Who is in your GOAT tier?

[migya]

>Significant stats

>per, win shares

Pick one or you have to crown jokic, giannis amd luka as 3-way goat

Lebron's best years also score better in the postseason in those "signficant stats". So much so that you can take out the best year on record, by a landslide, by those stats and lebron comes out ahead.

Yeap lebron beats jordan in both plus-minus metrics and boxscore aggregates

You must be looking at something wise besides BR.

[PaulieWal]

Oh, back to trumpeting 2022/23 Russell Westbrook, 2010 Shaq, 2008/09 Ben Wallace, and 2020 Dwight Howard; absolutely love to see it.

May as well include 97 robert parish to talk how stacked jordan teams were

Except Dwight Howard, Ben Wallace, Shaq, Westbrook were as old as MJ and much younger than Parish who hardly even played. Shaq was even the all star MVP the year before.

You were literally warned a couple of days ago to stop these non-content strawmen arguments.

Warned for derailing the entire thread.

[falcolombardi]

Lebron's best years also score better in the postseason in those "signficant stats". So much so that you can take out the best year on record, by a landslide, by those stats and lebron comes out ahead.

Yeap lebron beats jordan in both plus-minus metrics and boxscore aggregates

Not really.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_career_p.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_career.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html

And this considering the rule changes that made it easier to score since 2005.

His playoffs boxscore is better

And his plus-minus is better in both reg season amd playoffs

[falcolombardi]

Personally i dont think jordanbulls comment was moderation worthy by itself as he didnt say anythingh offensive or attacking

Not a mod but wanted to give my opinion since it was an answer towards me

[OhayoKD]

Lebron's best years also score better in the postseason in those "signficant stats". So much so that you can take out the best year on record, by a landslide, by those stats and lebron comes out ahead.

Yeap lebron beats jordan in both plus-minus metrics and boxscore aggregates

You must be looking at something wise besides BR.

We're looking at the best years. Obviously given that jordan played vastly less and that his worst years as a basketball player weren't in the nba, jordan's career averages being higher don't indicate anything. Averages go down the more you play.

[migya]

Yeap lebron beats jordan in both plus-minus metrics and boxscore aggregates

You must be looking at something wise besides BR.

We're looking at the best years. Obviously given that jordan played vastly less and that his worst years as a basketball player weren't in the nba, jordan's career averages being higher don't indicate anything. Averages go down the more you play.

Best ten or twelve years is the best way to compare players at their best. Obviously that doesn't favor Lebron as he is further behind Jordan but it fits your point.

[ty 4191]

You both make valid claims, that's why I have Russell and Jordan just behind Chamberlain for best ever. Used to be Jordan.

I think you're the only other person (than I) that supports Wilt as GOAT left on this entire site.

Can you explain your Wilt as GOAT case? Also, why did you move Jordan out of #1 all time?

Thanks, man!

[HeartBreakKid]

You both make valid claims, that's why I have Russell and Jordan just behind Chamberlain for best ever. Used to be Jordan.

I think you're the only other person (than I) that supports Wilt as GOAT left on this entire site.

Can you explain your Wilt as GOAT case? Also, why did you move Jordan out of #1 all time?

Thanks, man!

Theres also this clipper fan whos username is Coast something.

99% of his threads are either about how great Wilt is or about how bad Russell was.

[falcolombardi]

You both make valid claims, that's why I have Russell and Jordan just behind Chamberlain for best ever. Used to be Jordan.

I think you're the only other person (than I) that supports Wilt as GOAT left on this entire site.

Can you explain your Wilt as GOAT case? Also, why did you move Jordan out of #1 all time?

Thanks, man!

Theres also this clipper fan whos username is Coast something.

99% of his threads are either about how great Wilt is or about how bad Russell was.

Coastalmaker? He was fairly high ok russel if i remember well, he was just even higher on wilt from what i remember

He had wilt and lebron as top 2 ever tier if i think

[migya]

You both make valid claims, that's why I have Russell and Jordan just behind Chamberlain for best ever. Used to be Jordan.

I think you're the only other person (than I) that supports Wilt as GOAT left on this entire site.

Can you explain your Wilt as GOAT case? Also, why did you move Jordan out of #1 all time?

Thanks, man!

From advanced stats, to boxscores, to the limited footage, to his pears talking about him, he was one of a kind. Noone has ever had the athletic abilities he had, strength, speed etc. He didn't have the talented teams Russell had or he'd have won alot himself. Chamberlain is criminally underrated, or wrongly rated, and largely forgotten. He was unlucky to be born twenty years earlier. In the 80s and 90s he'd have destroyed all. Imagine if he was allowed to barge through guys like Shaq was, he'd truthfully had averaged over 40pts for at least four seasons in his career and none would be talking about anyone else as possible GOAT, it would be about who is second.

