Giannis Nowitzki vs Kevin Durant Garnett

[rand]

Which hybrid would you take for today's game, Giannis Nowitzki or Kevin Durant Garnett? Both hybrids only take the stronger among all attributes between the two players at their peaks.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think Kevin Durant Garnett still has ball-handling issues when dealing with defensive pressure, so I would take Giannis Nowitzki. In this hypothetical Nowitzki is arguably the best big man shooter and arguably the best finisher ever, while being a DPOY level guy. In this space and pace era, the abundance of 3 and layups/dunks he would get is too much to pass up. I also think because of his gravity as a scorer and driver, he would be a better playmaker than Garnett.

Garnett should be a better defender in this exercise, but I'm not sure that Garnett in this exercise actually gets a bump in defensive goodness because Garnett is already better than KD at almost everything defense. That menial/static impact on defense put him behind Nowitzki in terms of goodness (someone's whose offense is really amplified through their combination).

[Laimbeer]

Both are defensive anchor big men and elite, long scorers. But the playmaking of Giannis sets them apart.

[165bows]

Elite shooter and elite defender, definitely Durant/Garnett. Prob the perfect player for today's game. Could play the four or the five. Other pair is obv amazing, but not as good of a defender or scorer and less of a C on defense.

[uberhikari]

I think Kevin Durant Garnett still has ball-handling issues when dealing with defensive pressure, so I would take Giannis Nowitzki. In this hypothetical Nowitzki is arguably the best big man shooter and arguably the best finisher ever, while being a DPOY level guy. In this space and pace era, the abundance of 3 and layups/dunks he would get is too much to pass up. I also think because of his gravity as a scorer and driver, he would be a better playmaker than Garnett.

Garnett should be a better defender in this exercise, but I'm not sure that Garnett in this exercise actually gets a bump in defensive goodness because Garnett is already better than KD at almost everything defense. That menial/static impact on defense put him behind Nowitzki in terms of goodness (someone's whose offense is really amplified through their combination).

Durant is a better offensive player than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better defender than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better passer than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better playmaker than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. If KG had KD's scoring arsenal and ability to operate on the wing he would be closer to Jokic as a passer than a Giannis/Dirk hybrid would.

I don't see any advantages that a Giannis/Nowitzki hybrid would have over a KD/KG hybrid except inside finishing.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think Kevin Durant Garnett still has ball-handling issues when dealing with defensive pressure, so I would take Giannis Nowitzki. In this hypothetical Nowitzki is arguably the best big man shooter and arguably the best finisher ever, while being a DPOY level guy. In this space and pace era, the abundance of 3 and layups/dunks he would get is too much to pass up. I also think because of his gravity as a scorer and driver, he would be a better playmaker than Garnett.

Garnett should be a better defender in this exercise, but I'm not sure that Garnett in this exercise actually gets a bump in defensive goodness because Garnett is already better than KD at almost everything defense. That menial/static impact on defense put him behind Nowitzki in terms of goodness (someone's whose offense is really amplified through their combination).

Durant is a better offensive player than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better defender than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better passer than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better playmaker than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. If KG had KD's scoring arsenal and ability to operate on the wing he would be closer to Jokic as a passer than a Giannis/Dirk hybrid would.

I don't see any advantages that a Giannis/Nowitzki hybrid would have over a KD/KG hybrid except inside finishing.

While I actually do believe Dirk has an argument as an offensive player over KD, that isn't really necessarily for the point I am trying to make.

You combine arguably the greatest inside scorer ever with the arguably GOAT big shooter, you get a more attractive scoring combo than KD and KG combined. Kg's scoring strengths doesn't necessarily KD's.

The isn't true for Giannis and Dirk. Giannis and Dirk combined is a better playmaker because of the better scoring gravity as I already mentioned. KG isn't a better playmaker than current Giannis just because he doesn't have the same gravity as a scorer; it doesn't matter that KG is a better pure passer. He can't force the D to commit in the same way.

