Best Player of The 80's: Magic (1979/80-1988/89) or Bird (1979/80-1988/89)?

[ty 4191]

This concept (comparing specific years, as opposed to "peaks") was discussed in another thread. I thought this might be a starting point for a robust, interesting discussion.

Using Backpicks and BBRef, I found the following; I thought it could be helpful to frame things, with league percentile rankings, (where available):

Regular Season:
Bird: 23.8 IA PTS/75 (89th percentile), rTS%: +2.9 (71st%), Passer Rating: 88th%, dRTG: 101, DWS: 48.8, DBPM: 1.9
Magic: 19.2 IA PTS/75 (67th percentile), rTS%: +6.9 (93rd%), Passer Rating: 99th%, dRTG: 104, DWS: 36.2, DBPM: 1.6

Playoffs:
Bird: 21.6 IA PTS/75 (80th percentile), rTS%: +1.4% (55th%), Passer Rating (87th%), dRTG: 103, DWS: 10.6, DBPM: 1.6
Magic: 17.8 IA PTS/75 (60th percentile), rTS: 8.9 (75th%), Passer Rating (99th%), dRTG: 106, DWS: 8.2, DBPM: 1.6

Thoughts, everyone?

[coastalmarker99]

Magic was better then Bird who declined massively in the postseason outside of four great years from 1984 to 1987.

Magic was also a James worthy turn over away from having a 3 and 0 record vs Bird in the finals.

[coastalmarker99]

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason.
In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game.

His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series.

His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games plus he had a 18.3 PER in the postseason.

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason.

He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG.

He had an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs.

He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers.
Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series.

The Celtics lose again with HCA.

The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league plus he had a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA.
Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs.

Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4).

In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs.
First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST.

Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason.
Bird then plays even worse in the finals.

As His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average.

His Finals TS% was just .527.

Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career.

This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year.

Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again.

His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534.
In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting.

In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV.

This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb.

Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons.

Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs.

The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next,

Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

[ty 4191]

Magic was better then Bird who declined massively in the postseason outside of four great years from 1984 to 1987.

Magic was also a James worthy turn over away from having a 3 and 0 record vs Bird in the finals.

That's all true, but, as a counterpoint, Bird played in a much tougher conference/division than Magic throughout the 80's, and especially the early 80's.

Read this:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/17/21258281/what-if-the-celtics-and-lakers-had-switched-conferences-in-the-1980s

The Western Conference had a winning percentage of .534 against the East those years.

-Bird played 758 games against the East and 303 games against the West in his career.

-Magic played 791 games against the West and 305 against the East in his career.

The Atlantic Division had a .553 winning percentage against the Pacific Division 1979-1980 through 1988-1989.

-Bird played 315 career games vs. the Atlantic Division. Only 161 against the Pacific Division.

-Magic played 396 games vs. the Pacific Division. Only 149 against Atlantic Division teams.

Strength of competition is paramount in sports.

[coastalmarker99]

Magic was better then Bird who declined massively in the postseason outside of four great years from 1984 to 1987.

Magic was also a James worthy turn over away from having a 3 and 0 record vs Bird in the finals.

That's all true, but, as a counterpoint, Bird played in a much tougher conference/division than Magic throughout the 80's, and especially the early 80's

.

Read this:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/17/21258281/what-if-the-celtics-and-lakers-had-switched-conferences-in-the-1980s

The Western Conference had a winning percentage of .534 against the East those years.

-Bird played 758 games against the East and 303 games against the West in his career.

-Magic played 791 games against the West and 305 against the East in his career.

The Atlantic Division had a .553 winning percentage against the Pacific Division 1979-1980 through 1988-1989.

-Bird played 315 career games vs. the Atlantic Division. Only 161 against the Pacific Division.

-Magic played 396 games vs. the Pacific Division. Only 149 against Atlantic Division teams.

Strength of competition is paramount in sports.

I don’t care about that when Bird declined in the finals against teams like the Rockets in 1981.

And watched another member of his team get the finals MVP.


Compare that to Magic who made Kareem his sidekick from day one in La.

As in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in eight of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)


Magic also outplayed Bird in the finals in 1985 and 1987 and should have been given the finals MVP both times.


As Magic Johnson averaged 18.3 points, 14.0 assists and 6.8 rebounds in 6 games in the 1985 NBA Finals.

He deserved to win the award over Kareem.


Just like he deserved another finals MVP in 1988 over worthy.

[eminence]

I'd lean Bird here by a tiny margin (I lean Magic by a small margin for career).

I've got Magic as a strong contender for GOAT offensive player at peak/prime (probably my pick on most days). Bird obviously very good on that end, but even at peak I've got him a step behind on that end, though fairly even at the start of the decade. I like Bird more defensively, and by a fair margin for the first half of the decade, but by the end I probably prefer Magic by a slim margin even on D.

I guess I'd say through '86 I prefer Bird by a small margin in general, but Magic closes out the decade strong while Bird fades.

RealGM RPOY shares over the period:
Bird - 6.147
Magic - 5.632

With Bird winning 6 of the first 7 seasons head to head (close loss in '82), before Magic closes out with 3 in a row. I think with modern voting trends Magic would've likely won in '85 as well.