[OhayoKD]

You must be looking at something wise besides BR.

We're looking at the best years. Obviously given that jordan played vastly less and that his worst years as a basketball player weren't in the nba, jordan's career averages being higher don't indicate anything. Averages go down the more you play.

Best ten or twelve years is the best way to compare players at their best. Obviously that doesn't favor Lebron as he is further behind Jordan but it fits your point.

Averaging their best scoring 10 year playoff stretches with
ws/48:
09-18 Lebron: .264.3
88-98 Jordan: .233

PER:
09-18 Lebron: 29.67
88-98 Jordan: 28.95

BPM:
88-98 Jordan: 11.74
09-18 Lebron: 10.83

So lebron comes out ahead in 2 out of 3 stats. Off course if we actually compare them at their best as opposed to pretending their worst years are indicative of where they were at their peak(lebron's 2 lowest scoring years come in this stretch), the gap widens for the first 2 and bpm flips.

Off course these are probably the worst metrics to use here because
A. they are the least predictive:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/
and
B. Box-score metrics skew towards offense

If we use metrics that account for defense better:

viewtopic.php?t=2212552

That's a paddlin.

If we use the most accurate metric, RAPM, Lebron has 5 different seasons that score signifcantly higher than Jordan's best data(+7.4 from 88):
viewtopic.php?f=64&p=100076062

Ditto for playoff on/off where, 16-18 Lebron come out ahead of jordan's best 3 year stretch which is tied with the best from shaq and curry

While we're at it, Tim Duncan's best years score higher in RAPM and playoff AUPM and playoff on/off.


And this is all with the artiifical caps that come with using adjusted plus minus data.

Using real-impact signals, mj's gap with lebron widens, but he's also stuck with a lot of unfavorable comparison to other non-lebron greats, including, most prominently, Russell

[falcolombardi]

We're looking at the best years. Obviously given that jordan played vastly less and that his worst years as a basketball player weren't in the nba, jordan's career averages being higher don't indicate anything. Averages go down the more you play.

Best ten or twelve years is the best way to compare players at their best. Obviously that doesn't favor Lebron as he is further behind Jordan but it fits your point.

Averaging their best scoring 10 year playoff stretches with
ws/48:
09-18 Lebron: .264.3
88-98 Jordan: .233

PER:
09-18 Lebron: 29.67
88-98 Jordan: 28.95

BPM:
88-98 Jordan: 11.74
09-18 Lebron: 10.83

So lebron comes out ahead in 2 out of 3 stats. Off course if we actually compare them at their best as opposed to pretending their worst years are indicative of where they were at their peak(lebron's 2 lowest scoring years come in this stretch), the gap widens for the first 2 and bpm flips.

Off course these are probably the worst metrics to use here because
A. they are the least predictive:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/
and
B. Box-score metrics skew towards offense

If we use metrics that account for defense better:

[url]viewtopic.phpt=2212552#:~:text=For%20Lebron%20ben%20uses%20%22average%20bpm%2Fpipm%22%20so%20i%27ll,bpm%20and%20%2B7%20in%20aupm%2C%20averaging%20to%20%2B7.35[/url]

That's a paddlin.

If we use the most accurate metric, RAPM, Lebron has 5 different seasons that score signifcantly higher than Jordan's best data(+7.4 from 88):
[url]viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2206246[/url]

Ditto for playoff on/off where, 16-18 Lebron come out ahead of jordan's best 3 year stretch which is tied with the best from shaq and curry

While we're at it, Tim Duncan's best years score higher in RAPM and playoff AUPM and playoff on/off.


And this is all with the artiifical caps that come with using adjusted plus minus data.

Using real-impact signals, mj's gap with lebron widens, but he's also stuck with a lot of unfavorable comparison to other non-lebron greats, including, most prominently, Russell

People often forget when comparing lebron and jordan career stats averages that lebron longevity brings his averages down,lebron prime is as long as jordan full bulls career after all

Is one area where lebron longevity is used against him

Comparing his career averages to shorter prime players as if they were the same amount of seasons

When is a equivalent comparision (best year vs best year, best 3 vs best 3, best 5 vs best 5) is a lot more fair (while still valuing the extra value provided by better longevity)

This is specially relevant for lebron, kareem and duncan

Their longevity sometimes overshadows how great their peaks were

[OhayoKD]

Best ten or twelve years is the best way to compare players at their best. Obviously that doesn't favor Lebron as he is further behind Jordan but it fits your point.

