2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[Cubbies2120]

People are just ready to given Giannis a 3rd MVP. Rightly so, he had them well placed the first 1.5 weeks of the league, and he was dominating. I agree about his current knee issues which been plagueing him over the last 3-4 years.

IMO MVP right now is

Luka
Tatum/Embiid

If Embiid continues to play like this fo rthe next month I think he overtakes, especialy with Harden and Maxey out right now.

And if Luka and Tatum continue to play the way they are then they keep the lead.

Sorry but no chance Embiid is getting it over Tatum if the Celtics finish higher and he stays on his current pace.

Tatum's numbers have already started going down, and the Sixers are only 4 games behind.

4.5 games behind, and just lost Maxey.

Also "Tatum's numbers have already started going down", because of a 2 game sample size lol. Two bad games for Tatum, two historic games for Embiid and that's the reason that Embiid's even in the convo with Tatum right now.

Being 4.5 games back in such a small sample size is actually a lot.

Also, you have to pray for Embiid's health. He's already missed 4 games, if he gets to 10+ again it's hard to bet against history. Remember, there has been ONE MVP in the last 40 years that missed more than 10 games in a season, Allen Iverson, and he missed 11.

Embiid is on pace to miss like 20 games already...

[Bob8]

It looks to me that Luka has a little more time to win a title than CP3. Not being ball-hog didn't help him much in that regard, but he has set some difficult to break records in playoffs.

Looking at the history of ball hogs winning a title, time may not be on his side. Maybe he's the exception though. Changing style still looks like a better option to me.

How many seasons had MJ the biggest usage in Nba?

[eyeatoma]

And if Luka and Tatum continue to play the way they are then they keep the lead.

Sorry but no chance Embiid is getting it over Tatum if the Celtics finish higher and he stays on his current pace.

Tatum's numbers have already started going down, and the Sixers are only 4 games behind.

4.5 games behind, and just lost Maxey.

Also "Tatum's numbers have already started going down", because of a 2 game sample size lol. Two bad games for Tatum, two historic games for Embiid and that's the reason that Embiid's even in the convo with Tatum right now.

Being 4.5 games back in such a small sample size is actually a lot.

Also, you have to pray for Embiid's health. He's already missed 4 games, if he gets to 10+ again it's hard to bet against history. Remember, there has been ONE MVP in the last 40 years that missed more than 10 games in a season, Allen Iverson, and he missed 11.

Embiid is on pace to miss like 20 games already...

You said that last year, and then he missed a career low even after Covid. Yes, health will be key, but you can only play with the hand you got. You could say the same thing about tons of MVP candidates. Giannis has dropped now since his knee injury, Morant is out of th e picture as he'll be out for a while. Luka usually misses some time as well. Durant is old as ****, and usually misses 20 games, the only player who hasn't is Tatum, eventually he might miss some time too, but we'll see.

[Oscar9992]

It looks to me that Luka has a little more time to win a title than CP3. Not being ball-hog didn't help him much in that regard, but he has set some difficult to break records in playoffs.

Looking at the history of ball hogs winning a title, time may not be on his side. Maybe he's the exception though. Changing style still looks like a better option to me.

How many seasons had MJ the biggest usage in Nba?

Giannis has higher usage % than Luka & he is a PF but Luka is a ball hog & he is PG.

LOL

[Bob8]

Looking at the history of ball hogs winning a title, time may not be on his side. Maybe he's the exception though. Changing style still looks like a better option to me.

How many seasons had MJ the biggest usage in Nba?

Giannis has higher usage % than Luka & he is a PF but Luka is a ball hog & he is PG.

LOL

I believe every team wants a ball-hog with 34/9/8, 50 Fg% and 60+ TS%. And he's somehow second in steals.

[Archx]

LOL objectivity from Luka fanboys. I'm saying he's great skill-wise, but has a ball hoggish style/mentality, which is obvious to me since he stepped a foot on NBA floor. Kinda surprising for ex-Euroleague player if you have ever watched how game is played there. It's opinion shared by many and I don't care if you read it. With DFS, Bullock and Dinwiddie he won a second round series. Are they really that bad and it was pure luck ?

If Luka did not have a ball hoggish style but the mentality of CP3 and Booker, maybe it would not have been a 7 game series

Finally a Luka fanboy admitting it. Didn't hurt, right ? Ball-hogging is generally an NBA thing, it just happens that ex-EL player is on top of the tree. Booker is somewhere there as well. CP3 is not. And don't forget CP3 and Booker made the finals, while Luka has not.