Giannis and Dirk combined is arguably the GOAT finisher, GOAT midrange guy, and elite from 3 with special spacing for a 5. You can't back off this player because he hits 3s, yet he is also one of the most devastating slashers ever.

[uberhikari]

I think Kevin Durant Garnett still has ball-handling issues when dealing with defensive pressure, so I would take Giannis Nowitzki. In this hypothetical Nowitzki is arguably the best big man shooter and arguably the best finisher ever, while being a DPOY level guy. In this space and pace era, the abundance of 3 and layups/dunks he would get is too much to pass up. I also think because of his gravity as a scorer and driver, he would be a better playmaker than Garnett.

Garnett should be a better defender in this exercise, but I'm not sure that Garnett in this exercise actually gets a bump in defensive goodness because Garnett is already better than KD at almost everything defense. That menial/static impact on defense put him behind Nowitzki in terms of goodness (someone's whose offense is really amplified through their combination).

Durant is a better offensive player than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better defender than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better passer than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better playmaker than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. If KG had KD's scoring arsenal and ability to operate on the wing he would be closer to Jokic as a passer than a Giannis/Dirk hybrid would.

I don't see any advantages that a Giannis/Nowitzki hybrid would have over a KD/KG hybrid except inside finishing.

While I actually do believe Dirk has an argument as an offensive player over KD, that isn't really necessarily for the point I am trying to make.

You combine arguably the greatest inside scorer ever with the arguably GOAT big shooter, you get a more attractive scoring combo than KD and KG combined. Kg's scoring strengths doesn't necessarily KD's.

The isn't true for Giannis and Dirk. Giannis and Dirk combined is a better playmaker because of the better scoring gravity as I already mentioned. KG isn't a better playmaker than current Giannis just because he doesn't have the same gravity as a scorer; it doesn't matter that KG is a better pure passer. He can't force the D to commit in the same way.

Giannis and Dirk combined is arguably the GOAT finisher, GOAT midrange guy, and elite from 3 with special spacing for a 5. You can't back off this player because he hits 3s, yet he is also one of the most devastating slashers ever.

Playmaking is not a function of "scoring gravity". Your scoring gravity doesn't matter if you don't have the vision to see the passes you can make and the ability to make those passes. Kobe wasn't a better playmaker than Nash despite having more scoring gravity. And this would have been the case even if Kobe was a more willing passer: Kobe just didn't have the vision and passing ability of Nash. In other words, playmaking doesn't scale linearly with scoring gravity.

In order to unlock elite playmaking you just need enough scoring gravity to make the defense respect your threat to score. A KG/KD hybrid would have that.

Now, would a Dirk/Giannis hybrid be the better scorer? Yes. Would they be better on offense? Probably. But would that offense make up for the defensive discrepancy? Absolutely not. KG is simply in another tier as a defender compared to Giannis.

The most important defensive role on the floor is the 4/5. KG can play both positions. KG can also defend on all 3 levels: on the perimeter, inside the 3pt line as a help defender, and inside as a rim protector.

KD's scoring and KG's passing are already an all-time great combo. But the defense completely tips the scales.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Durant is a better offensive player than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better defender than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better passer than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better playmaker than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. If KG had KD's scoring arsenal and ability to operate on the wing he would be closer to Jokic as a passer than a Giannis/Dirk hybrid would.

I don't see any advantages that a Giannis/Nowitzki hybrid would have over a KD/KG hybrid except inside finishing.

While I actually do believe Dirk has an argument as an offensive player over KD, that isn't really necessarily for the point I am trying to make.

You combine arguably the greatest inside scorer ever with the arguably GOAT big shooter, you get a more attractive scoring combo than KD and KG combined. Kg's scoring strengths doesn't necessarily KD's.

The isn't true for Giannis and Dirk. Giannis and Dirk combined is a better playmaker because of the better scoring gravity as I already mentioned. KG isn't a better playmaker than current Giannis just because he doesn't have the same gravity as a scorer; it doesn't matter that KG is a better pure passer. He can't force the D to commit in the same way.