Averaging their best scoring 10 year playoff stretches with
ws/48:
09-18 Lebron: .264.3
88-98 Jordan: .233

PER:
09-18 Lebron: 29.67
88-98 Jordan: 28.95

BPM:
88-98 Jordan: 11.74
09-18 Lebron: 10.83

So lebron comes out ahead in 2 out of 3 stats. Off course if we actually compare them at their best as opposed to pretending their worst years are indicative of where they were at their peak(lebron's 2 lowest scoring years come in this stretch), the gap widens for the first 2 and bpm flips.

Off course these are probably the worst metrics to use here because
A. they are the least predictive:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/
and
B. Box-score metrics skew towards offense

If we use metrics that account for defense better:

[url]viewtopic.phpt=2212552#:~:text=For%20Lebron%20ben%20uses%20%22average%20bpm%2Fpipm%22%20so%20i%27ll,bpm%20and%20%2B7%20in%20aupm%2C%20averaging%20to%20%2B7.35[/url]

That's a paddlin.

If we use the most accurate metric, RAPM, Lebron has 5 different seasons that score signifcantly higher than Jordan's best data(+7.4 from 88):
[url]viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2206246[/url]

Ditto for playoff on/off where, 16-18 Lebron come out ahead of jordan's best 3 year stretch which is tied with the best from shaq and curry

While we're at it, Tim Duncan's best years score higher in RAPM and playoff AUPM and playoff on/off.


And this is all with the artiifical caps that come with using adjusted plus minus data.

Using real-impact signals, mj's gap with lebron widens, but he's also stuck with a lot of unfavorable comparison to other non-lebron greats, including, most prominently, Russell

People often forget when comparing lebron and jordan career stats averages that lebron longevity brings his averages down,lebron prime is as long as jordan full bulls career after all

Is one area where lebron longevity is used against him

Comparing his career averages to shorter prime players as if they were the same amount of seasons

When is a equivalent comparision (best year vs best year, best 3 vs best 3, best 5 vs best 5) is a lot more fair (while still valuing the extra value provided by better longevity)

This is specially relevant for lebron, kareem and duncan

Their longevity sometimes overshadows how great their peaks were

Yeah duncan probably deserves a shout here.

Kareem is harder to guage due to a lack of data, but he has a legiitmate shout as the goat scorer for prime/peak and career, is one of the lead creators, and is an impactful defender. And his impact signals in a variety of contexts are very, very strong, even in a comparison with allegdely better peaks like MJ, Shaq, or Curry

[OhayoKD]

Personally i dont think jordanbulls comment was moderation worthy by itself as he didnt say anythingh offensive or attacking

Not a mod but wanted to give my opinion since it was an answer towards me

I'll second that.

We all need some jordanbull in our life

[migya]

We're looking at the best years. Obviously given that jordan played vastly less and that his worst years as a basketball player weren't in the nba, jordan's career averages being higher don't indicate anything. Averages go down the more you play.

Best ten or twelve years is the best way to compare players at their best. Obviously that doesn't favor Lebron as he is further behind Jordan but it fits your point.

Averaging their best scoring 10 year playoff stretches with
ws/48:
09-18 Lebron: .264.3
88-98 Jordan: .233

PER:
09-18 Lebron: 29.67
88-98 Jordan: 28.95

BPM:
88-98 Jordan: 11.74
09-18 Lebron: 10.83

So lebron comes out ahead in 2 out of 3 stats. Off course if we actually compare them at their best as opposed to pretending their worst years are indicative of where they were at their peak(lebron's 2 lowest scoring years come in this stretch), the gap widens for the first 2 and bpm flips.

Off course these are probably the worst metrics to use here because
A. they are the least predictive:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/
and
B. Box-score metrics skew towards offense

If we use metrics that account for defense better:

viewtopic.php?t=2212552

That's a paddlin.

If we use the most accurate metric, RAPM, Lebron has 5 different seasons that score signifcantly higher than Jordan's best data(+7.4 from 88):
viewtopic.php?f=64&p=100076062

Ditto for playoff on/off where, 16-18 Lebron come out ahead of jordan's best 3 year stretch which is tied with the best from shaq and curry

While we're at it, Tim Duncan's best years score higher in RAPM and playoff AUPM and playoff on/off.


And this is all with the artiifical caps that come with using adjusted plus minus data.

Using real-impact signals, mj's gap with lebron widens, but he's also stuck with a lot of unfavorable comparison to other non-lebron greats, including, most prominently, Russell

Like most Lebron lovers you didn't show the right numbers and you didn't give fair comparison.