See, I won money betting on Jokic's MVPs, will win from Luka most likely and being an euro I have no problem rooting for the guys. I'm just annoyed by all the crying of his fanboys about be it Mavs or NT teammates being always the worst and denying the obvious about his style, thus my initial reply.

I wish Kidd played Wood more than bench minutes that would probably help a lot.

But why are you comparing Suns to Mavs? What has one have to do with the other? It took Booker 5 years to get to playoffs and his average USG% was always over 30%, peaked at 33%. His best year was 36-39. Then CP3 joined and Suns finally put together a good and balanced roster, with an athletic center, a DPOY candidate and other good players.

Mavs AT THIS MOMENT, play the only way that they can be effective. They also played similary under Rick when a rookie DSJ had a USG% of 29% already. But that team finished the season with 24-58. Mavs (under Rick) still ran the same offense after the 2018 draft, except they suddenly started to be a strong playoff candidate and actually did become one in 2019/20.

Kidd more or less runs a similar system but is actually doing less coaching than Rick, so i don't know who you want to blame for that. But point is, Mavs had this style of playing for quite a while, it just wasn't as effective as it is now. If you want them to completely change it, then tell Nico to get someone like CP3 and Ayton or Bridges, etc.

[BoatsNZones]

Are other fans guilty Mavs traded an injury prone fringe all star in Porzingis, so Luka fans can't cry about the same ? Also Wood appears to provide a bit of what people expected from KP.

Worth noting KP looks better without Luka, Brunson looks as good or better. And their bench as a whole has been among the best in the league. It’s not a championship cast, but the record indicates as much.

Can you support your claims about KP and JB with some data please?

Not at home but Check their bbref pages: BPM, VORP, TS%, as well as EPM. All equal or better on equal or higher volume. Vast majority better since leaving.

[Archx]

Worth noting KP looks better without Luka, Brunson looks as good or better. And their bench as a whole has been among the best in the league. It’s not a championship cast, but the record indicates as much.

Can you support your claims about KP and JB with some data please?

Not at home but Check their bbref pages: BPM, VORP, TS%, as well as EPM. All equal or better on equal or higher volume. Vast majority better since leaving.

That was expected, no?

Brunson was on the rise, he proved in playoffs that he can be THAT guy. He would have fit really well with Mavs right now. And KP did have some great periods with Mavs when he finally looked like an all star but was way too often hindered by injuries. I remember how many times he needed 5 or 10 games to get fully back. He talked about it with the press and just when we thought he's fully back, boom, another injury. Was quite painful to follow lol.. Just look at the games played, 53, 43, 34 and then same year only 17 with Wizards so total 51.

It will be interesting to see if both can keep this up for the entire season and if they do the same in playoffs. Well, if KP can stay on the floor this time.

[Cubbies2120]

Tatum's numbers have already started going down, and the Sixers are only 4 games behind.

4.5 games behind, and just lost Maxey.

Also "Tatum's numbers have already started going down", because of a 2 game sample size lol. Two bad games for Tatum, two historic games for Embiid and that's the reason that Embiid's even in the convo with Tatum right now.

Being 4.5 games back in such a small sample size is actually a lot.

Also, you have to pray for Embiid's health. He's already missed 4 games, if he gets to 10+ again it's hard to bet against history. Remember, there has been ONE MVP in the last 40 years that missed more than 10 games in a season, Allen Iverson, and he missed 11.

Embiid is on pace to miss like 20 games already...

You said that last year, and then he missed a career low even after Covid. Yes, health will be key, but you can only play with the hand you got. You could say the same thing about tons of MVP candidates. Giannis has dropped now since his knee injury, Morant is out of th e picture as he'll be out for a while. Luka usually misses some time as well. Durant is old as ****, and usually misses 20 games, the only player who hasn't is Tatum, eventually he might miss some time too, but we'll see.

I didn't say it at the start of the season. I remember specifically mentioning the point about 10+ games missed by MVPs only happening once in 40 years.

Embiid is currently on pace for missing almost 20 games this year. Hopefully he can remain injury free, because he's gonna need to lead them to a top 2 seed OR be significantly better statistically than the other MVP candidates, which he wont be (only cause Luka is destroying the NBA right now).

