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Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread.

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1081 » by Kanyewest » Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:48 am

tleikheen wrote:Anyone that advocates getting rid of Beal is not a Wiz fan. Beal is shooting very efficiently and though he can be a gunner and get his 30ppg he has "tryed" to play with his team mates. The Beal the Wiz need is the 20/25 ppg Beal who occasionally gets 30 pts plus.
The direct beneficiary of Beal missing games is Deni who defers to Beal and immediatly gives up the rock instead of taking off after snaring a rebound. We need Deni to play freely and go when a fast pace is advantageous. Beal can get his own and thats needed ,What is really great ,Rui can get his own in a bully style and Kuz just makes up his mind and uses length on his drives. KP is long range ,drives and midrange game and getting to the line. In my mind the one who held the offense back was WUJ who didnt see playing big was the way for the Wiz to win ballgames. The Wiz outplayed ,outscored the 2nd best offense in the league playing bigball and it was exciting to watch.


I also think Kispert being back has helped. Plus the emergence of Goodwin- the last few games with Beal in the lineup they were adjusting to life without Delon Wright. Plus Rui has been playing better off the bench- he was +10 against Charlotte, +20 against Mavericks.

Also the losses with Beal have been against quality teams
- The Celtics
- The Cavs
- The Nets (without Kyrie they have won 5 games)

The other two losses
- The 76ers (without Embiid but on the road, currently 6-7)
- The Pacers (it seemed bad at the time because the Pacers were 1-4 when they played Washington but are now 6-6 :o )

The wins in the meantime
- Utah (10-3)- I'm curious if Utah's run is actually sustainable
- Mavs (on a back to back/the Wizards really play hard against Dinwiddie)
- The Hornets
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1082 » by doclinkin » Sun Nov 13, 2022 5:49 pm

nate33 wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
DCZards wrote:Yup….Brad needs to see that and Wes Jr. needs to enforce it.


He needs to revert to how he played when Wall was around. Focus on being Ray Allen 2.0 and let others handle the rock at crunch time.

If (and BIG if) he can put his ego aside and do that, and Wes gets his shite together, this team could certainly be of playoff caliber…making Turd a happy chap..

I honestly don't think he is a good enough shooter to do that anymore.

I think Beal is doing the things he does best right now - being a slasher, cutter, and a secondary ball-handler in the pick-and-roll. And it shows in that he is playing his most efficient basketball of his career. The trick is, to put the right combination of spacing and defense around him, since Beal is neither a spacer nor a top notch defender. For spacing, we need Kispert, and to maintain our defense, we want Kispert at SG so we can have our versatile, switchable defenders (Avdija, Kuzma, Rui) at forward. So I think we need Beal to man the PG position, but only nominally. Play him at PG, but have Kuzma and Avdija initiate the offense.


nate33 wrote:- I don't care what anybody says, I'm really starting to like Kyle Kuzma. He probably tries to do a little more than he should, but man, he is a really skilled player who can do everything pretty well. His game has no weakness, other than perhaps an irrational confidence. He'll post up small guys; he'll slash against slow guys. He has very good touch on that floater and pretty good vision, which makes him a threat as the ball-handler on the pick-and-roll. And he has a pretty good turnaround fadeaway. It's not good enough to be a primary option, but it's useful as a bailout shot when an offensive set breaks down. I like how Wes is taking him out of the starting lineup early (bringing in Rui) so that Kuz can be a fulcrum for the 2nd unit.

- Having Deni and Kuzma at forward really gives Wes a lot of flexibility. The both handle the ball as well as a typical shooting guard, so Wes can go with a big lineup and not really face any consequences.

- I think the Wizards are playing better without Beal because of Kispert. Kispert is no where near as good as Beal in the abstract, but he provides exactly what the team needs better than Beal. Kispert's off ball activity and quick release provides just enough off-ball gravity, that it opens up things for everyone else. Meanwhile, Kispert has the size on defense to fit in with the Wizards' switching scheme seamlessly. He was guarding Olynyk for much of the night with no issues. That's our SG guarding their center. With Beal in the lineup, Kispert has to play SF, and we lose the defensive benefits of our huge front line, which is usually 2 out of Deni, Kuz and Rui, plus a center. When Beal comes back, we might be better off with him replacing a lot of Morris' minutes. But rather than have him be the primary ball handler, let Kuzma and Avdija initiate the offense.


