge mistake that was. When we had a legit title shot in the bubble, Kemba was injured. If we had Al the Celtics probably win a title that year or at least make the finals.

[steefP2]

Ainge let Horford go and it’s easy to see now what a huge mistake that was. When we had a legit title shot in the bubble, Kemba was injured. If we had Al the Celtics probably win a title that year or at least make the finals.

I think letting go overstating it. Horford decided to leave when he knew kyrie was out. He would've come back if he had known about Kemba but had already committed.

[Feed Your Head]

Danny built the core, Brad added the necessary pieces.

Saying more is just over analyzing lol.

[Slax]

Ainge let Horford go and it’s easy to see now what a huge mistake that was. When we had a legit title shot in the bubble, Kemba was injured. If we had Al the Celtics probably win a title that year or at least make the finals.

I think letting go overstating it. Horford decided to leave when he knew kyrie was out. He would've come back if he had known about Kemba but had already committed.

Please, Al went to Philly because he desperately wanted to play on the same team as Josh Richardson. Why do you think he wanted to get back here so badly in 2021?

[Hal14]

Read on Twitter

[zoyathedestroya]

“It’s totally different. This is the first team I’ve been on in my career where one through five, they’re basically all playing the same positions. Everybody’s interchangeable; everybody can screen, everybody’s got handle, sometimes the guards are in the post, and then they’re guarding one through five is interchangeable. That’s the versatility and strength of this team.”

This has always been Brad's vision. Which never happened when he was coach cos we always had a tiny and/or defensively-challenged starting PG.

[Fencer reregistered]

The Celtics have 7 guys making >$10 million/year. Next year it will be 8, assuming Grant stays. (Al's sharp impending paycut will surely still leave him in that range.)

That turns out to be pretty unusual. The Clippers are the one team that's fully comparable. Dallas is an inferior version. Orlando and Utah are up there on the number of guys, but lack the high-end talent to really compare. Phoenix is in the discussion too.

Most other teams have chosen not to pay enough in cash and/or assets to construct a roster that deep.

And yes, it's really that deep. All 8 would be solid starters or better on many other teams. Hauser/Kornet/Pritchard is an impressive tier behind them. Blake just showed that even the 12-17 tier has its moments.