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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition

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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#541 » by Devilzsidewalk » Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:38 pm

minimus wrote:We need PoA defender for 10-15 min... Like GP2...


I'm a massive GP2 enjoyer. I think Golden State is missing GP2 like we are PB and Vando. Just a level of effort and grittiness that is conducive to Ws.

I don't know who we can get like that though - that type of player is so coveted. There's GP2, Caruso, Melton...all pretty hard to get.

I haven't seen him play yet this year, but I've heard Dennis Smith Jr is stone-walling people with his defense so far this year. He might be attainable once Lamelo is back because I think they like Maledon too. Also he'd give us another guy that wants to be a football player.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#542 » by cmoss84 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:03 am

Would a Rose/Randle for Dlo/Naz trade make any sense?
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#543 » by winforlose » Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:00 am

cmoss84 wrote:Would a Rose/Randle for Dlo/Naz trade make any sense?


Randle/KAT/Gobert is a bit too big and limited on defense. Rose isn’t exactly a Bev type defensive guard either. I think a 3 team deal would work, but again we need a POA guard who can floor space.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#544 » by shrink » Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:38 pm

The Flagrant Howls and Dane Moore podcasts made me, ME, realize we aren’t going to trade DLo for some instant savior.

Mike Conley is a smart player and good passer, and he said it took him a year to learn how to play with Gobert, since Rudy is such a unique player. Russell has his faults (which I often complain about), but he is also a smart player and a good passer. He is also struggling to feed Rudy, just like Conley did.

When we made the Rudy trade, I had forgotten about Conley’s Year One issues, and I expected a beautiful DLo-Gobert connection immediately. I was being unrealistic - and it would be unrealistic to think we could trade for a PG that could instantly gel with Gobert.

I now look at it that no trade is going to immediately turn this connection around, and we need to be okay with that. The Gobert addition is a multi-year plan to re-write the structure of the Timberwolves. We need to be patient with Gobert and DLo - 15 games into a season looking to trade for a PG savior isn’t feasible. I’m not happy about it, but buckle in.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#545 » by TimberKat » Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:15 pm

moss_is_1 wrote:Atlanta could still be in on Gobert, maybe we can snag Capela? Atl just traded Huerter and got a pick, opens the door for them needing a shooter like Beasley. :nod:

I would be if it's Gobert + DLo for Bogdanovic, (Collins or Hunter), Capela
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#546 » by shrink » Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:39 pm

I think there is only one PG we could trade for that it wouldn’t take a year for him to learn to feed Gobert.

And that’s Mike Conley.

Unfortunately, Rudy might have wanted to get out of Utah to escape the aging Conley’s poor defense, which always made him look bad as opponents came at him with a head of steam. Moreover, even if the extra guaranteed money on Conley’s deal made it a fair swap for DLo’s expiring deal, UTA is disincentivized to trade him to us, because improving the Wolves decreases the value of the MIN picks they own.

I think we better get used to DLo, and hope he starts developing a connection with Gobert soon. But most likely, this is a multi-year situation, and we need to accept some struggling this year.

Edit: I also wanted to point out that Rudy would get frustrated because Donovan Mitchell couldn’t/wouldn’t feed him, and I think he expects Ant to be better. He hasn’t been. But it may not be intentional.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#547 » by Domejandro » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:40 pm

I’m going to be honest, I really don’t buy the D’Angelo Russell takes.

By default, it will improve because he couldn’t struggle more, but even when he plays at his best (like last year), he is only a slight positive, on-the-court. From my perspective, I kind of think it is analysts coping with the fact that Minnesota has no reasonable pathway to exchanging D’Angelo Russell because of the team’s lack of assets and cap flexibility.

Ultimately, Minnesota is forced to bank on internal improvement, so I appreciate analysts trying to raise spirits by making parallels, even if a bit tenuous. That said, the improvement we should see is more-so a result of returning to the mean than due to some adjustment window.

If Minnesota had a reasonable pathway to trade Russell, I am relatively confident that they would consider those options. They don’t, so we just have to hope he starts making wide-open shots again.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#548 » by Neeva » Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:29 pm

We don’t want the timberwolves to feel stuck having to give DLO another gross contract.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#549 » by winforlose » Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:42 am

Domejandro wrote:I’m going to be honest, I really don’t buy the D’Angelo Russell takes.

By default, it will improve because he couldn’t struggle more, but even when he plays at his best (like last year), he is only a slight positive, on-the-court. From my perspective, I kind of think it is analysts coping with the fact that Minnesota has no reasonable pathway to exchanging D’Angelo Russell because of the team’s lack of assets and cap flexibility.