So he's gonna have a worse record than Tatum, and a worse statistical year than at least Luka...I just don't see it. You gotta be doing some record breaking things statistically to win MVP with sub-top 4 seed.

This is Embiid's time to shine though! He's missing option #2 and #3, just like Jokic was all of last year. Let's see how he does with them both out.

[Braindesign]

Luka is phenomenal, but in third place behind Tatum and Giannis.

Tatum is the easy pick right now. Plenty of offensive explosive nights, fills up the stat sheet elsewhere when his shot isn't falling, plays lockdown D against anyone in the league and has his team with the best record in the league.

If the season ended today he should win the MVP, be first team all NBA and First Team Defense.

[greekbuck34]

Luka is phenomenal, but in third place behind Tatum and Giannis.

Tatum is the easy pick right now. Plenty of offensive explosive nights, fills up the stat sheet elsewhere when his shot isn't falling, plays lockdown D against anyone in the league and has his team with the best record in the league.

If the season ended today he should win the MVP, be first team all NBA and First Team Defense.

No it's Luka--->Tatum---------->Giannis-->Others right now.

Giannis after his injury/ies had his worst 5 game streak since 2015 and dropped off. Tatum is great but has the deepest team in the league and can win games by shooting terrible like he did in his last 3 games. He is close to Luka obviously because of the Celtics record but Luka has been more impressive with a worse roster imo.

Embiid/Curry/KD etc have too terrible records to count.

Lillard is still the dark horse for me.

[Triple M]

People are just ready to given Giannis a 3rd MVP. Rightly so, he had them well placed the first 1.5 weeks of the league, and he was dominating. I agree about his current knee issues which been plagueing him over the last 3-4 years.

IMO MVP right now is

Luka
Tatum/Embiid

If Embiid continues to play like this fo rthe next month I think he overtakes, especialy with Harden and Maxey out right now.

And if Luka and Tatum continue to play the way they are then they keep the lead.

Sorry but no chance Embiid is getting it over Tatum if the Celtics finish higher and he stays on his current pace.

Tatum's numbers have already started going down, and the Sixers are only 4 games behind.

66 games left in the season is a lot of games to make up 4 games, but for the Sixers to get to 55 wins, they need to go 47-19 the rest of the way. It's not impossible, but I don't think it is likely, and on top of that, Boston's play would also need to decline. Again not impossible, but probably not likely, and 2 unlikely independent actions make it difficult. I just bring it up because people underestimate how difficult it is to make up 3-4 games in the standings. After all, usually, the team that is being chased is consistent and winning 7 or 8 out of 10.

I think Embiid's path to the MVP has more to do with Jokic's path of last year than what Boston and Tatum do. I believe if Embiid gets to 50 wins and is the 3rd seed in the East, then Embiid has a good chance with the injuries pilling up now in Philly.

[mcvdang]

It's Luka and it shouldn't even be close. 1st in scoring, 1st in PER, 2nd in steals...Doesn't really have a 2nd or 3rd option on the team. Most unguardable player in the league.

[sunsbg]

If Luka did not have a ball hoggish style but the mentality of CP3 and Booker, maybe it would not have been a 7 game series

Finally a Luka fanboy admitting it. Didn't hurt, right ? Ball-hogging is generally an NBA thing, it just happens that ex-EL player is on top of the tree. Booker is somewhere there as well. CP3 is not. And don't forget CP3 and Booker made the finals, while Luka has not.

See, I won money betting on Jokic's MVPs, will win from Luka most likely and being an euro I have no problem rooting for the guys. I'm just annoyed by all the crying of his fanboys about be it Mavs or NT teammates being always the worst and denying the obvious about his style, thus my initial reply.

I wish Kidd played Wood more than bench minutes that would probably help a lot.

But why are you comparing Suns to Mavs? What has one have to do with the other? It took Booker 5 years to get to playoffs and his average USG% was always over 30%, peaked at 33%. His best year was 36-39. Then CP3 joined and Suns finally put together a good and balanced roster, with an athletic center, a DPOY candidate and other good players.

Mavs AT THIS MOMENT, play the only way that they can be effective. They also played similary under Rick when a rookie DSJ had a USG% of 29% already. But that team finished the season with 24-58. Mavs (under Rick) still ran the same offense after the 2018 draft, except they suddenly started to be a strong playoff candidate and actually did become one in 2019/20.