Best ten seasons, have to use consecutive seasons on BR, so can't exclude Jordan's 95, only played a month after two year layoff, playoffs.

Playoffs:
ws/48:
Jordan 89-98 - .262
Lebron 09-18 - .260

PER:
89-98 Jordan: 28.7
09-18 Lebron: 29.4

BPM:
89-98 Jordan: 11.1
09-18 Lebron: 10.6

Jordan has two of the three and the softer, less physical era Lebron's in makes a big difference because your efficiency is easier to be higher when you are getting roughed up when trying to get off your shots.

Ludicrous to think Lebron was ever a better defender than Jordan.

[falcolombardi]

Best ten or twelve years is the best way to compare players at their best. Obviously that doesn't favor Lebron as he is further behind Jordan but it fits your point.

Averaging their best scoring 10 year playoff stretches with
ws/48:
09-18 Lebron: .264.3
88-98 Jordan: .233

PER:
09-18 Lebron: 29.67
88-98 Jordan: 28.95

BPM:
88-98 Jordan: 11.74
09-18 Lebron: 10.83

So lebron comes out ahead in 2 out of 3 stats. Off course if we actually compare them at their best as opposed to pretending their worst years are indicative of where they were at their peak(lebron's 2 lowest scoring years come in this stretch), the gap widens for the first 2 and bpm flips.

Off course these are probably the worst metrics to use here because
A. they are the least predictive:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/
and
B. Box-score metrics skew towards offense

If we use metrics that account for defense better:

viewtopic.php?t=2212552

That's a paddlin.

If we use the most accurate metric, RAPM, Lebron has 5 different seasons that score signifcantly higher than Jordan's best data(+7.4 from 88):
viewtopic.php?f=64&p=100076062

Ditto for playoff on/off where, 16-18 Lebron come out ahead of jordan's best 3 year stretch which is tied with the best from shaq and curry

While we're at it, Tim Duncan's best years score higher in RAPM and playoff AUPM and playoff on/off.


And this is all with the artiifical caps that come with using adjusted plus minus data.

Using real-impact signals, mj's gap with lebron widens, but he's also stuck with a lot of unfavorable comparison to other non-lebron greats, including, most prominently, Russell

Like most Lebron lovers you didn't show the right numbers and you didn't give fair comparison.


Best ten seasons, have to use consecutive seasons on BR, so can't exclude Jordan's 95, only played a month after two year layoff, playoffs.

Playoffs:
ws/48:
Jordan 89-98 - .262
Lebron 09-18 - .260

PER:
89-98 Jordan: 28.7
09-18 Lebron: 29.4

BPM:
89-98 Jordan: 11.1
09-18 Lebron: 10.6

Jordan has two of the three and the softer, less physical era Lebron's in makes a big difference because your efficiency is easier to be higher when you are getting roughed up when trying to get off your shots.

Ludicrous to think Lebron was ever a better defender than Jordan.

Lebron>jordan defensively

[AEnigma]

Best ten or twelve years is the best way to compare players at their best. Obviously that doesn't favor Lebron as he is further behind Jordan but it fits your point.

Averaging their best scoring 10 year playoff stretches with
ws/48:
09-18 Lebron: .264.3
88-98 Jordan: .233

PER:
09-18 Lebron: 29.67
88-98 Jordan: 28.95

BPM:
88-98 Jordan: 11.74
09-18 Lebron: 10.83

So lebron comes out ahead in 2 out of 3 stats. Off course if we actually compare them at their best as opposed to pretending their worst years are indicative of where they were at their peak(lebron's 2 lowest scoring years come in this stretch), the gap widens for the first 2 and bpm flips.

Off course these are probably the worst metrics to use here because
A. they are the least predictive:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/
and
B. Box-score metrics skew towards offense

If we use metrics that account for defense better:

viewtopic.php?t=2212552

That's a paddlin.

If we use the most accurate metric, RAPM, Lebron has 5 different seasons that score signifcantly higher than Jordan's best data(+7.4 from 88):
viewtopic.php?f=64&p=100076062

Ditto for playoff on/off where, 16-18 Lebron come out ahead of jordan's best 3 year stretch which is tied with the best from shaq and curry

While we're at it, Tim Duncan's best years score higher in RAPM and playoff AUPM and playoff on/off.


And this is all with the artiifical caps that come with using adjusted plus minus data.

Using real-impact signals, mj's gap with lebron widens, but he's also stuck with a lot of unfavorable comparison to other non-lebron greats, including, most prominently, Russell

Like most Lebron lovers you didn't show the right numbers and you didn't give fair comparison.