Ultimately, Minnesota is forced to bank on internal improvement, so I appreciate analysts trying to raise spirits by making parallels, even if a bit tenuous. That said, the improvement we should see is more-so a result of returning to the mean than due to some adjustment window.

If Minnesota had a reasonable pathway to trade Russell, I am relatively confident that they would consider those options. They don’t, so we just have to hope he starts making wide-open shots again.


I disagree. As I said before Dlo is a floor and ceiling guy. We pay him for his ceiling and rage at his floor. But that ceiling is high enough that he wins you some games. Other teams will see that ceiling and think they can find ways to get it to show up more. This was the Wiggins issue and GSW believes they have positive value in AW. There is a path to keeping him or trading him. The question is what is he really worth. Tyus is 15 and lacks the take over the game ceiling. But his floor is higher and he is more consistent. Meanwhile a guy like Maxey will get big money without much defense. I think Dlo is probably worth about 20 given his recent regression and overall inconsistency. I think other teams might over pay him in free agency. Trading his bird rights as part of a multi team deal seems likely. Maybe with Simmons or Westbrook.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#550 » by Mamba4Goat » Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:10 am

winforlose wrote:
Domejandro wrote:I’m going to be honest, I really don’t buy the D’Angelo Russell takes.

By default, it will improve because he couldn’t struggle more, but even when he plays at his best (like last year), he is only a slight positive, on-the-court. From my perspective, I kind of think it is analysts coping with the fact that Minnesota has no reasonable pathway to exchanging D’Angelo Russell because of the team’s lack of assets and cap flexibility.

Ultimately, Minnesota is forced to bank on internal improvement, so I appreciate analysts trying to raise spirits by making parallels, even if a bit tenuous. That said, the improvement we should see is more-so a result of returning to the mean than due to some adjustment window.

If Minnesota had a reasonable pathway to trade Russell, I am relatively confident that they would consider those options. They don’t, so we just have to hope he starts making wide-open shots again.


I disagree. As I said before Dlo is a floor and ceiling guy. We pay him for his ceiling and rage at his floor. But that ceiling is high enough that he wins you some games. Other teams will see that ceiling and think they can find ways to get it to show up more. This was the Wiggins issue and GSW believes they have positive value in AW. There is a path to keeping him or trading him. The question is what is he really worth. Tyus is 15 and lacks the take over the game ceiling. But his floor is higher and he is more consistent. Meanwhile a guy like Maxey will get big money without much defense. I think Dlo is probably worth about 20 given his recent regression and overall inconsistency. I think other teams might over pay him in free agency. Trading his bird rights as part of a multi team deal seems likely. Maybe with Simmons or Westbrook.


The idea of D’Lo is a floor and ceiling raiser. The reality of D’Lo though is not that. He may win you a few games when he’s on but he’ll lose you as many, if not more games when he’s off too. He’s closer to a MLE sixth man rather than a $20mil starter imo.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#551 » by Mamba4Goat » Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:15 am

One guy I’m keeping an eye on is Jordan Goodwin over in Washington. If he keeps up his solid play he could, in theory, make one of Delon Wright or Monte Morris (probably Wright) available and finding a way to land one of them would be fantastic.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#552 » by younggunsmn » Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:55 am

Domejandro wrote:I’m going to be honest, I really don’t buy the D’Angelo Russell takes.

By default, it will improve because he couldn’t struggle more, but even when he plays at his best (like last year), he is only a slight positive, on-the-court. From my perspective, I kind of think it is analysts coping with the fact that Minnesota has no reasonable pathway to exchanging D’Angelo Russell because of the team’s lack of assets and cap flexibility.

Ultimately, Minnesota is forced to bank on internal improvement, so I appreciate analysts trying to raise spirits by making parallels, even if a bit tenuous. That said, the improvement we should see is more-so a result of returning to the mean than due to some adjustment window.

If Minnesota had a reasonable pathway to trade Russell, I am relatively confident that they would consider those options. They don’t, so we just have to hope he starts making wide-open shots again.


I agree with this wholeheartedly, I will add that I think that suitors will emerge for his expiring contract, but those suitors aren't going to be interested until they've given up on this season for certain and are looking towards next year.
For some teams that could be as early as january, for others it might be close to the trade deadline.
The moronic play-in system is going to complicate that.
There are a handful of players who could be potential targets that could play their way into/out of their teams long term plans (Simmons, Rozier, Hayward, the Wizards PG situation to name a few).
The nicer salary-range options we had pre-Gobert trade are gone without any draft capital left (Brogdon, Murray, Collins, Turner).

It will be hard to make a trade that makes us better right now, but not making a trade hurts us long term as we will lose that salary slot (who is giving D-Lo more than MLE next year?).

