How many PFs, since 1980, were better offensively than Amar'e Stoudemire?

[SHAQ32]

Just wondering. He was pretty good offensively there for a few years.

[penbeast0]

He was an efficient volume scorer but not a good passer which made his ts+ overrate him. Doesn't make him a bad offensive player, still very good, but you need that playmaking ability as well.

[tsherkin]

He was an efficient volume scorer but not a good passer which made his ts+ overrate him. Doesn't make him a bad offensive player, still very good, but you need that playmaking ability as well.

Passing is irrelevant to TS+, though, so that is not super salient. Scoring value vs offensive impact are very different conversations.

[Statlanta]

Dirk, Barkley, Malone, maybe Anthony Davis

[dooki667]

What do y'all think about Giannis vs Amare on O?

[DirtyDez]

Which Amare? Pre or post microfracture?

In his 22 year old season before knee surgery he averaged 30ppg for an entire playoff run. The way things were trending I legitimately think he would’ve been in the MVP discussion in 06 had he been healthy.

[penbeast0]

He was an efficient volume scorer but not a good passer which made his ts+ overrate him. Doesn't make him a bad offensive player, still very good, but you need that playmaking ability as well.

Passing is irrelevant to TS+, though, so that is not super salient. Scoring value vs offensive impact are very different conversations.

It is indeed salient as the OP asks about offensive value rather than scoring value. Amare was a terrific scorer, but his weak passing limited how much impact that scoring had.

[tsherkin]

He was an efficient volume scorer but not a good passer which made his ts+ overrate him. Doesn't make him a bad offensive player, still very good, but you need that playmaking ability as well.

Passing is irrelevant to TS+, though, so that is not super salient. Scoring value vs offensive impact are very different conversations.

It is indeed salient as the OP asks about offensive value rather than scoring value. Amare was a terrific scorer, but his weak passing limited how much impact that scoring had.

Salient to offensive value, to be sure. Maybe I misinterpreted your sentence, though. It looked like you were discussing TS+ overrating his scoring. I absolutely agree that his passing limited his overall offensive value. Kind of like Dantley, the sets in which he was involved were mostly about finishing after the catch.

Anyway, my bad, misread

[rand]

Amare's best offensive seasons came as an undersized center rather than a PF playing alongside peak Nash and a high quality offensive supporting cast on the league's highest pace team.

I'd put the following over him offensively in no particular order:
Dirk
Giannis
Duncan
Garnett
AD
Malone
Barkley

Maybe Zion too

Depending on what qualifies as a PF, other guys would be on the list. KD for instance is a PF today and is still better than peak Amare offensively. LeBron played most of his minutes at the 4 in several seasons. etc. KAT is playing PF this season and is probably better offensively than Amare.

[AussieBuck]

What do y'all think about Giannis vs Amare on O?

The best pick and roll guy Giannis has had can't dribble under pressure facing the basket. Give him Nash lol.

[Texas Chuck]

What do y'all think about Giannis vs Amare on O?

Giannis is much much better. This can't really be in doubt at this point can it? What more does Giannis actually have to do before people realize this guy is an elite offensive player? He isn't a great jump shooter, oh.

[Ron Swanson]

Without too much thought these are the obvious ones:

Barkley
Malone
Giannis
Dirk
Duncan

The next tier I could at least see an argument if we completely isolate offense:

KG
Davis

While I feel he's clearly above the 3rd tier of guys:

McHale
Gasol
Kemp
Webber
Bosh
Brand

[SHAQ32]

Without too much thought these are the obvious ones:

Barkley
Malone
Giannis
Dirk
Duncan

The next tier I could at least see an argument if we completely isolate offense:

KG
Davis

While I feel he's clearly above the 3rd tier of guys:

McHale
Gasol
Kemp
Webber
Bosh
Brand

Interesting to see Giannis and Duncan on the first tier with Barkley and Dirk; and Bosh in 3rd tier next to Kemp.

[tsherkin]

Interesting to see Giannis and Duncan on the first tier with Barkley and Dirk; and Bosh in 3rd tier next to Kemp.