This. From the Utah game thread.

I'm liking the Kispert, Deni, Kuzma, Porzingis chemistry. Still works when Rui is subbed in as well. We can go ultra big and get things done.

In fact if Beal and Delon stayed out I'd like to see what happens with Jordan Goodwin at the point of attack. Kuzma and Deni would carry much of the playmaking duties, but Goodwin makes good things happen. I can see Beal at point, some, but I agree that Kispert adds necessary spacing, and really does not need touches to have an effect. HIs defense is passable, but next to Beal I think our D would suffer, and I'm not sure if the offense is better. With a bulldog defender at the point of attack, it slows the action enough that Kispert has time to recover, makes Kuzma even more effective if he doesn't have to reach and chase. Where Beal hurts us most is in transition defense. He really can't seem to help but have conversations with referees complaining about calls, which ends up costing us a few possessions each game where he is trailing behind the action. That's the difference between a win in regulation vs a loss in overtime. Goodwin plays with aggressive desperation, he's in the action on every play. That energy is contagious. (Delon was the same but only on defense, on offense he deferred to absolutely everybody, only taking a shot if there was no alternative, so the offense lacked pop).

On offense, Beal has been scoring efficiently everywhere inside the 3 line, but he tends to be a magnet for the ball to whom Deni and Kuzma defer. We lose ball motion, reducing the efficiency of players around Beal even when he himself is scoring well. And lose confidence from Deni, cockiness from Kuzma. Sometimes that cockiness results in those late clock clutch threes he hits. You've got to have someone willing to take that shot.

Morris has good chemistry, decent efficiency. But with Beal and Kispert together our defense would be back to abysmal. It would take a ballsy move for the coach to demote Beal, even Morris, but I can see resting Beal an extra few minutes with Goodwin holding that spot. I expect we get Beal back shortly so may not see that line, but I get the feeling it would work.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1083 » by nate33 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:31 pm

doclinkin wrote:Morris has good chemistry, decent efficiency. But with Beal and Kispert together our defense would be back to abysmal. It would take a ballsy move for the coach to demote Beal, even Morris, but I can see resting Beal an extra few minutes with Goodwin holding that spot. I expect we get Beal back shortly so may not see that line, but I get the feeling it would work.

Yeah, the Beal/Kispert defensive combo at the point of attack isn't scaring anybody. But it's not any worse than the Morris/Kispert combo that has been passable enough to win 3 in a row.

The key is that Kispert is big enough to guard up. He can defend the worst offensive player among the opposition's 2, 3 or 4, or even a 5 as long as it's not a behemoth like Embiid or Valanciunas. That frees up Avdija to guard the opposition's best ball handler. And then when Avdija sits, Goodwin can come in and pester the point of attack. Beal at least gives us a bit more flexibility than Morris, because Beal has the strength to guard 3's and even hold his own against a 4 as long as he isn't too tall.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1084 » by payitforward » Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:36 pm

tleikheen wrote:Anyone that advocates getting rid of Beal is not a Wiz fan....

You could restrain yourself a little.... Some of us here have been Wizards fans a lot longer than you! :)

tleikheen wrote:...Beal is shooting very efficiently.... The Beal the Wiz need is the 20/25 ppg Beal who occasionally gets 30 pts plus....

OTOH, here I agree with you 1000% !! Brad is having the best year of his career, & he's doing it exactly the way you describe it -- by:

tleikheen wrote:...play(ing) with his team mates....

We beat a good team last night &, as you say
tleikheen wrote:...it was exciting to watch.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1085 » by doclinkin » Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:03 pm

nate33 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Morris has good chemistry, decent efficiency. But with Beal and Kispert together our defense would be back to abysmal. It would take a ballsy move for the coach to demote Beal, even Morris, but I can see resting Beal an extra few minutes with Goodwin holding that spot. I expect we get Beal back shortly so may not see that line, but I get the feeling it would work.