If he is patient and runs the offense, takes open shots, and doesn't make dumb mistakes (like most of the last 3 games), maybe we can make the playoffs with him.
But his on-ball defense is so bad that we basically have to hide him on a non-dribbler.
This makes everyone else look worse as Ant and Jaden are forced to guard smaller, quicker players than they otherwise would, as is KAT. Sometimes that matchup is OK when its westbook and lebron, other times its a disaster when you are facing Darius Garland, Ja, Devin Booker types you need that bulldog POA defender for.
What was so genius about the high wall last year was that it mitigated the weaknesses of BOTH KAt and D-Lo, but without Beverly and Vando that scheme has been swiss cheese this year.

He can't be as bad as he was the first 13 games or you have to sit him, we would have been better off calling up Emmanuel Mudiay from the G-League (curious to see if he could be a rotation player regardless).
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#553 » by younggunsmn » Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:07 am

winforlose wrote:
Domejandro wrote:I’m going to be honest, I really don’t buy the D’Angelo Russell takes.

By default, it will improve because he couldn’t struggle more, but even when he plays at his best (like last year), he is only a slight positive, on-the-court. From my perspective, I kind of think it is analysts coping with the fact that Minnesota has no reasonable pathway to exchanging D’Angelo Russell because of the team’s lack of assets and cap flexibility.

Ultimately, Minnesota is forced to bank on internal improvement, so I appreciate analysts trying to raise spirits by making parallels, even if a bit tenuous. That said, the improvement we should see is more-so a result of returning to the mean than due to some adjustment window.

If Minnesota had a reasonable pathway to trade Russell, I am relatively confident that they would consider those options. They don’t, so we just have to hope he starts making wide-open shots again.


I disagree. As I said before Dlo is a floor and ceiling guy. We pay him for his ceiling and rage at his floor. But that ceiling is high enough that he wins you some games. Other teams will see that ceiling and think they can find ways to get it to show up more. This was the Wiggins issue and GSW believes they have positive value in AW. There is a path to keeping him or trading him. The question is what is he really worth. Tyus is 15 and lacks the take over the game ceiling. But his floor is higher and he is more consistent. Meanwhile a guy like Maxey will get big money without much defense. I think Dlo is probably worth about 20 given his recent regression and overall inconsistency. I think other teams might over pay him in free agency. Trading his bird rights as part of a multi team deal seems likely. Maybe with Simmons or Westbrook.


His ceiling is an illusion. Nothing but style and hype. Wiggins has length and 95th percentile athleticism, Maxey has elite handle and ability to get to the basket. D-Lo is bottom tier in both of these things.
Russell is at his absolute best a Sam Cassell style PG with a slightly better jump shot.

He is going to be a MLE player next summer and no one will care about his bird rights, but they will DEFINITELY care at the trade deadline that they can unload ~37 mil a year in future salary by taking back his expiring.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#554 » by younggunsmn » Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:28 am

shrink wrote:I think there is only one PG we could trade for that it wouldn’t take a year for him to learn to feed Gobert.

And that’s Mike Conley.

Unfortunately, Rudy might have wanted to get out of Utah to escape the aging Conley’s poor defense, which always made him look bad as opponents came at him with a head of steam. Moreover, even if the extra guaranteed money on Conley’s deal made it a fair swap for DLo’s expiring deal, UTA is disincentivized to trade him to us, because improving the Wolves decreases the value of the MIN picks they own.

I think we better get used to DLo, and hope he starts developing a connection with Gobert soon. But most likely, this is a multi-year situation, and we need to accept some struggling this year.

Edit: I also wanted to point out that Rudy would get frustrated because Donovan Mitchell couldn’t/wouldn’t feed him, and I think he expects Ant to be better. He hasn’t been. But it may not be intentional.


I think this "playing with Gobert" thing is overblown.
There are just a few simple rules you have to follow and #1 is don't ever pass him the ball below his chest (and don't ever, ever throw him a bounce pass).

Rudy is a weapon, but not one that should be featured.
He's not a very good post player.
He draws a lot of rim gravity and you don't need to throw lobs to him all game to utilize that.
This primarily helps KAT, who teams gameplanned double teaming him with a big last year with great success.
This worked because Vando wasnt a finisher. Teams have enough respect for Gobert they arent going to double off him like that.
I'd like to see 30-40% of Rudy's baskets assisted by KAT, and I think those two have for the most part clicked.

A lot of our bad live-ball turnover problems have come from trying to force-feed Rudy, D-Lo especially.
Usually after passing up an open free throw line jumper. A 10-12 footer head on to the basket is much better than a turnover forcing a bad lob or bounce pass. It also puts Rudy right in position for a putback which is almost as good as a lob pass.
A D-Lo or Ant pNR with Rudy should also open up a lot of slot or corner 3-pointers, and one of the biggest improvements I've seen is that we are making the easy pass, going for the hockey assist rather than the home run pass.