Kidd more or less runs a similar system but is actually doing less coaching than Rick, so i don't know who you want to blame for that. But point is, Mavs had this style of playing for quite a while, it just wasn't as effective as it is now. If you want them to completely change it, then tell Nico to get someone like CP3 and Ayton or Bridges, etc.

I'm not comparing Mavs and Suns, just mentioned players someone else brought into the discussion.

My understanding of basketball is that a PG should make his teammates happy by involving them more. I expect a lower usage from a PG for that. You have Curry as example of high usage player at PG position who won titles, but he's still a lot better playing off ball and obviously his teams were great at moving the ball. KP was not happy playing with Luka, Brunson was mostly backing him and Mavs fans wanted to trade him for a better fit. Curry was traded for a better fit, but his replacement didn't play well with Luka. This season he's looking to score more and rest of the players are suddenly worse. With Ayton situation and being a low usage player I even said I like the fit, but looking at how he was not able to get anything out of McGee, I now doubt they are good fit on offense. It's like Luka can only play with a roller type bigs and will marginalize a player like DA. If players had a choice I'm sure they'd prefer playing with someone like Jokic.

Anyway, as Bob8 said Luka has all the time to prove the doubters wrong and win a title with this style. Let's wait and see.

[ROballer]

Tyrese Haliburton should be added in this poll.


20.3 ppg 4.6 rpg 10.5 apg 1.9 spg 49/40/85 shooting splits. 3.65 ast/to ratio, 9 DDs' in 15 games, 6 20/10 games.

Pacers are 9-6 and he played every single game. Lack of team depth should also help his case(young roster).


Everybody thought they will tank and they might still end up doing so. But Haliburton belongs in the top 10 candidates as of now.

[Bob8]

Finally a Luka fanboy admitting it. Didn't hurt, right ? Ball-hogging is generally an NBA thing, it just happens that ex-EL player is on top of the tree. Booker is somewhere there as well. CP3 is not. And don't forget CP3 and Booker made the finals, while Luka has not.

See, I won money betting on Jokic's MVPs, will win from Luka most likely and being an euro I have no problem rooting for the guys. I'm just annoyed by all the crying of his fanboys about be it Mavs or NT teammates being always the worst and denying the obvious about his style, thus my initial reply.

I wish Kidd played Wood more than bench minutes that would probably help a lot.

But why are you comparing Suns to Mavs? What has one have to do with the other? It took Booker 5 years to get to playoffs and his average USG% was always over 30%, peaked at 33%. His best year was 36-39. Then CP3 joined and Suns finally put together a good and balanced roster, with an athletic center, a DPOY candidate and other good players.

Mavs AT THIS MOMENT, play the only way that they can be effective. They also played similary under Rick when a rookie DSJ had a USG% of 29% already. But that team finished the season with 24-58. Mavs (under Rick) still ran the same offense after the 2018 draft, except they suddenly started to be a strong playoff candidate and actually did become one in 2019/20.

Kidd more or less runs a similar system but is actually doing less coaching than Rick, so i don't know who you want to blame for that. But point is, Mavs had this style of playing for quite a while, it just wasn't as effective as it is now. If you want them to completely change it, then tell Nico to get someone like CP3 and Ayton or Bridges, etc.

I'm not comparing Mavs and Suns, just mentioned players someone else brought into the discussion.

My understanding of basketball is that a PG should make his teammates happy by involving them more. I expect a lower usage from a PG for that. You have Curry as example of high usage player at PG position who won titles, but he's still a lot better playing off ball and obviously his teams were great at moving the ball. KP was not happy playing with Luka, Brunson was mostly backing him and Mavs fans wanted to trade him for a better fit. Curry was traded for a better fit, but his replacement didn't play well with Luka. This season he's looking to score more and rest of the players are suddenly worse. With Ayton situation and being a low usage player I even said I like the fit, but looking at how he was not able to get anything out of McGee, I now doubt they are good fit on offense. It's like Luka can only play with a roller type bigs and will marginalize a player like DA. If players had a choice I'm sure they'd prefer playing with someone like Jokic.

Anyway, as Bob8 said Luka has all the time to prove the doubters wrong and win a title with this style. Let's wait and see.

By definition is wrong to doubt in a 23 years old player, who, unlike Harden, has proven that plays the best in playoffs, and has more success in his early career than MJ. People doubted MJ too and all what he needed was good second options and few great role players. It's more on FO to find him his Pippen than anything else. The same goes for Jokic. On the other hand, Suns built a great team around Booker, unfortunately, what we have clearly seen in last playoffs, he's few tiers below Luka.

