Who is the WORST passer among these 90's sidekicks?

[MDA]

Pippen was a 5-6 assist guy, while Stockton, Payton, KJ, and Tim Hardaway were 10-15 assist guys.

This large gap demonstrates that Pippen is the worst passer among notable 90's sidekicks, while also having the worst efficiency ever for a playoff run of 15 games or longer and 35 minutes per game - he did this twice:

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

So given that Pippen had the worst passing and efficiency of any 90's sidekick, it's clear that people have it backwards - instead of saying that MJ "needed" Pippen, MJ should be praised for needing less passing and scoring help than his peers had.

A study of Pippen's playoff series shows that there are zero examples of him playing above a prime-Iggy or Wiggins-caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status.. Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals, while being 0/6 in FMVP - he's actually 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals and was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller 5/5 times when they faced the same playoff opponent.. These are just a couple gauges of Pippen's secondary level of production, which requires the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) - that's what differentiates MJ from other 1st options - he had to defeat maximum defensive attention for his entire career, as Kenny Smith explains at the 1:54 mark here:

Watch on YouTube

;t=01m54s


Accordingly, the proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing and efficiency among 90's sidekicks - the resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting, so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.

[Owly]

Pippen was a 5-6 assist guy, while Stockton, Payton, KJ, and Tim Hardaway were 10-15 assist guys.

This large gap demonstrates that Pippen is the worst passer among notable 90's sidekicks, while also having the worst efficiency ever for a playoff run of 15 games or longer and 35 minutes per game - he did this twice:

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

So given that Pippen had the worst passing and efficiency of any notable 90's sidekick, it's clear that people have it backwards - instead of saying that MJ "needed" Pippen, MJ should be praised for needing less passing and scoring help than his peers had.

A study of Pippen's playoff series shows that there are zero examples of him playing above a prime-Iggy or Wiggins-caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status.. Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals, while being 0/6 in FMVP - he's actually 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals and was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller 5/5 times when they faced the same playoff opponent.. These are just a couple gauges of Pippen's secondary level of production, which requires the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) - that's what differentiates MJ from other 1st options - he had to defeat maximum defensive attention for his entire career, as Kenny Smith explains here:

Watch on YouTube

;t=02m02s


Accordingly, the proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing and efficiency among 90's sidekicks - the resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting, so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.

Think this thread is mis-titled.

The impression is of a question but then the OP is confident that they know (comparing a small forward [and especially their assists] to point guards) and and is instead talking about the wrongness of saying MJ needed Pippen (as though it were mutually exclusive) and "A study of Pippen's playoff series shows that there are zero examples of him playing above a prime-Iggy or Wiggins-caliber". No series in which he played above the level of prime Wiggins ...

I'm quite open to the idea that Pippen gets overrated. But the above, the use of thresholds, of game score, of what Kenny Smith has to say; the absence of any mention of what Pippen brings defensively ... seems less than compelling.

[MDA]

Pippen was a 5-6 assist guy, while Stockton, Payton, KJ, and Tim Hardaway were 10-15 assist guys.

This large gap demonstrates that Pippen is the worst passer among notable 90's sidekicks, while also having the worst efficiency ever for a playoff run of 15 games or longer and 35 minutes per game - he did this twice:

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

So given that Pippen had the worst passing and efficiency of any notable 90's sidekick, it's clear that people have it backwards - instead of saying that MJ "needed" Pippen, MJ should be praised for needing less passing and scoring help than his peers had.

A study of Pippen's playoff series shows that there are zero examples of him playing above a prime-Iggy or Wiggins-caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status.. Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals, while being 0/6 in FMVP - he's actually 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals and was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller 5/5 times when they faced the same playoff opponent.. These are just a couple gauges of Pippen's secondary level of production, which requires the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) - that's what differentiates MJ from other 1st options - he had to defeat maximum defensive attention for his entire career, as Kenny Smith explains here:

Watch on YouTube

;t=02m02s


Accordingly, the proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing and efficiency among 90's sidekicks - the resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting, so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.

Think this thread is mis-titled.

The impression is of a question but then the OP is confident that they know (comparing a small forward [and especially their assists] to point guards) and and is instead talking about the wrongness of saying MJ needed Pippen (as though it were mutually exclusive) and "A study of Pippen's playoff series shows that there are zero examples of him playing above a prime-Iggy or Wiggins-caliber". No series in which he played above the level of prime Wiggins ...

I'm quite open to the idea that Pippen gets overrated. But the above, the use of thresholds, of game score, of what Kenny Smith has to say; the absence of any mention of what Pippen brings defensively ... seems less than compelling.

Pippen's defense was good but most of the Bulls' opponents from the 1st three-peat had better defensive ranking including the 91' Lakers, 91' Pistons, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers and 93' Knicks - that's nearly every ECF and Finals opponent.

Meanwhile, Pippen's offense had the worst passing and efficiency of any notable 90's sidekick, so people have it backwards - instead of saying that MJ "needed" Pippen, MJ should be praised for needing less passing and scoring help than his peers had.

And maybe the Wiggins comparison was a stretch but not a big one - Wiggins' Finals performance of 18 on 45% with good defense matched Pippen's Finals career of 19 on 42%.. However, Wiggins actually hit big shots down the stretch and provided some spacing, while Pippen had the worst clutch stats, spacing, passing and efficiency of any notable 90's sidekick.

Btw, Kenny Smith is historically correct - only MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) for his entire career... Everyone in history had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10 ppg in every SERIES and therefore always faced maximum defensive attention.

[tsherkin]

This is a pretty bad starting point. First, it assumes that APG alone = passing quality. So like, when Michael Ray Richardson averaging 10.1 apg grading out higher than he should, right?

Second, OP doesn't factor in the triangle, which is not a system designed for the generation of volume assists. It explicitly moved the ball around and suppressed the sort of individual point spam that creates that type of statistical production. That was a large chunk of Phil/Tex's philosophy, and how they helped enable the team's offense to escalate into the stratosphere.

Then, when OP goes on his rant against Pippen, he doesn't really discuss defense... which has always been the primary focus of Pippen's contributions. He also doesn't account for injury, or pace-specific considerations to statistics in the later rounds of the second three-peat, etc. He also doesn't really discuss the 94 Bulls and what Pippen represented to them.

There are lots of ways to appreciate MJ, but crapping on Pippen really isn't a good way to do it.

[Dutchball97]

Stockton - 10.5 apg career, 14.5 apg peak
Payton - 6.7 apg career, 9 apg peak
Tim Hardaway - 8.2 apg career, 10.6 apg peak
Kevin Johnson - 9.1 apg career, 12.2 apg peak
Penny Hardaway - 5 apg career, 7.1 apg peak
Scottie Pippen - 5.2 apg career, 7 apg peak

By saying Pippen had 5-6 assists and all the others 10-15 you're not showing the true differences. As seen above Pippen and Penny's assist numbers are right around the same, while Payton only had about 1-2 assists more than them. Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson hovered around the 10 apg mark but the only guy you can really say was a 10-15 apg player is Stockton, the man who has a Wilt-like lead on the all-time assists leaderboard. Others have already brought up how sheer assist volume isn't the entire story when talking about passing skills but it's telling that even the raw volume disagrees with your statement.

[henshao]

The irony and audacity of using the actual worse passer, Kenny Smith himself, to denigrate an all-time great like Pippen. The irony of using Hakeem Olajuwon's teammate to talk about "the only" guy who had ALL the offensive and defensive responsibility!

[Clyde Frazier]

Locking this thread. OP can come back with a genuine one next time if they'd like.