Giannis and Dirk combined is arguably the GOAT finisher, GOAT midrange guy, and elite from 3 with special spacing for a 5. You can't back off this player because he hits 3s, yet he is also one of the most devastating slashers ever.

Playmaking is not a function of "scoring gravity". Your scoring gravity doesn't matter if you don't have the vision to see the passes you can make and the ability to make those passes. Kobe wasn't a better playmaker than Nash despite having more scoring gravity. And this would have been the case even if Kobe was a more willing passer: Kobe just didn't have the vision and passing ability of Nash. In other words, playmaking doesn't scale linearly with scoring gravity.

In order to unlock elite playmaking you just need enough scoring gravity to make the defense respect your threat to score. A KG/KD hybrid would have that.

Now, would a Dirk/Giannis hybrid be the better scorer? Yes. Would they be better on offense? Probably. But would that offense make up for the defensive discrepancy? Absolutely not. KG is simply in another tier as a defender compared to Giannis.

The most important defensive role on the floor is the 4/5. KG can play both positions. KG can also defend on all 3 levels: on the perimeter, inside the 3pt line as a help defender, and inside as a rim protector.

KD's scoring and KG's passing are already an all-time great combo. But the defense completely tips the scales.

It absolutely is a part of playmaking. Being able to pull an extra defender out the paint that allows for someone to get an easy layup, is scoring gravity. And Giannis doesn't need to be the same level of passer to be a better playmaker than KG, because he is a better ball-handler (allowing for handling a higher offensive load), and slasher. Such slashing, draws defenders to him, allowing for valuable kick-outs to open shooters.

Nash didn't get worse really as a pure passer necessarily as he got older, but he certainly had his playmaking impact lessened as he got older due to his inability to create as draw as much defensive attention.

[Jaivl]

First instinct was Giannis Nowitzki, and I didn't even think it was that close.

But... what is Giannis Nowitzki actually better at? I guess finishing at the rim, but I'm not sure Giannis is more than marginally better at that than peak KD.

[LukaTheGOAT]

First instinct was Giannis Nowitzki, and I didn't even think it was that close.

But... what is Giannis Nowitzki actually better at? I guess finishing at the rim, but I'm not sure Giannis is more than marginally better at that than peak KD.

He gets there much more than KD, which really gives him an advantage as an inside scorer. And I'm imagining it would be that much easier to get to the rim if you have to defend him like Dirk.

[eminence]

#1 advantage for Giannis Nowitzki is willingness to just drive to the rim relentlessly and successfully, which is somewhat an era thing, though I don't think that completely or even mostly closes the gap in rim aggressiveness.

Kevin x2 has a clear advantage in passing vision, I think a slightly better handle, and significantly better defense through being more mobile laterally and generally having a better understanding of where to position oneself.

[uberhikari]

It absolutely is a part of playmaking. Being able to pull an extra defender out the paint that allows for someone to get an easy layup, is scoring gravity.

You're right I missed a word. I meant to say: Playmaking is not necessarily a function of "scoring gravity"

And Giannis doesn't need to be the same level of passer to be a better playmaker than KG, because he is a better ball-handler (allowing for handling a higher offensive load), and slasher. Such slashing, draws defenders to him, allowing for valuable kick-outs to open shooters.

But KD is a better ball-handler than Giannis, so in this scenario, a KD/KG hybrid would have better ball handling abilities than a Dirk/Giannis hybrid.

Nash didn't get worse really as a pure passer necessarily as he got older, but he certainly had his playmaking impact lessened as he got older due to his inability to create as draw as much defensive attention.

Right. That's why I said this:

In order to unlock elite playmaking you just need enough scoring gravity to make the defense respect your threat to score. A KG/KD hybrid would have that.

