Is Kidd taking Nets to finals greatest Floor Raising by PG

[migya]

Is Jason Kidd taking the Nets to two straight finals the greatest floor raising performance by a PG in nba history?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think what Nash did to the Suns was more impressive, by far.

[migya]

I think what Nash did to the Suns was more impressive, by far.

Considering team talent Kidd had far less on his and got past the Pacers and Pistons. Don't you think that's more impressive.

[SHAQ32]

Is CP3 the only guy that had noteworthy seasons for two franchises? Hornets 08 and Suns 21?

[Jaivl]

I think what Nash did to the Suns was more impressive, by far.

Considering team talent Kidd had far less on his and got past the Pacers and Pistons. Don't you think that's more impressive.

Kidd did have less talent (most years), but the end result was also much worse than the Suns. Lucky for him, he played on the East.

[migya]

I think what Nash did to the Suns was more impressive, by far.

Considering team talent Kidd had far less on his and got past the Pacers and Pistons. Don't you think that's more impressive.

Kidd did have less talent (most years), but the end result was also much worse than the Suns. Lucky for him, he played on the East.

As I mentioned, Indiana and Detroit were very good teams those years.

[migya]

Is CP3 the only guy that had noteworthy seasons for two franchises? Hornets 08 and Suns 21?

CP raised all his teams, especially NO, Clips and somewhat Phoenix. Good call.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think what Nash did to the Suns was more impressive, by far.

Considering team talent Kidd had far less on his and got past the Pacers and Pistons. Don't you think that's more impressive.

it's not like Detroit (50w and 50w) and Indiana (42w and 48w) were these incredible powerhouses in 2003. The Nets themselves were just a 52w and 49w team, and I think you're selling the talent level around Kidd a bit short, with the likes of Martin, Van Horn, Kittles, Jefferson who were actually good to very good players.
Moreover, that was a very defensively sound NBA team, Kidd to be successful needs some decent offensive talent around him, in my view moving him away from the classic floor raising PG archetype.

[eminence]

It was a good job, but being in a very weak East did a lot for him. I think I'd have it just off the top, but it was an impressive run.

Nash '06 and Curry '22 come to mind as my top immediate picks. Probably should be some Oscar seasons in there as well.

[migya]

I think what Nash did to the Suns was more impressive, by far.

Considering team talent Kidd had far less on his and got past the Pacers and Pistons. Don't you think that's more impressive.

it's not like Detroit (50w and 50w) and Indiana (42w and 48w) were these incredible powerhouses in 2003. The Nets themselves were just a 52w and 49w team, and I think you're selling the talent level around Kidd a bit short, with the likes of Martin, Van Horn, Kittles, Jefferson who were actually good to very good players.
Moreover, that was a very defensively sound NBA team, Kidd to be successful needs some decent offensive talent around him, in my view moving him away from the classic floor raising PG archetype.

Detroit was the same team without Rasheed, so they were a good team that was really underachieving. Indiana had very good players; Reggie, Jermaine, Artest and Brad Miller that I can remember. Martin was in his second season I think, Jefferson a rookie, Van Horn was awful and Kittles want much better. That team was young and not that talented, Kidd got every ounce out of them.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Considering team talent Kidd had far less on his and got past the Pacers and Pistons. Don't you think that's more impressive.

it's not like Detroit (50w and 50w) and Indiana (42w and 48w) were these incredible powerhouses in 2003. The Nets themselves were just a 52w and 49w team, and I think you're selling the talent level around Kidd a bit short, with the likes of Martin, Van Horn, Kittles, Jefferson who were actually good to very good players.
Moreover, that was a very defensively sound NBA team, Kidd to be successful needs some decent offensive talent around him, in my view moving him away from the classic floor raising PG archetype.

Detroit was the same team without Rasheed, so they were a good team that was really underachieving. Indiana had very good players; Reggie, Jermaine, Artest and Brad Miller that I can remember. Martin was in his second season I think, Jefferson a rookie, Van Horn was awful and Kittles want much better. That team was young and not that talented, Kidd got every ounce out of them.

in the first year the team was just 5.5 points better with Kidd on the floor, I suspect your overrating Kidd's impact (not saying it was small). And the Nets were just 5th best team in terms of SRS (=no HCA in the first round in the West), the Pistons and Pacers 10th and 15th. A big part of the Nets success was built on the East sucking at historical levels (Iverson's legend is built on the same foundation).
And those guys were good starter/rotation level players, not suggesting they were stars.

[Mavrelous]

Considering team talent Kidd had far less on his and got past the Pacers and Pistons. Don't you think that's more impressive.

Kidd did have less talent (most years), but the end result was also much worse than the Suns. Lucky for him, he played on the East.

As I mentioned, Indiana and Detroit were very good teams those years.

Billups joined in 2002 and Rasheed in 2004, Tayshaun was drafted in 2002, they weren't really all that good, the east was very weak back then, the real final were the WCF against the Blazers in 2000 and against the Kings in 2002, in 2001 Lakers had 16-1 record in the PO.

[tsherkin]

I think the Nets being one of the deepest and most coherent teams in a crap EC that was overwhelmed by the "single star" mentality of the time had more to do with it. Kidd's defense was a driver, and he deserves credit for that to be sure but no, I don't think that it's the best floor-raising we've seen. I think the EC was just very, very weak.