[sunsbg]

By definition is wrong to doubt in a 23 years old player, who, unlike Harden, has proven that plays the best in playoffs, and has more success in his early career than MJ. People doubted MJ too and all what he needed was good second options and few great role players. It's more on FO to find him his Pippen than anything else. The same goes for Jokic. On the other hand, Suns built a great team around Booker, unfortunately, what we have clearly seen in last playoffs, he's few tiers below Luka.

It's not doubting the player, rather the playing style, proven to not win anything other than individual accolades. MJ and Booker are still good off ball players, which makes them an easier fit with the likes of Pippen and CP3. Yes, Booker had a bad series vs Mavs after starting hot vs Pelicans on his way to 50pts in the game he got injured. Mavs series was a mess with CP3 getting 37yo. No player did well with the leader struggling. This summer Luka lost to an outsider, while his team was a favorite to win the title, so making big assumptions from a series/tournament is silly. By the time Doncic reaches Paul's age he can have a few more of these loses, so be careful calling someone a choker so freely.

[Oscar9992]

It's Luka and it shouldn't even be close. 1st in scoring, 1st in PER, 2nd in steals...Doesn't really have a 2nd or 3rd option on the team. Most unguardable player in the league.

Read on Twitter

[Bob8]

By definition is wrong to doubt in a 23 years old player, who, unlike Harden, has proven that plays the best in playoffs, and has more success in his early career than MJ. People doubted MJ too and all what he needed was good second options and few great role players. It's more on FO to find him his Pippen than anything else. The same goes for Jokic. On the other hand, Suns built a great team around Booker, unfortunately, what we have clearly seen in last playoffs, he's few tiers below Luka.

It's not doubting the player, rather the playing style, proven to not win anything other than individual accolades. MJ and Booker are still good off ball players, which makes them an easier fit with the likes of Pippen and CP3. Yes, Booker had a bad series vs Mavs after starting hot vs Pelicans on his way to 50pts in the game he got injured. Mavs series was a mess with CP3 getting 37yo. No player did well with the leader struggling. This summer Luka lost to an outsider, while his team was a favorite to win the title, so making big assumptions from a series/tournament is silly. By the time Doncic reaches Paul's age he can have a few more of these loses, so be careful calling someone a choker so freely.

The favourites were Serbs. Then it was Greece and Slovenia. Jokic went out 1 round before Luka and Giannis. In those tournaments anyone can win. The 1 tournament before Slovenia has won being 30:1 before the tournament.

Nobody is winning in Nba with 23 years unless he has a great team, when he's drafted, like Magic. I would say that playing in WCF is overachievement for Luka and the Mavs with roster like that. They basically needed only solid C to have chances for something more. Looney just destroyed Mavs' bigs in WCF.

MJ has the biggest usage in 8 seasons, in 5 of them, he has won a title.

Luka totally outplayed Booker in game 6 and 7. If Booker was in Luka's tier that couldn't have happened. After that series nobody will put Booker in the same conversation with Luka until Booker wins a title.

CP3 is great player, but in playoffs **** happened every time he could do something. He might be the unluckiest player ever or ...

[sunsbg]

The favourites were Serbs. Then it was Greece and Slovenia. Jokic went out 1 round before Luka and Giannis in the same round. In those tournaments anyone can win. The 1 tournament before Slovenia has won being 30:1 before the tournament.

Nobody is winning in Nba with 23 years unless he has great team, when he's drafted, like Magic. I would say that playing in WCF is overachievement for Luka and the Mavs with roster like that. They basically needed only solid C to have chances for something more. Looney just destroyed Mavs' bigs in WCF.

Luka totally outplayed Booker in game 6 and 7. If Booker was in Luka's tier that shouldn't have happened. After that series nobody will put Booker in the same conversation with Luka until Booker wins a title.

CP3 is great player, but in playoffs **** happened every time he could do something. He might be the unluckiest player ever or ...

Pretty sure Slovenia was the favorite with 8 teams remaining and lost to Poland, who lost by 40 next game. This loss is almost as embarassing for Slovenia as Gm7 for the Suns. I never said Booker is on Luka's level, just that he's a better off ball player so easier to fit with other ball handlers. Some of those CP3 failures were because of injuries, just like latest one. He is 37yo. Luka may not even play in the league by that age or with his eating habbits will barely move and become worst defender in league history.