Yeah, the Beal/Kispert defensive combo at the point of attack isn't scaring anybody. But it's not any worse than the Morris/Kispert combo that has been passable enough to win 3 in a row.


True though Morris brings an ast/TO ratio of 5:1 and slightly better floor spacing.

Morris seems to have a significant positive effect on court with every starter (see 2-man lines):
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/morrimo01/lineups/2023

and 4 of the top 7 two-man line-ups. (sorted by either by efficiency, or assists, or net points).
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2023/lineups/

Whereas Beal and Kuzma don't seem to have that chemistry.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bealbr01/lineups/2023

Where again Kuz so far seems to mesh well with every other starter but Beal:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01/lineups/2023

Maybe that's a relic of the fact that we won games with Beal out. Or maybe the reverse is true. To my eyes, the numbers back up what seems to happen on court. Between Kuz and Beal they don't seem to know which one should initiate the offense, both do best with the ball in their hands. (Likewise Dinwiddie and Beal in past years).

I just wonder if at some point in Beal's career a coach will realize he is best as a 6th man. Carrying a heavy load by himself, if not improving the play of those around him.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1086 » by Dolevi » Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:15 pm

You gotta trade Beal guys lol
He's a good player, very very good and talented player. A leader he's not. Helping the team chemistry? not
The team is clearly better and happier without him? yes
So WHY not?
Above all, I think the most upgraded thing we've seen in the last several games - is defense without him. Suddenly everyone getting blocks and steals all over. Rui, KP, Deni and even Kispert. Goodwin is great defensivly!! This team suddenly plays much better defense and it's clear to see Beal's out is a direct impact for it. This is from an eye test but i'm sure numbers will verify it as well.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1087 » by tleikheen » Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:48 pm

PLAY BIG ..... KP is a defensive anchor but you can see with Kuz ,Deni,Gaff,Rui ,& Corey there's alot of defensive potential there . They allow Delon and Goodwin to be very aggressive on opposing PG's .
This will be another game to show that the Wiz can share the ball ,get assists and raise their scoring output without Beal. Beal is a damn good ballplayer and needs to know moving the ball around will find him again to do what he deoes best,scoring.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1088 » by payitforward » Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:11 am

nate33 wrote:
Frichuela wrote:He (i.e. Beal) needs to revert to how he played when Wall was around. Focus on being Ray Allen 2.0 and let others handle the rock at crunch time....

I honestly don't think he is a good enough shooter to do that anymore.

I think Beal is doing the things he does best right now - being a slasher, cutter, and a secondary ball-handler in the pick-and-roll. And it shows in that he is playing his most efficient basketball of his career....

That's on the money, nate.

nate33 wrote:...The trick is, to put the right combination of spacing and defense around him, since Beal is neither a spacer nor a top notch defender. For spacing, we need Kispert, and to maintain our defense, we want Kispert at SG so we can have our versatile, switchable defenders (Avdija, Kuzma, Rui) at forward. So I think we need Beal to man the PG position, but only nominally. Play him at PG, but have Kuzma and Avdija initiate the offense.

This is a hell of an interesting idea.
I'd be interested to see it in action for 20 minutes a game for a while -- to find out how well it works or not.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1089 » by tleikheen » Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:43 am

Moreso than Beal not playing and the Wiz winning , Dallas/beaten,Utah/beaten, Memphis/beaten. There was wide spread belief the Wiz were going to be lucky to play good enough to be in the payin rounds. There was wide spread condemnation that the Wiz 1st round picks were mediocre picks. It was laughable to those who have seen Morris and Barton that they were going to be prime players to help the Wiz get to those playins.
Only a small minority of fans argued the Wiz will win if they play Deni,Rui,Corey and Gaff as core rotation players. But here we are Rui,Deni ,Corey and Gaff are on any given night a big part of the Wiz rising before our eyes. I love seeing athletic tall players around KP so he doesnt have to have to take abuse in the paint . Kuz ,Deni ,Gaff and even Rui are getting blocked shots around KP and in that way are protecting KP physically in the paint.
Other than the young guys becoming important rotation players maybe getting Beal to buy into team basketball might just be the key to how far the Wiz rise in the East.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1090 » by dckingsfan » Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:39 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Frichuela wrote:He (i.e. Beal) needs to revert to how he played when Wall was around. Focus on being Ray Allen 2.0 and let others handle the rock at crunch time....