Like most Jordan fanatics you did not bother to read the argument being made and assume that any disadvantages for Jordan are “unfair”.

To be clear, he talked about best seasons but generously capitulated to just doing specific consecutive stretches, and you are here going nuh uh you have to use basketball-reference to skew to the highest minute postseasons to make it fair!!!

Best ten seasons, have to use consecutive seasons on BR,

That is not what best means, and you transparently cut out 1988 (making it nine postseasons for Jordan…) just to give Jordan a better WS/48. Even though absolutely no one takes 1988 over 1998.

We could do twelve seasons, as you initially suggested, and that would give both of them an equal number of postseasons… ah, but then those basketball-reference win share averages would again lean back to Lebron, and we cannot have that.

so can't exclude Jordan's 95, only played a month after two year layoff, playoffs.

So… not one of his best.

the softer, less physical era Lebron's in

Yeah, poor Jordan, had to deal with man coverage from Craig Ehlo and Gerald Wilkins.

makes a big difference because your efficiency is easier to be higher when you are getting roughed up when trying to get off your shots.

Lebron, famous for shying from contact.

Ludicrous to think Lebron was ever a better defender than Jordan.

Why, because of steals per game? Literally no measure of defensive impact favours Jordan — although predictably you ignore those entirely. Jordan’s teams barely missed him defensively; meanwhile, Lebron spent a decade as his team’s top defender. Turns out being big and one of the league’s smartest help defenders matters a lot more than squaring up 1 on 1 with opposing wings.

Christ, how are we even supposed to have conversations with the type of “fans” who are this incapable of watching half the activity on the court.

[OhayoKD]

Best ten or twelve years is the best way to compare players at their best. Obviously that doesn't favor Lebron as he is further behind Jordan but it fits your point.

Averaging their best scoring 10 year playoff stretches with
ws/48:
09-18 Lebron: .264.3
88-98 Jordan: .233

PER:
09-18 Lebron: 29.67
88-98 Jordan: 28.95

BPM:
88-98 Jordan: 11.74
09-18 Lebron: 10.83

So lebron comes out ahead in 2 out of 3 stats. Off course if we actually compare them at their best as opposed to pretending their worst years are indicative of where they were at their peak(lebron's 2 lowest scoring years come in this stretch), the gap widens for the first 2 and bpm flips.

Off course these are probably the worst metrics to use here because
A. they are the least predictive:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/
and
B. Box-score metrics skew towards offense

If we use metrics that account for defense better:

viewtopic.php?t=2212552

That's a paddlin.

If we use the most accurate metric, RAPM, Lebron has 5 different seasons that score signifcantly higher than Jordan's best data(+7.4 from 88):
viewtopic.php?f=64&p=100076062

Ditto for playoff on/off where, 16-18 Lebron come out ahead of jordan's best 3 year stretch which is tied with the best from shaq and curry

While we're at it, Tim Duncan's best years score higher in RAPM and playoff AUPM and playoff on/off.


And this is all with the artiifical caps that come with using adjusted plus minus data.

Using real-impact signals, mj's gap with lebron widens, but he's also stuck with a lot of unfavorable comparison to other non-lebron greats, including, most prominently, Russell

Like most Lebron lovers you didn't show the right numbers and you didn't give fair comparison.


Best ten seasons, have to use consecutive seasons on BR, so can't exclude Jordan's 95, only played a month after two year layoff, playoffs.

I used the highest scores from the highest scoring 10 season stretch. I averaged the seasons because otherwise it inherently skews towards longer runs.

Reagrdless. even using your method, if you compare 10 postseasons to 10 postseasons as opposed to dropping 88 and comparing 10 postseaons to 9 postseasons, MJ's ws/48 ends up tied which would mean they split the metrics.

If I was to use the 10 "best " years, the gap would widen considerably. We can drop the weakest years if you want, but again, that will favor lebron:

BPM: LBJ, 17.7, 12.7, 11.5 MJ,14.6, 13.7, 12.1
ws/48: LBJ, .399, .294, .269 MJ, .333, .3, .284
PER: LBJ, 37.4, 32.2, 31.0 MJ, 32, 31.7, 30.1
VORP: LBJ, 3.4, 3.1, 3.0 MJ, 2.9, 2.8, 2.7

12 years? Whether we use my method or your method, Lebron comes out ahead.



And then when defense comes into play, the metrics go heavily towards lebron anyway, so...

[Johnny Tomala]

Jordan, KAJ, Russell, LBJ and Wilt.

[CharityStripe34]

Guys with arguments are Jordan, Kareem, LeBron, Russell and Wilt. Between individual brilliance, team success, impact on the game, legacy, etc.