How many Jordan years would you take over Peak Kareem

[capfan33]

88-92, 93 is arguable.

[HeartBreakKid]

Could be, although I do have concerns about his defense.

who defends better

Basically all top tier centers, with the exception of Jokic.

How's about Moses?

[70sFan]

who defends better

Basically all top tier centers, with the exception of Jokic.

How's about Moses?

Yeah, I forgot about him. I'd say that Shaq is the 3rd weakest defender among top 10 centers peaks of the shotclock era (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Moses, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Duncan, Jokic), just ahead of Moses and Jokic.

[HeartBreakKid]

Basically all top tier centers, with the exception of Jokic.

How's about Moses?

Yeah, I forgot about him. I'd say that Shaq is the 3rd weakest defender among top 10 centers peaks of the shotclock era (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Moses, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Duncan, Jokic), just ahead of Moses and Jokic.

Would you have considered a pre shot clock era center like Mikan to be an elite defender?

[70sFan]

How's about Moses?

Yeah, I forgot about him. I'd say that Shaq is the 3rd weakest defender among top 10 centers peaks of the shotclock era (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Moses, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Duncan, Jokic), just ahead of Moses and Jokic.

Would you have considered a pre shot clock era center like Mikan to be an elite defender?

I have a hard time judging Mikan's defense. From what I have seen of him (which is equivalent of around 2-3 full games), he definitely was a positive defender with his size inside and Lakers defense was consistently elite, but I have doubts how much of that was caused by Mikan. I just haven't seen many high quality defensive plays from him and I don't think his individual impact was top tier. Teams back then rarely attacked the paint in the halfcourt, so rim protection was probably a bit less valuable in the early 1950s. I guess him being an elite rebounder helped Lakers a lot, so maybe that's something to consider.

[ShaqAttac]

Basically all top tier centers, with the exception of Jokic.

How's about Moses?

Yeah, I forgot about him. I'd say that Shaq is the 3rd weakest defender among top 10 centers peaks of the shotclock era (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Moses, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Duncan, Jokic), just ahead of Moses and Jokic.

i was talking shaq and mj d

[ty 4191]

Basically all top tier centers, with the exception of Jokic.

How's about Moses?

Yeah, I forgot about him. I'd say that Shaq is the 3rd weakest defender among top 10 centers peaks of the shotclock era (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Moses, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Duncan, Jokic), just ahead of Moses and Jokic.

Can you prove this statistically? I'm not being contentious or baiting. I'm honestly curious how you can rank players defensively with- for many of them- only a tiny cross section of their careers available on film.

I don't think Jokic is a bad defender, either.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-bolstered-his-mvp-case-with-his-defense/

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/fighting-the-narrative-nikola-jokic-is-not-a-bad-defender/1hsm3nijgbgnw1lr8c22k38clw

[70sFan]

How's about Moses?

Yeah, I forgot about him. I'd say that Shaq is the 3rd weakest defender among top 10 centers peaks of the shotclock era (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Moses, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Duncan, Jokic), just ahead of Moses and Jokic.

Can you prove this statistically? I'm not being contentious or baiting. I'm honestly curious how you can rank players defensively with- for many of them- only a tiny cross section of their careers available on film.

I don't think Jokic is a bad defender, either.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-bolstered-his-mvp-case-with-his-defense/

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/fighting-the-narrative-nikola-jokic-is-not-a-bad-defender/1hsm3nijgbgnw1lr8c22k38clw

No, I base it on watching these top 10 centers a lot and very closely. You can get some impact metrics showing that Shaq isn't elite defender, but you can't compare them to pre-1997 players. I don't think it's hard to realize that someone like Kareem, Wilt or Hakeem were better defenders than Shaq or Jokic when you watch their games though, especially if you do it closely.

Jokic isn't a bad defender, but he's not great and had very exploitable weaknesses.

[ty 4191]

None, I prefer 1974 and 1977 Kareem over any version of Jordan.

I think it depends on how long "peak" is. I think of "peak" as several years, probably consecutive, being at- or very near- the best player in the league. When I think of peak, I think of Jordan in the 90's, Wilt and Russell in the 60's, Lebron 2009-2018, Curry the past 7-8 years, etc. etc..

I don't think of it as just 1 season, or even just two. That's usually defined as something different for me. Although, Jokic and Giannis seem to have "peaked" the last 3-4 seasons.

What do you think?

[70sFan]

None, I prefer 1974 and 1977 Kareem over any version of Jordan.

I think it depends on how long "peak" is. I think of "peak" as several years, probably consecutive, being at- or very near- the best player in the league. When I think of peak, I think of Jordan in the 90's, Wilt and Russell in the 60's, Lebron 2009-2018, Curry the past 7-8 years, etc. etc..

I don't think of it as just 1 season, or even just two. That's usually defined as something different for me. Although, Jokic and Giannis seem to have "peaked" the last 3-4 seasons.

What do you think?

Peak is usually described as one best season on this board. Personally, I like it more as a 2-3 seasons of the player's apex.

[ty 4191]

Peak is usually described as one best season on this board. Personally, I like it more as a 2-3 seasons of the player's apex.

How many players have had one amazing season, though, and faded badly, or out of the league, thereafter? It's probably a ton of players. There are often flukes in sports.

Then again, how many players have had 4-5 (or more) truly great seasons in a row (and, then, not ended up being a truly great career player?)