I honestly don't think he is a good enough shooter to do that anymore.

I think Beal is doing the things he does best right now - being a slasher, cutter, and a secondary ball-handler in the pick-and-roll. And it shows in that he is playing his most efficient basketball of his career....

That's on the money, nate.

nate33 wrote:...The trick is, to put the right combination of spacing and defense around him, since Beal is neither a spacer nor a top notch defender. For spacing, we need Kispert, and to maintain our defense, we want Kispert at SG so we can have our versatile, switchable defenders (Avdija, Kuzma, Rui) at forward. So I think we need Beal to man the PG position, but only nominally. Play him at PG, but have Kuzma and Avdija initiate the offense.

This is a hell of an interesting idea.
I'd be interested to see it in action for 20 minutes a game for a while -- to find out how well it works or not.

I think you are saying that running the offense through Porzingis and having either Deni or Kuz initiate the offense would be ideal. Violent agreement. You also need shooters (so either Kispert or Goodwin needs to be on the floor). By running the offense through Porzingis in the high post you will get your spacing.

With Beal, I think we should run him and set multiple picks for him on every play. Never let him catch the ball ISO at the top of the key except late in the shot clock if nothing worked. That is where he will break down defenses (IMO).

So, then you have the question of what to do when Porzingis is off the floor. I was really perplexed by this because running Beal ISO is a gift to the other team. I think the part of the answer is a unit focused around defense. Goodwin, Wright, Deni, Kuz, Gafford.

There is a problem - good offense beats good defense.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1091 » by J-Ves » Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:46 pm

It seems to me that Kispert and Goodwin are two of our best players and both guys should start even when the team is fully healthy. Of course Beal and KP automatically get starting roles no matter what and frankly both guys have played very well this season. I think a lot of the "wiz are better without Beal talk" is overblown. That leaves starting PF which both Kuz and Deni have a claim to. I could see an argument for both players and even I don't know who I'd pick.

Off the bench I would see if we could get away with a Morris and Wright backcourt. It would be undersized but I think those two guys could work well together. Barton has been bad but he continues to get the microwave role, we just hope he starts playing a little better going forward. Then Deni/Kuz plus Gaf complete the bench. Unfortunately Rui is the odd man out
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1092 » by NatP4 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:10 am

Kuzma+Barton for Collins. Monte Morris for Terrence Mann.

Wright Goodwin
Beal Kispert
Mann Avdija
Collins Rui
Porzingis Gafford

I can totally see Tommy flipping all of our pile of mediocre role players for Kawhi. Morris/Barton/Kuzma/Hachimura matches up salary-wise. They can obviously just call up Davis and Q Jackson for depth.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1093 » by nate33 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:15 am

J-Ves wrote:It seems to me that Kispert and Goodwin are two of our best players and both guys should start even when the team is fully healthy. Of course Beal and KP automatically get starting roles no matter what and frankly both guys have played very well this season. I think a lot of the "wiz are better without Beal talk" is overblown. That leaves starting PF which both Kuz and Deni have a claim to. I could see an argument for both players and even I don't know who I'd pick.

Off the bench I would see if we could get away with a Morris and Wright backcourt. It would be undersized but I think those two guys could work well together. Barton has been bad but he continues to get the microwave role, we just hope he starts playing a little better going forward. Then Deni/Kuz plus Gaf complete the bench. Unfortunately Rui is the odd man out

I love what Goodwin has done so far, but let's pump the brakes a little bit. Goodwin is benefiting a great deal from not having a Scouting Report on him. Once teams get a look at him, they'll figure out his weaknesses and his production is going to dip a bit. I think it's premature to be putting Goodwin ahead of Deni or Kuzma in the rotation.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1094 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:09 am

I think what these last couple of games has reinforced what we have seen the last couple of seasons...

While Beal is a very good player, what he does on the court does not win games or lift team to a higher level of contention.

Unfortunately Tommy is blind to this fact, and signed Beal to a monstrosity of a contract .