Perhaps a playoff crack? Bosh was typically much worse come the playoffs with Toronto than he was in the regular season as the result of the slow, laborious way he played. Definitely part of some high-end, "beat up on the crappy squads" regular-season offenses, and obviously he found a way to fit in very nicely in Miami when he was no longer a focal offensive player (and much-improved on defense there, as well), but it makes sense that he ranks below Giannis offensively. And Duncan was able to participate in some very good offenses, though if my memory serves, that happened more as he took a lesser volume-scoring role and let Manu and TP shine.

[Jaivl]

Without too much thought these are the obvious ones:

Barkley
Malone
Giannis
Dirk
Duncan

The next tier I could at least see an argument if we completely isolate offense:

KG
Davis

While I feel he's clearly above the 3rd tier of guys:

McHale
Gasol
Kemp
Webber
Bosh
Brand

Basically this post but I'd bunch Duncan with KG and peak Davis as similar to Stat, I think.

[dooki667]

What do y'all think about Giannis vs Amare on O?

Giannis is much much better. This can't really be in doubt at this point can it? What more does Giannis actually have to do before people realize this guy is an elite offensive player? He isn't a great jump shooter, oh.

I'm completely aligned with your opinion on this. I was a lil shocked first couple posts didn't mention him.

[tsherkin]

What do y'all think about Giannis vs Amare on O?

Giannis is much much better. This can't really be in doubt at this point can it? What more does Giannis actually have to do before people realize this guy is an elite offensive player? He isn't a great jump shooter, oh.

Lingering perception, I guess. Aesthetic is king to very many people, even if errantly so in terms of evaluation rather than preference.

Giannis is a wild offensive monster. Carries forward into the playoffs pretty well.

Of course, this season in particular, he's actually come down heartily in terms of efficiency and is hanging just above league average (though that's 57.7% over 57.3% league average). In another league environment, that'd still be amazing, and of course it's early in the season. He is still generating 46% of his shots at the rim, however, and busting .587 FTr, putting IMMENSE pressure on the opposition.

Statistically, the early-going of this season isn't helping him in arguments of this flavor or that to some.

And ALL of that said, he's still having a better season than Amare ever did at any point in his career. I haven't even really touched on Giannis' passing, something which was never remotely a major strength for Stoudemire.

Personally, I don't really think there is any space to look at Amare and Giannis in the same breath as offensive players. One is a creator, a driver of offense. Statistically on a whole different level regardless of Amare's sexy FG% and excellent PnR/transition play. Stoudemire was an excellent finisher but Giannis is a whole other animal as far as putting pressure on the defense and creating for others.

[dooki667]

Im really having a hard time coming to any type of offensive rating for Stat. His primary contribution is his scoring but he misses a whole year and Phoenix finishes with the number 2 offense rating and number 1 ppg in the league. They barely miss a beat. And his entire prime is with Nash and these suns. One healthy NY year where his OWS and OBPM we're half his peak Phoenix numbers. How are y'all analyzing how much impact is Amare vs Nash seemingly being able to create amazing offense regardless of who's playing?

[SHAQ32]

Interesting to see Giannis and Duncan on the first tier with Barkley and Dirk; and Bosh in 3rd tier next to Kemp.

Perhaps a playoff crack? Bosh was typically much worse come the playoffs with Toronto than he was in the regular season as the result of the slow, laborious way he played. Definitely part of some high-end, "beat up on the crappy squads" regular-season offenses, and obviously he found a way to fit in very nicely in Miami when he was no longer a focal offensive player (and much-improved on defense there, as well), but it makes sense that he ranks below Giannis offensively. And Duncan was able to participate in some very good offenses, though if my memory serves, that happened more as he took a lesser volume-scoring role and let Manu and TP shine.

What are your thoughts on Kemp vs Bosh offensively? I know Reignman's had some good playoff series, vs. Rockets 96 WCS, and Bulls in the finals, but I don't think he compares.

[tsherkin]

What are your thoughts on Kemp vs Bosh offensively? I know Reignman's had some good playoff series, vs. Rockets 96 WCS, and Bulls in the finals, but I don't think he compares.

Kemp was good. Certainly nothing like Bosh as an iso scorer and nothing like him as a shooter, but obviously a much stronger player. Kemp was, for most of his career, fairly Amare-ish in terms of him being more of a finisher than an offensive dynamo. He also had the freedom, relative to Bosh, of playing not only on better overall teams, but not as the primary focal point of the offense, which changes things a lot.

I generally think of Bosh as the better offensive player, to answer your question.