Is Dantley the best scoring peak for SF alltime

[ty 4191]

I don't think his age was the issue for him in Detroit so much as Daly just not asking him to be a volume centerpiece when they had Isiah, Laimbeer, Dumars and Vinnie Johnson, and on a defense-focused team.

The ESPN 30 For 30 Special "Bad Boys" certainly paints him out to be a stat chaser and very selfish teammate on the Pistons. He feuded openly and royally with- at least- Chuck Daily and Mark Aguirre over both playing time, and, his own scoring while on the team.

[tsherkin]

I don't think his age was the issue for him in Detroit so much as Daly just not asking him to be a volume centerpiece when they had Isiah, Laimbeer, Dumars and Vinnie Johnson, and on a defense-focused team.

The ESPN 30 For 30 Special "Bad Boys" certainly paints him out to be a stat chaser and very selfish teammate on the Pistons. He feuded openly and royally with- at least- Chuck Daily and Mark Aguirre over both playing time, and, his own scoring while on the team.

Aguirre wasn't on the team with Dantley, he was traded for Dantley from Dallas.

But yes, Dantley's attitude was called into question a lot on Detroit.

[ty 4191]

I don't think his age was the issue for him in Detroit so much as Daly just not asking him to be a volume centerpiece when they had Isiah, Laimbeer, Dumars and Vinnie Johnson, and on a defense-focused team.

The ESPN 30 For 30 Special "Bad Boys" certainly paints him out to be a stat chaser and very selfish teammate on the Pistons. He feuded openly and royally with- at least- Chuck Daily and Mark Aguirre over both playing time, and, his own scoring while on the team.

Aguirre wasn't on the team with Dantley, he was traded for Dantley from Dallas.

But yes, Dantley's attitude was called into question a lot on Detroit.

Please refresh my memory; who else was he fighting with on the team, besides Daly?

[tsherkin]

The ESPN 30 For 30 Special "Bad Boys" certainly paints him out to be a stat chaser and very selfish teammate on the Pistons. He feuded openly and royally with- at least- Chuck Daily and Mark Aguirre over both playing time, and, his own scoring while on the team.

Aguirre wasn't on the team with Dantley, he was traded for Dantley from Dallas.

But yes, Dantley's attitude was called into question a lot on Detroit.

Please refresh my memory; who else was he fighting with on the team, besides Daly?

I remember he was a bit sauced with Isiah for orchestrating a trade for his friend, though I don't know if that's true. Salley had very good things to say about Dantley and wasn't thrilled about the trade, IIRC. He wasn't on amazing terms with Daly but it's long enough ago that I don't really remember. I was like 5 when that trade went down, and have never been a Pistons fan (I was a Lakers fan at the time, heh).

[ty 4191]

I remember he was a bit sauced with Isiah for orchestrating a trade for his friend, though I don't know if that's true. Salley had very good things to say about Dantley and wasn't thrilled about the trade, IIRC. He wasn't on amazing terms with Daly but it's long enough ago that I don't really remember. I was like 5 when that trade went down, and have never been a Pistons fan (I was a Lakers fan at the time, heh).

Ok, I re-watched the segment. Dantley says: "I didn't like Isaiah, and he didn't like me." Dantley accused Isaiah or going to executive Jack McCloskey's office and demanding the Dantley be traded. McCloskey denies that ever happened.

"By starting the season with the 1988–89 Pistons, he is considered to be part of one of the top 10 teams in NBA history.[16] On February 15, 1989, midway through the season he was traded to the Dallas Mavericks along with a 1991 first round draft pick (#19-LaBradford Smith), in exchange for Mark Aguirre, due to what Dantley maintained were conflicts with Thomas, but also reflected Dantley's clashes with head coach Chuck Daly and general manager Jack McCloskey over his demand for a focal point role on offense and more minutes than Dennis Rodman."

The assistant coach goes on to opine that Dantley was essentially a toxic influence, and the team and management felt Rodman was a better player at that time. He says: "Minutes and shots were what was concerning to him." At one point, it got so bad that Dantley was screaming at Chuck Daly for trying to simply take him out of a game against the Celtics.

It really sounds like Isaiah and Dantley hated each other, Dantley also seriously challenged the power structures in place, and was shipped out as a result...

[Owly]

The ESPN 30 For 30 Special "Bad Boys" certainly paints him out to be a stat chaser and very selfish teammate on the Pistons. He feuded openly and royally with- at least- Chuck Daily and Mark Aguirre over both playing time, and, his own scoring while on the team.

Aguirre wasn't on the team with Dantley, he was traded for Dantley from Dallas.

But yes, Dantley's attitude was called into question a lot on Detroit.

Please refresh my memory; who else was he fighting with on the team, besides Daly?

Okay well for one that 30 for 30 would be a long time after the fact so I'd take that with some salt. Mind you I'd take everything regarding internal relationshps with a little salt.

My mostly otoh recollections ...

There's reporting of an instance of a shouting match with Dantley and Daly. I think Daly may have denied it at the time, but that might have been keeping things under wraps.

There's a general sense that the Thomas-Dantley relationship was strained though it's hard to tell how much of that is after the trade and a sense Isiah was behind it. There's some reporting that Thomas (and Laimbeer) were of the view that FMVP "going to Disneyland" money would be shared across the team, whilst Dantley would have intended to keep it.

Another angle is that Dantley would have bristled at ceding more minutes to Rodman.

That said Dantley's "teacher" label (to my understanding), seems to have been legitimate and was a mentor to younger players, I think especially Dumars and Salley and perhaps Rodman for instance in terms of looking after themselves (though I think I have heard some taking a cynical angle on this, this isn't my understanding of things).