[70sFan]

Peak is usually described as one best season on this board. Personally, I like it more as a 2-3 seasons of the player's apex.

How many players have had one amazing season, though, and faded badly, or out of the league, thereafter? It's probably a ton of players. There are often flukes in sports.

Then again, how many players have had 4-5 (or more) truly great seasons in a row (and, then, not ended up being a truly great career player?)

I value sustained periods of prime significantly higher than outlier peaks, but this is not what you asked about.

[ty 4191]

I value sustained periods of prime significantly higher than outlier peaks, but this is not what you asked about.

I totally agree!

It should be primes, not peaks. These threads all get extremely mislead because people, I think, are largely talking past each other with dueling definitions. It seems like that alone can lead to a huge waste of time, with most people bogged down in semantics.

A more interesting and to the point debate might be titled: "Who was better in their primes? Jordan (1990-1998), or Kareem (1971-1980)?" (something like that). Or: "Who had the greatest individual season between these two players: Michael Jordan, or, Kareem Abdul Jabaar?"

Something like that. Just a suggestion for those starting these discussions.

[Dutchball97]

I value sustained periods of prime significantly higher than outlier peaks, but this is not what you asked about.

I totally agree!

It should be primes, not peaks. These threads all get extremely mislead because people, I think, are largely talking past each other with dueling definitions. It seems like that alone can lead to a huge waste of time, with most people bogged down in semantics.

A more interesting and to the point debate might be titled: "Who was better in their primes? Jordan (1990-1998), or Kareem (1971-1980)?" (something like that). Or: "Who had the greatest individual season between these two players: Michael Jordan, or, Kareem Abdul Jabaar?"

Something like that. Just a suggestion for those starting these discussions.

Makes me wonder if we ever had a discussion about which players have the best x amount of seasons. Figure it'd mostly be a combination of MJ, LeBron and Kareem but could still be interesting to look at.

[OhayoKD]

None, I prefer 1974 and 1977 Kareem over any version of Jordan.

I think it depends on how long "peak" is. I think of "peak" as several years, probably consecutive, being at- or very near- the best player in the league. When I think of peak, I think of Jordan in the 90's, Wilt and Russell in the 60's, Lebron 2009-2018, Curry the past 7-8 years, etc. etc..

I don't think of it as just 1 season, or even just two. That's usually defined as something different for me. Although, Jokic and Giannis seem to have "peaked" the last 3-4 seasons.

What do you think?

Peak is usually described as one best season on this board. Personally, I like it more as a 2-3 seasons of the player's apex.

Will add I think its important people are picking specfic player seasons based on what they think are the strongest, not what might make another player's case look bad.

On realgm, I've seen people pushing 67 Wilt, 00 shaq and 91 jordan's peak as higher than 77 and 74 in part because they win a title and "went all the way". If this is a significant consideration, then shouldn't they be picking 71 and 72 as reference point? Kareem compares pretty favorably from an impact perspective to anyone i listed regardless(maybe not wilt but i'd need to refresh), so dinging him on "didn't win" with 77 and 74 seems off.

[ShaqAttac]

I think it depends on how long "peak" is. I think of "peak" as several years, probably consecutive, being at- or very near- the best player in the league. When I think of peak, I think of Jordan in the 90's, Wilt and Russell in the 60's, Lebron 2009-2018, Curry the past 7-8 years, etc. etc..

I don't think of it as just 1 season, or even just two. That's usually defined as something different for me. Although, Jokic and Giannis seem to have "peaked" the last 3-4 seasons.

What do you think?

Peak is usually described as one best season on this board. Personally, I like it more as a 2-3 seasons of the player's apex.

Will add I think its important people are picking specfic player seasons based on what they think are the strongest, not what might make another player's case look bad.

On realgm, I've seen people pushing 67 Wilt, 00 shaq and 91 jordan's peak as higher than 77 and 74 in part because they win a title and "went all the way". If this is a significant consideration, then shouldn't they be picking 71 and 72 as reference point? Kareem compares pretty favorably from an impact perspective to anyone i listed regardless(maybe not wilt but i'd need to refresh), so dinging him on "didn't win" with 77 and 74 seems off.

is 71 better than 91

[OhayoKD]

Peak is usually described as one best season on this board. Personally, I like it more as a 2-3 seasons of the player's apex.

Will add I think its important people are picking specfic player seasons based on what they think are the strongest, not what might make another player's case look bad.

On realgm, I've seen people pushing 67 Wilt, 00 shaq and 91 jordan's peak as higher than 77 and 74 in part because they win a title and "went all the way". If this is a significant consideration, then shouldn't they be picking 71 and 72 as reference point? Kareem compares pretty favorably from an impact perspective to anyone i listed regardless(maybe not wilt but i'd need to refresh), so dinging him on "didn't win" with 77 and 74 seems off.

is 71 better than 91

Well, unlike with lebron seasons, we don't have the benefit of APM to help us, but Kareem has several impact signals both as a cieling raisier and a floor raiser between 1970 and 1975 which strike me as significantly more impressive. Box-stuff for best years seems like a wash(ws/48 is split between playoffs and rs iirc, kareem dominates per, mj does better in bpm, ect.) but i don't put too much stock into slashline comparisons when you're talking about a big-man and a guard(kareem is almost certainly a better defender).


So, in short...probably? But it's not like the evidence is iron-clad