[Owly]

Considering team talent Kidd had far less on his and got past the Pacers and Pistons. Don't you think that's more impressive.

it's not like Detroit (50w and 50w) and Indiana (42w and 48w) were these incredible powerhouses in 2003. The Nets themselves were just a 52w and 49w team, and I think you're selling the talent level around Kidd a bit short, with the likes of Martin, Van Horn, Kittles, Jefferson who were actually good to very good players.
Moreover, that was a very defensively sound NBA team, Kidd to be successful needs some decent offensive talent around him, in my view moving him away from the classic floor raising PG archetype.

Detroit was the same team without Rasheed, so they were a good team that was really underachieving. Indiana had very good players; Reggie, Jermaine, Artest and Brad Miller that I can remember. Martin was in his second season I think, Jefferson a rookie, Van Horn was awful and Kittles want much better. That team was young and not that talented, Kidd got every ounce out of them.

Kidd was a very high impact player.

That said as arguments go ... this was a really good team that wasn't playing at the level of a really good team ... I question the value of what it means to be a good team by that measure.

Fwiw with Rasheed at the back end of '04 the Pistons were an incredible team, and whilst the longer term team blew hot and cold in the RS they weren't a sub three SRS team at their coldest. Even roster wise the Billups and Prince (10mpg 42 games) aren't where they would be later (though Billups was already very good). The Pistons that the Net beat were a 2.97 SRS team. That's fine. It's not bad. It's noting like a contender.


The Pacers that the Nets beat (3-2 but outscored in the series by a point) ... were -0.07 SRS (yes, negative) though given they got Artest and Miller for Rose, I guess their final playing strength was higher than this. Still, while upsets can and do happen in small series, this would not be thought much of a roadblock for any genuinely good team.

[OhayoKD]

Is Jason Kidd taking the Nets to two straight finals the greatest floor raising performance by a PG in nba history?

Nash did several bigger carry jobs. Westbrook also did a bigger one in 2016 and even 30+ curry absolutely smokes kidd here

[LukaTheGOAT]

Obligatory CP3 and Russ mention.

You take a look at Nash

2005-2008; 2010 PHX PS:

+9.53 rORTG in 2543 min Nash on floor
52.04% from 2
40.65% from 3

+2.01 rORTG in 708 min Nash off floor
48% from 2
35.08% from 3



In comparison CP3

2013-17 LAC PS:

+5.65 rORTG in 1526 min CP3 on floor
52.04% from 2
34.27% from 3

-2.34 rORTG in 687 min CP3 off floor
49.82% from 2
31.18% from 3




And then Westbrook

2014; 2016-19 OKC PS:

+3.20 rORTG in 2037 min Russ off floor
50.72% from 2
34.11% from 3

-11.94 rORTG in 532 min Russ off floor
45.38% from 2
29.37% from 3

Now CP3 and Russ were lifting offenses and therefore it makes sense we would maybe it easier to show a larger point differential when they come on, however the magnitude in which they mattered for their team's offense is staggering.

Westbrook is especially poignant because he wasn't considered the best offensive player on his team, but based on the on/off, it seemed like KD needed Russ more than Russ needed KD. Russ also did this this in a very cramped offensive environment with little spacing.

CP3 certainly sticks out for a large notable change. I am not saying he is Nash level and you need to consider the caveats I specified above, but he shows true superstar impact on offense. And while not the level of defender of Kidd, I do believe it is fair to consider him as like an all-league defender during the span.

[rk2023]

Tremendous run, but the Nets had a great team defense in addition to Kidd. Just with all-time great offense alone, I'd give Nash/Paul/Westbrook/Curry the shout as best floor raising efforts this century. This doesn't even include Magic or Oscar - whose efforts in various prime years would also trump Kidd's.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't know about greatest but thing with Kidd is he did this literally everywhere he went(Save Dallas the 2nd time who were already good). Everywhere he went(and its important to remember other than being drafted he was always traded for win now packages) his new team immediately got way better and every time he left that team went right back into misery.

Kidd led teams definitely have a cap on their ceiling because he was a sub-MVP level player, but he doesn't get nearly the credit he gets for his impact because his scoring stats are so mediocre and people are so conditioned to believe that's the only way a PG can influence games. Kidd is an aberration in that regard and some just refuse to even acknowledge it.

[penbeast0]

Frazier carrying the Knicks to a title with Reed injured in 73 probably superior though the Knicks had DeBusschere and Monroe for support.

[ronnymac2]

Of course it is. Upon being traded, this guy took a completely irrelevant franchise and brought them to the NBA Finals twice where they only lost to top-10 players ever. This guy gave the historically-great-defense Detroit Pistons of '04 their greatest challenge with a broken kneecap. This guy got an interchangeable mediocrity like Kenyon Martin a $90 million contract.

The floor of the Nets team was pretty damn low. Kidd brought them to being a top-5 SRS team with a number 1 defense that outcompeted a bunch of other teams and fell short because Collins, Williams, and McCoulough vs. O'Neal and Duncan is quite a mismatch.

I'd like to see another great pass-first PG have to - against their will - take the most shots for their inept offensive team and also change the culture and be the guy on defense night in and night out for more minutes than anybody.

Half the people reading this think Walt Frazier retired after 1973. Payton in SEA had monster teams that underachieved in some notorious ways. Steve Nash "turned around" a team in 2005 where the fourth best player ended up being a 7-time all-star. Curry and Westbrook only get to play with DPOYs, MVPs, and scoring champions.

So yes, considering who Kidd had to play with and what he accomplished with those players in short time, it was the greatest floor raising by a PG ever - relative conference weakness (by one metric - SRS) be damned.