Mind you it's very possible just to argue that Dantley was just about to turn 34, so with Aguirre nearly five years younger at the cost of a pick they were confident was going to be late they could extend their window, ease in more minutes for Rodman just by virtue of the change in scenery resetting expectations (and Aguirre being Isiah's friend).

Other factors/reporting ... the Pistons core was Jack, Chuck, Isiah and Bill and then everyone else. Dantley simply wasn't at the core and understood that. The departure of Versace, whom he was closest too and the nearest thing to a Dantley guy on the inside also hurt his standing/security. And honestly I pretty sure I've also read that at one point earlier in the decade McCloskey had made everyone available. "Trader Jack" just wasn't that sentimental.

My belief is Dantley very much wanted to stay and to win a title in Detroit.

My main influence (and I have just re-skimmed a bit of it) is Stauth's The Franchise.

[ty 4191]

Okay well for one that 30 for 30 would be a long time after the fact so I'd take that with some salt. Mind you I'd take everything regarding internal relationships with a little salt.

My mostly otoh recollections ...

There's reporting of an instance of a shouting match with Dantley and Daly. I think Daly may have denied it at the time, but that might have been keeping things under wraps.

There's a general sense that the Thomas-Dantley relationship was strained though it's hard to tell how much of that is after the trade and a sense Isiah was behind it. There's some reporting that Thomas (and Laimbeer) were of the view that FMVP "going to Disneyland" money would be shared across the team, whilst Dantley would have intended to keep it.

Another angle is that Dantley would have bristled at ceding more minutes to Rodman.

That said Dantley's "teacher" label (to my understanding), seems to have been legitimate and was a mentor to younger players, I think especially Dumars and Salley and perhaps Rodman for instance in terms of looking after themselves (though I think I have heard some taking a cynical angle on this, this isn't my understanding of things).


Mind you it's very possible just to argue that Dantley was just about to turn 34, so with Aguirre nearly five years younger at the cost of a pick they were confident was going to be late they could extend their window, ease in more minutes for Rodman just by virtue of the change in scenery resetting expectations (and Aguirre being Isiah's friend).

Other factors/reporting ... the Pistons core was Jack, Chuck, Isiah and Bill and then everyone else. Dantley simply wasn't at the core and understood that. The departure of Versace, whom he was closest too and the nearest thing to a Dantley guy on the inside also hurt his standing/security. And honestly I pretty sure I've also read that at one point earlier in the decade McCloskey had made everyone available. "Trader Jack" just wasn't that sentimental.

My belief is Dantley very much wanted to stay and to win a title in Detroit.

My main influence (and I have just re-skimmed a bit of it) is Stauth's The Franchise.

Awesome stuff. Thank you.

[Owly]

Okay well for one that 30 for 30 would be a long time after the fact so I'd take that with some salt. Mind you I'd take everything regarding internal relationships with a little salt.

My mostly otoh recollections ...

There's reporting of an instance of a shouting match with Dantley and Daly. I think Daly may have denied it at the time, but that might have been keeping things under wraps.

There's a general sense that the Thomas-Dantley relationship was strained though it's hard to tell how much of that is after the trade and a sense Isiah was behind it. There's some reporting that Thomas (and Laimbeer) were of the view that FMVP "going to Disneyland" money would be shared across the team, whilst Dantley would have intended to keep it.

Another angle is that Dantley would have bristled at ceding more minutes to Rodman.

That said Dantley's "teacher" label (to my understanding), seems to have been legitimate and was a mentor to younger players, I think especially Dumars and Salley and perhaps Rodman for instance in terms of looking after themselves (though I think I have heard some taking a cynical angle on this, this isn't my understanding of things).


Mind you it's very possible just to argue that Dantley was just about to turn 34, so with Aguirre nearly five years younger at the cost of a pick they were confident was going to be late they could extend their window, ease in more minutes for Rodman just by virtue of the change in scenery resetting expectations (and Aguirre being Isiah's friend).

Other factors/reporting ... the Pistons core was Jack, Chuck, Isiah and Bill and then everyone else. Dantley simply wasn't at the core and understood that. The departure of Versace, whom he was closest too and the nearest thing to a Dantley guy on the inside also hurt his standing/security. And honestly I pretty sure I've also read that at one point earlier in the decade McCloskey had made everyone available. "Trader Jack" just wasn't that sentimental.

My belief is Dantley very much wanted to stay and to win a title in Detroit.

My main influence (and I have just re-skimmed a bit of it) is Stauth's The Franchise.

Awesome stuff. Thank you.

Just a bit more timeline stuff from The Franchise
The suggestion seems to be that the Daly-Dantley shouting was at practice on or around 31st January based on being the same day as an Aguirre absence from a game versus the Jazz (and contained something to the effect of "and that's why we're going to trade your butt") and that communication had been poor for about a month. There's the suggestion that around the Boston game (Jan 16th) was when Daly got the sense that Dantley could, perhaps should, be traded, based on a sense that he couldn't communicate with Dantley. It also suggests things seemed better after the flare up.

Oh and it has Salley reaction to the trade as "S**t! How could they trade the Teacher?" reporting that "his eyes were tight and his brow was creased with anger." He went to Dantley's room and Dumars was already there. A public quote from Salley that it was a cold business got a response from McCloskey that his remark "borders on stupidity" and that coalmining (McCloskey's father's occupation, I think) was a cold business.

[kcktiny]

Watch on YouTube

[penbeast0]

Interestingly, almost every quote I've ever read from Daly lauded Dantley for his work ethic and professionalism. I believe it because Dantley was traded but Frank Layden in Utah is the only one I remember calling Dantley selfish and a stat chaser (and he later apologized but I don't doubt that he meant it anyway). The feud with Isiah was real but Isiah feuded with other players, most famously Michael Jordan.