I am interested to see us throw a Wright & Goodwin backcourt at teams for stretches when we want to turn up the pressure & amp up the energy. Along with Deni and Gaff, I love the defensive intensity this team is showing at times.

And so far KP is exceeding expectations!
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1095 » by gambitx777 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:55 am

I'll save this again. I think we need to move Beal to starting PG. He's a good passer and he can handle the ball well enough. If he embraces the assignment he might be just as suitable as Morris but more capable! Morris would be much much better with the bench and would do a couple of things for the rotation. With Morris in the bench you can limit Beal minutes to keep him healthy his efficiency has been better so not pushing him past 25 minutes a game wouldn't kill him for a while. And would allow use to shorten Barton's minutes or bench him in favor of Goodwin.

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1096 » by tleikheen » Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:26 am

I'll save this again. I think we need to move Beal to starting PG.


The reason Beal can play PG is James Harden , Ben Simmons ,Luka ,Smart,Cunningham,Jrue Holiday,Murray, all play PG. Lets be real ,the love affair of Delon Wright or Jordan Goodwin to play high level is supremely limited for really competing for the 4 in the Eastern Conf.
What we're seeing is the maturation of Rui,Deni,Corey and Gaff into high level rotation players. We know the winning starts with KP ,Kuz AND Beal but filling out the top 10 means filing out 8,9,& 10 on the roster.
8,9,10 should be 8)Wright ,9)Goodwin,10)Carey

Need to move Morris and Barton for trade chips
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1097 » by doclinkin » Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:02 pm

The winning starts with Embiid, Turner, Lonzo, LaVine, Morant, Bane, LaMelo all being out. The only quality win against a full-strength team was Utah. Dallas, but aside from Bitcoin Dinwiddie they were tired and have been playing badly on the road. Plus we have never lost in our pink uniforms, they make us invincible.

I like how we have been playing. Team ball, Porzingis out of his mind, growth from Deni, energy from role-players, leadership from Kuzma. Improvement and progress are a good thing. But we have not hit the hard patch of our schedule.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1098 » by 9 and 20 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:00 pm

doclinkin wrote:The winning starts with Embiid, Turner, Lonzo, LaVine, Morant, Bane, LaMelo all being out. The only quality win against a full-strength team was Utah. Dallas, but aside from Bitcoin Dinwiddie they were tired and have been playing badly on the road. Plus we have never lost in our pink uniforms, they make us invincible.

I like how we have been playing. Team ball, Porzingis out of his mind, growth from Deni, energy from role-players, leadership from Kuzma. Improvement and progress are a good thing. But we have not hit the hard patch of our schedule.


Agree with this. This 8-6 banner is going to look good next to last year's 10-3.

Reality going to slap the hairspray off of Terd's orange hued head. No chance we end up in the top 8. Might sneak into the top 10 if we luck out on the injury front.
Can't say I do. Who else gonna shoot?
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1099 » by DCZards » Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:11 pm

doclinkin wrote:The winning starts with Embiid, Turner, Lonzo, LaVine, Morant, Bane, LaMelo all being out. The only quality win against a full-strength team was Utah. Dallas, but aside from Bitcoin Dinwiddie they were tired and have been playing badly on the road. Plus we have never lost in our pink uniforms, they make us invincible.

I like how we have been playing. Team ball, Porzingis out of his mind, growth from Deni, energy from role-players, leadership from Kuzma. Improvement and progress are a good thing. But we have not hit the hard patch of our schedule.

This. I love the winning as much as anyone here….maybe more. And seeing Kispert find his groove, Goodwin show that he might be a keeper has been great and Deni have a great shooting game.

But let’s be real. The Zards may be on a four game winning streak but we haven’t beaten a good team at full strength. We beat a mediocre Hornets team without its best player—Ball. Dallas was on a back-to-back and without Christian Wood. Despite being 10-3 when the Zards beat them, the Jazz will be lucky to finish the season at .500. And we beat a Memphis team without its 3 best players—Morant, Bane and Jackson.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#1100 » by gambitx777 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:15 pm

I'm just saying start Beal at PG for 5 games. If it doesn't work oh well no one though this team would work anyway but having hero ball Beal with a back up point guard dragging down Deni or kispert isn't going to work either.

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