Bird with 4 actual RPOY wins '81 and '84-'86, while Magic only got '87 before Jordan rose to the top (though I lean Magic in '88).

[ty 4191]

As in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in eight of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

1. So you don't care about strength of competition? Look at who Magic and Bird had to beat to even get to the Finals every year, regular season, and playoffs.

2. Top 5 Finishes in MVP Voting and MVP's during the 1980's:

--Magic Johnson: 89(won), 88(3), 87(won), 86(3), 85(2), 84(3), 83(3) = 7 top 5 finishes (2 MVPs) (one 2nd place finish)

--Larry Bird: 88(2), 87(3), 86(won), 85(won), 84(won), 83(2), 82(2), 81(2), 80(4) = 9 top 5 finishes (3 MVPs) (four 2nd place finishes)

[kcktiny]

Geez this is splitting hairs to say the least.

Both are 3x MVPs, both all-NBA 1st team 9 times (Magic in 89-90 and 90-91). One has 5 titles, the other 3, but that other was the better scorer and defender.

Let's just say they were the two best for over a decade and call it a day.

[Dutchball97]

Very close. Magic was more consistent but Bird peaked higher. I tend to lean Bird in career comparisons ever so slightly so Magic not having 1990 and 1991 here seals the deal for Bird.

[CharityStripe34]

Bird by a hair, since 90-91 are excluded. A very thin, balding hair.

[tsherkin]

A forever-interesting comparison. Very few pairs of players ever intertwined so integrally across a decade, and even fewer who shared such an overlap in what made them so intriguing and effective.

Bird definitely looked different at his peak, so there's a bit of a difference perhaps in peak versus prime when answering this question. Both of them had very strong teams, but as others have mentioned, very different in-conference contexts.

Bird struggled with his scoring in certain matchups. Magic also had some growth to work through as a postseason performer, which is sometimes forgotten.

[KPT1867]

This is such a difficult question. If we were talking about career, I would go Magic, but since we are limited to the 80s, I’m going Bird. Bird narrowly edges out Magic in WS (124.2 to 120.3) and PER (24.1 to 23.4), but the truth is from ‘87, ‘88, ‘89 Magic was much better.

[tsherkin]

This is such a difficult question. If we were talking about career, I would go Magic, but since we are limited to the 80s, I’m going Bird.

Do 89-90 and 90-91 really make that much a difference in the Bird v Magic discussion?

[HeartBreakKid]

Isiah Thomas.

He beat both of them AND Jordan. He was also the GOAT WNBA GM.

[tsherkin]

Isiah Thomas.

He beat both of them AND Jordan. He was also the GOAT WNBA GM.

C'mon, man. This has been a nice, serious conversation.

[Dutchball97]

This is such a difficult question. If we were talking about career, I would go Magic, but since we are limited to the 80s, I’m going Bird.

Do 89-90 and 90-91 really make that much a difference in the Bird v Magic discussion?

Do a MVP season and a MVP runner-up season with a finals appearance matter in a discussion between two players that are generally seen as very close and have relatively short careers to begin with? Surely you can answer this one yourself.

[tsherkin]

This is such a difficult question. If we were talking about career, I would go Magic, but since we are limited to the 80s, I’m going Bird.

Do 89-90 and 90-91 really make that much a difference in the Bird v Magic discussion?

Do a MVP season and a MVP runner-up season with a finals appearance matter in a discussion between two players that are generally seen as very close and have relatively short careers to begin with? Surely you can answer this one yourself.

I mean, you can match that off with Bird's earlier individual dominance, being one of the precious few guys to rock 3 consecutive MVPs, etc. His 1990 season was still quite impressive. You're basically arguing that one extra year of longevity matters more to Magic in this comparison. I respect the thought, I simply don't agree. IMHO, the argument for Magic is built around a different platform.

[Dutchball97]

Do 89-90 and 90-91 really make that much a difference in the Bird v Magic discussion?

Do a MVP season and a MVP runner-up season with a finals appearance matter in a discussion between two players that are generally seen as very close and have relatively short careers to begin with? Surely you can answer this one yourself.

I mean, you can match that off with Bird's earlier individual dominance, being one of the precious few guys to rock 3 consecutive MVPs, etc. His 1990 season was still quite impressive. You're basically arguing that one extra year of longevity matters more to Magic in this comparison. I respect the thought, I simply don't agree. IMHO, the argument for Magic is built around a different platform.

In short I think Bird takes the lead early in their careers and Magic starts pulling it back towards the end of the 80s but without 90 and 91 I don't see it being enough to pass Bird. I'm aware you can also make arguments for Magic based on all-time offensive performance and post-season consistency that might get him there even without the two extra seasons but to me it's just way too close for that.

[tsherkin]

In short I think Bird takes the lead early in their careers and Magic starts pulling it back towards the end of the 80s but without 90 and 91 I don't see it being enough to pass Bird.

Oh, I understand the impulse. I don't necessarily agree that it's enough, but that's a subjective debate. I just wanted to tease out some conversation because I love talking about Magic and Bird and wanted to see how you were valuing those last two seasons. It's a fantastic subject to talk about, no doubt.