It's also more effective to get rudy the ball when attacking the defense from the sides rather than the top of the key as it moves the defense laterally instead of allowing it to just collapse inward. Kat has been very effective doing this.
Ant had a nice lob to Rudy off of exactly this kind of action.

I think a Gordon Hayward type would be the perfect kind of secondary ballhandler to play with Rudy.
D-Lo is suited to play with Rudy on paper, but he's going to have to eat in that 8-12 foot range because that is what most teams are going to be giving him.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#555 » by winforlose » Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:35 am

younggunsmn wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Domejandro wrote:I’m going to be honest, I really don’t buy the D’Angelo Russell takes.

By default, it will improve because he couldn’t struggle more, but even when he plays at his best (like last year), he is only a slight positive, on-the-court. From my perspective, I kind of think it is analysts coping with the fact that Minnesota has no reasonable pathway to exchanging D’Angelo Russell because of the team’s lack of assets and cap flexibility.

Ultimately, Minnesota is forced to bank on internal improvement, so I appreciate analysts trying to raise spirits by making parallels, even if a bit tenuous. That said, the improvement we should see is more-so a result of returning to the mean than due to some adjustment window.

If Minnesota had a reasonable pathway to trade Russell, I am relatively confident that they would consider those options. They don’t, so we just have to hope he starts making wide-open shots again.


I disagree. As I said before Dlo is a floor and ceiling guy. We pay him for his ceiling and rage at his floor. But that ceiling is high enough that he wins you some games. Other teams will see that ceiling and think they can find ways to get it to show up more. This was the Wiggins issue and GSW believes they have positive value in AW. There is a path to keeping him or trading him. The question is what is he really worth. Tyus is 15 and lacks the take over the game ceiling. But his floor is higher and he is more consistent. Meanwhile a guy like Maxey will get big money without much defense. I think Dlo is probably worth about 20 given his recent regression and overall inconsistency. I think other teams might over pay him in free agency. Trading his bird rights as part of a multi team deal seems likely. Maybe with Simmons or Westbrook.


His ceiling is an illusion. Nothing but style and hype. Wiggins has length and 95th percentile athleticism, Maxey has elite handle and ability to get to the basket. D-Lo is bottom tier in both of these things.
Russell is at his absolute best a Sam Cassell style PG with a slightly better jump shot.

He is going to be a MLE player next summer and no one will care about his bird rights, but they will DEFINITELY care that they can unload ~37 mil a year in future salary by taking back his expiring.


You say that, but I have seen the ceiling at work on multiple occasions. The play in and the Philly B2B last year are great examples. He has that IT factor ability that true stars have. The difference is most TRUE STARS can summon it on any given night. Ant is learning how to summon it, but keeps having dud games and trying to force himself to takeover when it just isn’t happening. Dlo has the passing ability and mid range shooting to be what we need. Sam Cassell with Rudy would have been unstoppable. Dlo has proven he can play PNR at an elite level, but he must be more willing to pass (both out of the PNR and in the form of a lob to Rudy,) and he MUST PLAY DEFENSE. He just takes way to many plays off. Dlo will get more than the MLE, but how much more is yet to be seen.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#556 » by Devilzsidewalk » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:58 am

I've decided I really want Tre Jones. His development path looks similar to his big bro so far. I think I'd be comfortable with a Tre Jones/McLaughlin duo.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#557 » by IceManBK1 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:30 pm

Spoiler:
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=LUIn0_j0cOR0m3KsV7xqSw

Dlo+McDaniels for Kyrie and Seth curry or patty mills.

Or package deals dlo+Gobert for Irving and Simmons. I think salaries are pretty similar and each duo fits the other team more.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#558 » by Domejandro » Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:45 pm

Sam Amico is so horrible of a source that I’m kinda teetering towards removing that tweet. He has less than zero credibility and should absolutely never be considered for serious basketball discussion.

EDIT: I decided on a spoiler tag because deleting it is unfair.

Regardless, if Brooklyn wanted to swap Kyrie Irving for D’Angelo Russell and something minor, Minnesota should comfortably take the risk, but complicating it beyond that immediately loses my interest.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#559 » by Devilzsidewalk » Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:18 pm

On court obviously a huge dub, but off the court, Kyrie's potential influence on Jaden and Ant is way too scary for me.
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Re: Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition 

Post#560 » by cmoss84 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:31 am

Ben Simmons. Dlo + ?
Get it done.
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