Once you have a certain level of scoring gravity the only thing that will distinguish you as a playmaker from someone else is your vision and passing ability. The comparison between Giannis and KG in terms of passing is the difference between Wade and LeBron. Wade had enough scoring gravity to be as good a playmaker as LeBron, he just didn't have the vision and ability.

[Stan]

Giannis Nowitzki would literally be the greatest player in NBA history.

[Eagle4]

Giannis relentlessness is what sets him apart, KG was intense but still not as consistently in attack mode like Giannis. As I said before he's a 6'11, high b-ball IQ Westbrook. You give him Dirk's incredible shooting touch, footwork and it's a wrap.

[agentofatlas]

All I can think about is Giannis hitting his FTs at a near 90% clip. Jesus I think I'll go the that combo.

[Jaivl]

Giannis Nowitzki would literally be the greatest player in NBA history.

As if Kevin Durant Garnett would not?

Giannis relentlessness is what sets him apart, KG was intense but still not as consistently in attack mode like Giannis.

¿?

If you mean attack mode as in "attack the rim" then yes, absolutely. In general, KG has just a higher-revving motor than Giannis (and than anybody, probably) and he can sustain it for much longer than the greek, not particularly close in my eyes.

[Eagle4]

Giannis Nowitzki would literally be the greatest player in NBA history.

As if Kevin Durant Garnett would not?

Giannis relentlessness is what sets him apart, KG was intense but still not as consistently in attack mode like Giannis.

¿?

If you mean attack mode as in "attack the rim" then yes, absolutely. In general, KG has just a higher-revving motor than Giannis (and than anybody, probably) and he can sustain it for much longer than the greek, not particularly close in my eyes.

I strongly disagree

[Jaivl]

Giannis Nowitzki would literally be the greatest player in NBA history.

As if Kevin Durant Garnett would not?

Giannis relentlessness is what sets him apart, KG was intense but still not as consistently in attack mode like Giannis.

¿?

If you mean attack mode as in "attack the rim" then yes, absolutely. In general, KG has just a higher-revving motor than Giannis (and than anybody, probably) and he can sustain it for much longer than the greek, not particularly close in my eyes.

I strongly disagree

Peak Giannis plays, like, 6 to 10 less minutes per game than peak KG in the playoffs. And KG did not take any possessions off. Maybe you think Giannis is more impactful and bridges the gap, but I don't think the motor part is disagreeable.

[Statlanta]

I would take Kevin Durnett, because I'm much higher on KG's defense

[Peregrine01]

I think Kevin Durant Garnett still has ball-handling issues when dealing with defensive pressure, so I would take Giannis Nowitzki. In this hypothetical Nowitzki is arguably the best big man shooter and arguably the best finisher ever, while being a DPOY level guy. In this space and pace era, the abundance of 3 and layups/dunks he would get is too much to pass up. I also think because of his gravity as a scorer and driver, he would be a better playmaker than Garnett.

Garnett should be a better defender in this exercise, but I'm not sure that Garnett in this exercise actually gets a bump in defensive goodness because Garnett is already better than KD at almost everything defense. That menial/static impact on defense put him behind Nowitzki in terms of goodness (someone's whose offense is really amplified through their combination).

Durant is a better offensive player than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better defender than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better passer than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. KG is a better playmaker than either Giannis or Dirk in real life. If KG had KD's scoring arsenal and ability to operate on the wing he would be closer to Jokic as a passer than a Giannis/Dirk hybrid would.

I don't see any advantages that a Giannis/Nowitzki hybrid would have over a KD/KG hybrid except inside finishing.

I really don't see KD being a better offensive player than Dirk. More in his bag, yes. But also a lot more prone to do things that aren't optimal for team offense. Dirk carried some great offensive squads year in and year out and during the playoffs without all-star talent. And he was better able to blend his talents better in a team setting than KD ever has. KD, as good as he is, too often gets Kyrie-syndrome where he's pounding the air out of the ball and killing offensive flow. And he has not led his team to the same offensive heights that Dirk has as their main engine.